Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[Greymere]

Okay, here are all the current plans (i.e. ones with at least one vote), arranged by both task (if there's a specific action you want) and overall plan.

Spoiler: By Task

[] You planted a cache of false information, meant to throw your investigations off any trails they might pick up. (Attempt to make the investigator's job more difficult, on all fronts)

• Plan Ritual Knowledge
• Plan Dream Warning
• Plan A Softer, Lunar Nudge
• Plan Let's waste their time
• Plan Other Velvet
• Plan Forge and Forgery

[] A very vague treatise about the Mansus, and the Lores. (This will have no inherent "Lore level", but attempt to point your investigation towards the existence of the Lores)

• Plan Basic Int Test
• Plan Ritual Knowledge
• Plan Insurance for the Future (Not a bad sister edition)
• Plan: Overview with a warning
• Plan A Gentle Nudge
• Plan A Colder Nudge
• Plan A Softer, Lunar Nudge
• Plan A Lunar Nudge
• Plan Insurance for the Future

[] A detailed treatise about one of the Lores. One, or several of them.*

• Plan A Gentle Nudge (KNOCK 1, MOTH 1)
• Plan A Colder Nudge (KNOCK 1, WINTER 1)
• Plan Forge and Forgery (FORGE 2)
• Plan: Loring up the Night lights. (All)
• A Foundation to Build On (Level 0)
• A Foundation To Build On (with Historical backing!) (Level 0)
• How to build basic defenses. (FORGE 2)
• Plan A Softer, Lunar Nudge (KNOCK 1, MOTH 1, EDGE 1, WINTER 1, SECRET HISTORIES 1)
• Plan A Lunar Nudge (KNOCK 1, MOTH 1, EDGE 1, WINTER 1, SECRET HISTORIES 1)
• Plan Let's waste their time (GRAIL 1, HEART 1, MOTH 1 - Encrypted)
• Plan: Secrets better left Forgotten (MOTH 1, Level 0)
• Plan Monoforging and Warning (FORGE 2)
• Plan: Reforging and Warning (Level 0)
• Plan Historical Precedent (Level 0)
• Plan Oh Shit They Can Summon Monsters (Level 0)

[] A "letter" sent from Windy Flakes. (Attempt to tell your investigators about Windy Flakes as a pony of interest)

• Plan A Colder Nudge

[] (WRITE-IN) The details of the Forge's Redemption

• Plan Basic Int Test
• Plan Ritual Knowledge
• Plan: Reforging and Warning
• Plan Monoforging and Warning
• Plan Historical Precedent (in the form of the base 1/2 ritual circle configurations)

[] (WRITE-IN) The Worms and their infestation of the Dreamlands / (WRITE-IN) Reveal the Worms and the threat they pose to everyone

• Plan Insurance for the Future (Not a bad sister edition)
• Plan Insurance for the Future
• Plan: Overview with a warning
• Plan Dream Warning

[] (WRITE-IN) Reveal the possession of Luna and the creation of Nightmare Moon

• Plan Insurance for the Future (Not a bad sister edition

[] (WRITE-IN) Plan warning about the Windigos (Details about Windigos and their jars; not summoning info) / (WRITE-IN) Information about Windigos (Details about Windigos, their jars, and their nature as summonable entities - but not how to summon them)

• Plan: Secrets better left Forgotten
• Plan: Reforging and Warning
• Plan Oh Shit They Can Summon Monsters

[] (WRITE-IN) Information about Ash-Ghouls (Details about Ash-Ghouls, their fuel, and their nature as summonable entities - but not how to summon them)

• Plan Oh Shit They Can Summon Monsters

[] (WRITE-IN) Reveal Lore related hazards*

• A Foundation to Build On
• A Foundation To Build On (with Historical backing!)
• Plan: Loring up the Night lights.

*Including both Night Light's and Foundation's write-ins under this, since they seemed similar enough for practical purposes

[] (WRITE-IN) A journal filled with vague ramblings about the disappearance of Luna after "The attack" (Reveal Copper's attack against/the possession of Luna).

• Plan: Loring up the Night lights.

[] (WRITE-IN) The old (presumed) journal of Starswirl the Bearded along with partial translation notes detailing a hidden path through the crystal caves of Canterlot. Clearly of immense historical significance, and possibly the origin of this esoteric branch of magic. Perhaps the Bureau should take charge of this investigation...

• A Foundation To Build On (with Historical backing!)

[] (WRITE-IN) Reveal the Lores as the ancestral magic of ponykind

• Plan Historical Precedent

Spoiler: By Plan

[] Plan Basic Int Test
-[] A very vague treatise about the Mansus, and the Lores. (This will have no inherent "Lore level", but attempt to point your investigation towards the existence of the Lores)
-[] (WRITE-IN) The details of the Forge's Redemption

[] Plan Ritual Knowledge
-[] You planted a cache of false information, meant to throw your investigations off any trails they might pick up. (Attempt to make the investigator's job more difficult, on all fronts)
-[] A very vague treatise about the Mansus, and the Lores. (This will have no inherent "Lore level", but attempt to point your investigation towards the existence of the Lores)
-[] (WRITE-IN) The details of the Forge's Redemption

[] Plan Insurance for the Future
-[] A very vague treatise about the Mansus, and the Lores. (This will have no inherent "Lore level", but attempt to point your investigation towards the existence of the Lores)
-[] Reveal the Worms and the threat they pose to everyone

[] Plan Insurance for the Future (Not a bad sister edition)
-[] A very vague treatise about the Mansus, and the Lores. (This will have no inherent "Lore level", but attempt to point your investigation towards the existence of the Lores)
-[] Reveal the Worms and the threat they pose to everyone.
-[] Reveal the possession of Luna and the creation of Nightmare Moon.

[] Plan: Overview with a warning
-[] A very vague treatise about the Mansus, and the Lores. (This will have no inherent "Lore level", but attempt to point your investigation towards the existence of the Lores)
-[] (WRITE-IN) The Worms and their infestation of the Dreamlands

[] Plan: Reforging and Warning
-[] Plant warning about Wendigos (Details about Wendigos and their jars, not summoning info)
-[] Plant a basic treaties on the lores (Lore level 0)
-[] Plant the details of the Forge's Redemption

[] Plan Monoforging and Warning
-[] Plant warning about Wendigos (Details about Wendigos and their jars, not summoning info)
-[] Plant a detailed treatise about one of the Lores. One, or several of them. (Forge 2)
-[] Plant the details of the Forge's Redemption

[] Plan Dream Warning
-[] You planted a cache of false information, meant to throw your investigations off any trails they might pick up. (Attempt to make the investigator's job more difficult, on all fronts)
-[] (WRITE-IN) The Worms and their infestation of the Dreamlands

[] Plan: Secrets better left Forgotten
-[] Plant Lore Manuscript detailing the hiding of Changelings (Moth 1)
-[] Plant warning about Wendigos (Details about Wendigos and their jars, not summoning info)
-[] Plant a basic treaties on the lores (Lore level 0)

[] Plan A Gentle Nudge
-[] A very vague treatise about the Mansus, and the Lores. (This will have no inherent "Lore level", but attempt to point your investigation towards the existence of the Lores)
-[] A detailed treatise about one of the Lores. One, or several of them. (KNOCK 1, MOTH 1)

[] Plan A Colder Nudge
-[] A very vague treatise about the Mansus, and the Lores. (This will have no inherent "Lore level", but attempt to point your investigation towards the existence of the Lores)
-[] A detailed treatise about one of the Lores. One, or several of them. (KNOCK 1, WINTER 1)
-[] A "letter" sent from Windy Flakes. (Attempt to tell your investigators about Windy Flakes as a pony of interest)

[] Plan A Lunar Nudge
-[] A very vague treatise about the Mansus, and the Lores. (This will have no inherent "Lore level", but attempt to point your investigation towards the existence of the Lores)
-[] A detailed treatise about one of the Lores. One, or several of them. (KNOCK 1, MOTH 1, EDGE 1, WINTER 1, SECRET HISTORIES 1)

[] Plan A Softer, Lunar Nudge
-[] You planted a cache of false information, meant to throw your investigations off any trails they might pick up. (Attempt to make the investigator's job more difficult, on all fronts)
-[] A very vague treatise about the Mansus, and the Lores. (This will have no inherent "Lore level", but attempt to point your investigation towards the existence of the Lores)
-[] A detailed treatise about one of the Lores. One, or several of them. (KNOCK 1, MOTH 1, EDGE 1, WINTER 1, SECRET HISTORIES 1)

[] Plan Forge and Forgery
-[] (WRITE-IN) You planted a fake evidence pointing toward changelings involvement
-[] A detailed treatise about one of the Lores. One, or several of them. (FORGE: Level 2 )

[] Plan: Loring up the Night lights.
-[] A detailed treatise about one of the Lores. One, or several of them. (You will leave pre-prepared copies of Lore manuscripts
-[] A detailed treatise about one of the Lores. One, or several of them. (Everything, the entire library and the kitchen sink)
-[] (WRITE IN) General warnnings about the dangers of The Lores and The Mansus (Worms in your Dreams, Wolves at your heels, etc...)
-[] (WRITE IN) A journal filled with vauge rambelings about the disaperance of Luna after "The attack" (Reveal Copper's attack against/ the possession of Luna).

[] A Foundation To Build On
-[] A detailed treatise about one of the Lores. One, or several of them. (You will leave a basic compendium of the essential Lores, a sort of primer seemingly intended to instruct new inductees to the cult and help them identify their personal affinities)
-[] Another pamphlet, detailing basic Lore-related hazards such as Fascination, again seemingly directed towards a prospective cultist making the jump from level 0 to level 1 in a prospective Lore.
-[] Evidence that perpetrators planned not only to kill Velvet but also replace her (detailed study of her behavior, evidence of training in hoofwriting similar to hers and so on).

[] A Foundation To Build On (with Historical backing!)
-[] A detailed treatise about one of the Lores. One, or several of them. (You will leave a basic compendium of the essential Lores, a sort of primer seemingly intended to instruct new inductees to the cult and help them identify their personal affinities)
-[] Another pamphlet, detailing basic Lore-related hazards such as Fascination, again seemingly directed towards a prospective cultist making the jump from level 0 to level 1 in a prospective Lore.
-[] Evidence that perpetrators planned not only to kill Velvet but also replace her (detailed study of her behavior, evidence of training in hoofwriting similar to hers and so on).
-[] The old (presumed) journal of Starswirl the Bearded along with partial translation notes detailing a hidden path through the crystal caves of Canterlot. Clearly of immense historical significance, and possibly the origin of this esoteric branch of magic. Perhaps the Bureau should take charge of this investigation...

[] How to build basic defenses.
-[] A detailed treatise about one of the Lores. One, or several of them. (FORGE: Level 2 )
[] Plan Let's waste their time
-[] You planted a cache of false information, meant to throw your investigations off any trails they might pick up. (Attempt to make the investigator's job more difficult, on all fronts)
-[] (WRITE-IN)You planted an encrypted treatise about Lores that are decodable but meant to delay/complicate their study (Grail: Level 1, Heart: Level 1 Moth: Level 1, Grail lvl 1 )

[] Plan Other Velvet
-[] You planted a cache of false information, meant to throw your investigations off any trails they might pick up. (Attempt to make the investigator's job more difficult, on all fronts)
-[] (WRITE-IN) Evidence that perpetrators planned not only to kill Velvet but also replace her (detailed study of her behavior, evidence of training in hoofwriting similar to hers and so on).

[] Plan Historical Precedent
-[] A basic treatise on the Lores (Lore Level 0)
-[] (WRITE-IN) Reveal the Lores as the ancestral magic of ponykind
-[] (WRITE-IN) Reveal the one- and two-circle ritual configurations

[] Plan Oh Shit They Can Summon Monsters
-[] (WRITE-IN) Information about Windigos (Details about Windigos, their jars, and their nature as summonable entities - but not how to summon them)
-[] (WRITE-IN) Information about Ash-Ghouls (Details about Ash-Ghouls, their fuel, and their nature as summonable entities - but not how to summon them)
-[] A basic treatise on the lores (Lore Level 0)

And of course, there are some loose votes floating around for some of the options, and there's the non-plan option of "Nothing".

Anyway, as I was making this list, I had a thought. @OurLadyOfWires could Velvet like, write down the visions she had when analyzing the Doors to try and frame the Lores as, essentially, the long-lost ancestral magic of ponykind rather than just general mystery spooky magic?

 

[Greymere]

Frankly if the Ponies don't have a rapid response force 10k strong ready an able to teleport to any area of Equestria 10 in minuets flat, that on them. That the bare minimum basic level, stuff they should have for their level magical ability. Especially with the recent militarization the nation is undergoing.

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Buddy. Long-range teleportation is extremely high level magic. As in, the only characters we have demonstrably seen able to perform it are Celestia, Luna, and Cadance (basically Harmony-flavored Names), Twilight (the Element of Magic, and still only across a short range), and the Daughter-of-Axes (Name of the Lore of Opening). Your expectations are way too high for a setting that mostly runs on a select few very powerful individuals, as is pointed out in the opening post of this very quest.

 

[Sveta08]

So the Bureau might not take it seriously if there are a bunch of papers talking about Windigos being summoned using ritualistic circles and being put in jars.

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Pray forgive the repetition, but here and for now, I will repeat myself.

No, it doesn't _prove_ anything. Nothing here will. Don't level that strawman at me.

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We cannot make the Bureau believed any of this. Not from changelings to lore to rituals to Wendigos. Not Names, or Manus, nor Worms! That, is not what is being discussed, and I would not have you muddy the waters by hiding behind the shield of disbelief! That is inherent to all plans!

The best we can do is pray equip them with the tools that they might use them and surrounded by information to make it seem credible. Beyond that it is out of our hands. And just because it is out of our hands, I wouldst not turn a blind eye and let pieces fall what may!

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

You are a fool and a detractor. Even the word of QM spoke out against such an idea. Equestria is designed ground up to promote Harmony. Wendigos laugh and prey upon such things sowing and reaping disquiet and fear where are they fly. And where shall these five thousand royal guards come from? Can they all fly and give chase? Shouldst so many exist, then the Wendigos must need only harry and harm them, a war of attrition, peeling and tearing away into their ranks one by one. With Paranoia nipping at their heels, with Evil back in the world... I wouldst not give Ash a voice made of cold and suffering. Nothing, I repeat, nothing exists in a vacuum.

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Windigos do not laugh and prey upon Harmony. They got blasted in the face, punted far far away, and had their apocalypse cancelled by Harmony. They hate Harmony, so it will be less laughing and more incoherent screeching as they work to kill as many ponies as is possible. Harmony, however, isn't super active at the moment, what with its Element Gambit having been kneecapped, so it is kind of a non-factor here. Secondly, Windigos are on a timer like all Summoned creatures are. Three Windigos will not make an apocalypse. They won't give any Wolves a permanent Wake Army or a voice.

No, this will lead to a completely different apocalypse, as I shall explain in response to this:

None of this actually accomplishes your goal thou. Wendigos are a none factor 3 or even 10 Wendigos die when Equestira sends 5,000 royal guard to handle them. And important Wendigos are a known issue that Equestria is designed from the ground up to handle.

Giving them details of the Forge's Redemption does nothing because the cannot understand it. Only people that have passed into the Mansus proper have the information to utilize circles. To them it will just look like a weird spell that when they try it will do nothing, because they lack the fundamental lore knowledge.

Just giving them Forge 2 lore does more for you stated goals then your currant plan. As they might actually be able to get into the Mansus to start learning the Lore's proper. Reminder you instantly learn Forge's redemption upon getting into the Mansus.

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Did you not read the assault on the Changeling Hive? 10 Windigos can very easily freeze an army of combatants to death. They have done so in-quest. To say nothing of how many ponies they can kill in the time it takes the Royal Guard to muster and sally forth. Or how many agents the Bureau would lose from poking those jars and getting a surprise Windigo to the face. And another mass killing of ponies occurring right in front of the Bureau she made to stop such bullshit could push Celestia further into Dawnbreaker territory, which would be really bad. I don't want to deal with hyperthermia, I don't want to deal with a crazy omnicidal Alicorn, I especially don't want said psycho sun exploring the Mansus, finding Ash, and declaring this the best thing ever as she used the knowledge gained from there to burninate the world even better.

As for the Forge's Redemption, I want to give a test and a reward. The reward being the ability to use the ritual, the test being to pursue the Lores to get there. I suppose I could give them Forge instead of the general treatise. Eh, I'll make a variant that does so, I guess, even if I prefer giving a bureau a little taste of all the Lores over giving them a big dose of one.

@OurLadyOfWires , does planting higher Lore Levels mean planting multiple manuscripts to build to that level, or just one higher-level manuscript?

[X] Plan Monoforging and Warning
-[X] Plant warning about Wendigos (Details about Wendigos and their jars, not summoning info)
-[X] Plant a detailed treatise about one of the Lores. One, or several of them. (Forge 2)
-[X] Plant the details of the Forge's Redemption

[X] Plan: Reforging and Warning
-[X] Plant warning about Windigos (Details about Wendigos and their jars, not summoning info)
-[X] Plant a very vague treatise about the Mansus, and the Lores. (This will have no inherent "Lore level", but attempt to point your investigation towards the existence of the Lores)
-[X] Plant the details of the Forge's Redemption

 

[DelightedOne]

Frankly if the Ponies don't have a rapid response force 10k strong ready an able to teleport to any area of Equestria 10 in minuets flat, that on them. That the bare minimum basic level, stuff they should have for their level magical ability. Especially with the recent militarization the nation is undergoing.

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Okay, let's not blame the pacifist nation who hasn't seen war on millenia, that are also the most powerful in the World, composed of the beings the World belongs to by supernatural law and is ruled by a demigoddess who controled the sun and the moon for over a thousand years alone.

Also:
1. Equestria is huge and hasn't had any major issues for a very long time. Teleportation is also not as common as you seen to think it is.

2. How many adult ponies there are that went to military jobs is unknown to us, as is the size of the population(especially post-Catastrophe).

3. You are overestimating the magical power of ponies, most unicorns can only do telekinesis amd basic spells, are not trained in advanced magic unless they have talent AND look for it themselves, earth ponies only have super strength and durability, pegasi don't tend to be very fest fliers on Rainbow Dash/Wonderbolt level. There is also the question of Special Talents and what that tells us about how professions work in Equestria.

4. There was no "recent militarization", Celestia just changed the whole political system and made a super police and other super parts of the government.

Sorry about writing that much but wow, there were so many wrong things in that comment(especially the part where not being able to defend themselves is "their fault").

 

[OurLadyOfWires]

I appreciate this, as always! I understand this site not having an auto-tally makes it harder to know the current votes, but this is one of the limitations we have to live with.

I also cant give detailed answers to pings rn. Logged in just to threadmark this.

Still. Like i said. Im giving you guys "limited" options because this vote is far too open ended to begin with.
Tell me what you want to "tell" the Bureau. Tell me how many lore levels you wanna share, if any. And let Velvet decide the best narrative way to do it.

Remember. This quest makes a point of keeping uncertain things uncertain, as well as dealing with information blackout. Very rarely so you guys get an option as simple and clear as "[] introduce the Lores to the Bureau", with a tidy lists of pros and cons.
If you wanna reach that result, you have to do it yourselves. And if you are too scared to do it, that is also its own decision.

I am, and remain, far more concerned about your Glory progress. But thats not the focus of the ongoing vote, so ill refrain from talking about it.

See you all later! And good day to us all.

 

[Pittauro]

Yeah, probably. Damnation, I thought Biedde would be legitimately helping us a la Baldomare and Axe, but no he has his own weird agenda that makes things more complicated for everyone. Probably some nonsense like causing chaos and war and destruction in the Wake to create some kind of crucible for the Edge worthy.

EDIT: Maybe he'll ease off if we get an Edge sacrament or if our Lantern beats his Moth.

EDIT 2: Wait, we already have Lantern 4. Like ??? what is his motive even.

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He's a Name. His Moth 3 is him not really trying.

As for his reasons, it could be anything from "educating us, making sure we don't get in the bad habit of trusting "mercenaries", to "collecting intel for an eventual report to the Colonel" to "train us to eventually turn us against his Dyad rival, to literally anything else.


Also keep in mind that Baldomare and Axe are NOT our friends yet.

Baldomare is a tiny bit closer to Velvet due to that "lvl 5 book equivalent" freebie, and her being our first summon and having spent the most time with us.

Axe cares about SILKY, not Velvet. She in fact is actually somewhat scared and/or hates Velvet because she things we're planning to eat Silky.

NONE of the Names are our friends yet. It's in our best interest to change that, and we're working on that, but none of them is someone we can completely rely on. The best we have is that Baldomare knows about Outsider but decided NOT to go for it, for some reason.

True enough. Sending the name of Edge to deal with them one at a time is effective. We don't have a Knock Ritual of unsummoning.

This however, misses the point! This is not a "Fix the Windigo" thing. We can't do that with this action. This is a "Hey, Bureau, don't touch this and accidentally kill yourself and others" thing. This is Prevention. Not Cure, not Solution, but Prevention. Prevent the little powderkeg there from going poorly.

Especially since,,we don't know where the Winter Name is! And also, the last thing we need is for Windy to be out there, wistfully pining for the end, only to see Wendigos erupting in Manhattan and go *Oh boy! It's time!"

Is any of it likely? I have no clue! I don't know if those Jars were kept in the building, or where Copper was moving things to, or if they were on the top floor that Luna vaporized. Or if the Winter Name just up and ate them! But this is something that, at worst, will give the Investigators some answers about the ice and some questions for Velvet, which they already had. At best, this saves their lives and prevents a minor to major catastrophy.


This is not about us dealing with the Wendigos in a permanent way! This is about the prevention of a problem.
Am I ringing any bells, are people seeing what I'm saying? I don't know how better to ring the bells, to sound the alarm. To prevent stepping on the landmine with teeth.

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to be fair I think we're planning to take part in the bureau expedition to Manehattan next turn, so Velvet COULD probably nudge things so that, say, when a single urn is opened it will be in the presence of MULTIPLE constables.

...damn, next turn we have so many things to do, objectives to scry, expeditions to go on (or send others on...)

...hopefully the loot include some bits. the 50 bits we saved by having the expedition take only 3 days was nice, but we'll ALWAYS need more.

After all we already have, ignoring bureau expeditions we don't pay for

1)potentially changeling hive if we go before bureau
2)Canterlot Part 3
3)Windy if we want to act against him
4)Manuscripts if we have to
5)Neighnia
6)Windigoes

Canterlot is also super expensive AND consumes our summons' actions, while at least the other 4 SHOULD likely be short expeditions we can manage more easily AND can have the summons go on as free actions (other than the leader).

hey @OurLadyOfWires if we're sending Names on the Canterlot part 3 expedition (requires 2 actions from them, so basically all of them), can they STILL also take part in short expeditions in addition to that?

A reminder that we don't know how the Changeling shapeshifting works anymore. They lost their ability to lie to the world, after all. Unless that was a temporary thing when the stone was Subverted. Wait, we saw one post-Subversion!

@OurLadyOfWires , did Velvet notice any difference between Changeling disguises before and Changeling disguises after the Catastrophe?

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I think the implication was it's now "normal" shapeshifting. So people are "allowed" to doubt them, at least.

Yes, because as everyone knows, Equestrian has 5k royal guards hiding in every building like a clown car in case of surprise Windigo attacks.

Surely it's not like Windigos are capable of mass civilian deaths in the time it would take to mobilize that degree of force or anything.

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Windigoes recover their health after each battle, and are (presumably) untiring.

Leave ONE Windigo, ONE, in the center of Manehattan, and we could very well get hundreds of casualties before it's stopped.

Have THREE of them, and we could easily reach the thousands.

And that's ignoring all the indirect consequences, like public unrest, "where were you" distrust for the authorities, Celestia's mentality worsening, damage to buildings...

Tirek was the only character that showed any awareness of their existence as real in canon when they came back and I'm not sure if Celestia is old enough to have seen the world pre-Equestria(since the Windigos were banished when Equestria was founded), so she may not know they are real too.

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she PROBABLY knows. her mentor was Starswhirl, and the Windigoes were banished by, among other things, Clover the Clever, which I think was his student.

Also from what we've deduced thus far he was a lore adept, so he probably knew about the Windigoes and summons in general, though of course we don't know how much he shared with Celestia and Luna.

 

[spiderhellian]

Plan	False Information	Vague Treatise on Lores	Detailed Treatise on 1 Lore	Windy Flakes	Forge's Redemption	The Worms	Other
Plan Ritual Knowledge	X	X			X
Plan Dream Warning	X					X
Plan A Softer, Lunar Nudge	X	X	X (KNOCK 1, MOTH 1, EDGE 1, WINTER 1, SECRET HISTORIES 1)
Plan Let's waste their time	X		X (GRAIL 1, HEART 1, MOTH 1 - Encrypted)
Plan Other Velvet	X						Evidence of framing Velvet
Plan Forge and Forgery	X (at Changelings)		X (FORGE 2)
Plan Basic Int Test		X			X
Plan Overview with a Warning		X				X
Plan Insurance for the Future		X				X
Plan Insurance for the Future (not a bad Sister edition)		X				X	Corruption of Luna
Plan A Gentle Nudge		X	X (KNOCK 1, MOTH 1)
Plan A Colder Nudge		X	X (KNOCK 1, WINTER 1)	X
Plan A Lunar Nudge		X	X (KNOCK 1, MOTH 1, EDGE 1, WINTER 1, SECRET HISTORIES 1)
Plan: Secrets better left Forgotten		X	X (MOTH 1)				Warning about the Windigos
Plan: Loring up the Night lights		X	X (ALL)				Dangers of the lores + A journal filled with vague ramblings about Luna's disappearance
A Foundation to Build On		X					Reveal Lore-related hazards + Framing Velvet
A Foundation To Build On (with Historical backing!)		X					Lore hazards + The old journal of Starswirl the Bearded + Framing Velvet
Plan: Reforging and Warning		X			X		Warning about the Windigos
Plan: Monoforging and Warning			X (FORGE 2)		X		Warning about the Windigos
How to build basic defenses	X		X (FORGE 2)

I think this table is right? Let me know if you see any issues.

 

[Greymere]

[X] Plan: Reforging and Warning
-[X] Plant warning about Wendigos (Details about Wendigos and their jars, not summoning info)
-[X] Plant a basic treaties on the lores (Lore level 0)
-[X] Plant the details of the Forge's Redemption

And not to add even more plans to the list buuuut...

[X] Plan Historical Precedent
-[X] A basic treatise on the Lores (Lore Level 0)
-[X] (WRITE-IN) Reveal the Lores as the ancestral magic of ponykind
-[X] (WRITE-IN) Reveal the one- and two-circle ritual configurations

[X] Plan Oh Shit They Can Summon Monsters
-[X] (WRITE-IN) Information about Windigos (Details about Windigos, their jars, and their nature as summonable entities - but not how to summon them)
-[X] (WRITE-IN) Information about Ash-Ghouls (Details about Ash-Ghouls, their fuel, and their nature as summonable entities - but not how to summon them)
-[X] A basic treatise on the lores (Lore Level 0)

 

[Sveta08]

...damn, next turn we have so many things to do, objectives to scry, expeditions to go on (or send others on...)

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I... have not yet looked to what will happen in the coming turn. Too many things yet to know.
The path towards Glory, the Bureau, the outsider hunt, Axe's Sacrament, expeditions, beneath Canterlot, Neghina, fleeting opportunities, lessons....

There are too many things still in wait for me to even look towards planning beyond vaguest goals.
Reach for Glory. Lesson from Axe. Sacrament. Nothing more.

 

[Nevermort]

The best we can do is pray equip them with the tools that they might use them and surrounded by information to make it seem credible. Beyond that it is out of our hands. And just because it is out of our hands, I wouldst not turn a blind eye and let pieces fall what may!

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I don't think that things are out of our hands now.
In regards to Windigo, first of all they are movable asset so if they were in Copper HQ some odds that they are now in our cellar
On the other hoof if they are stored in some cult warehouse then they would not be found until we conduct a proper Bureau raid on cult holdings. But in this case we are better to raid it beforehand, since we can't exclude possibility of cultists unsealing them in case of attack. Although it is just as likely that cult will try to move them away by then.
Bureau finding Urn just lying around unprotected is not most likely outcome and all in all it is better not to allow Bureau to come into contact with Windigoes at all.

 

[Pittauro]

Frankly if the Ponies don't have a rapid response force 10k strong ready an able to teleport to any area of Equestria 10 in minuets flat, that on them. That the bare minimum basic level, stuff they should have for their level magical ability. Especially with the recent militarization the nation is undergoing.

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keep in mind teleportation is a high rank spell, AND long range teleportation even more so!

Twilight, one of the most gifted unicorns ever, only had fairly short range teleportation in season 1 and 2.

Long Range Teleportation is basically only seen from Alicorns, Discord, and that one portal artifact Chancellor Neighsay (the one in charge of Equestrian Education basically) had.

Considering even the Bureau doesn't have professional teleporters but instead has flying chariots (mentioned to be fairly expensive/elite, NOT a common method of transport...)...

Also historically Equestria HAS been fairly peaceful, with no real need for rapid response teams until recently.

We can probably expect SMALL quick response teams (like our own from the Bureau), but the response time will be measured in HOURS, not minutes.

Keep in mind that instant communications are also fairly rare. Spike's flame mail and teleportation are, again, fairly rare. Even sending help to Velvet0s mansion after we got assaulted took, what, a few hours?

Buddy. Long-range teleportation is extremely high level magic. As in, the only characters we have demonstrably seen able to perform it are Celestia, Luna, and Cadance (basically Harmony-flavored Names), Twilight (the Element of Magic, and still only across a short range), and the Daughter-of-Axes (Name of the Lore of Opening). Your expectations are way too high for a setting that mostly runs on a select few very powerful individuals, as is pointed out in the opening post of this very quest.

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In canon you can add Starlight Glimmer (Twilight tier prodigy if not above her even), Sunset Shimmer (previous gen Twilight-tier genius), Discord (you might have heard of him...), Sombra, Chancelor Neighsay (he explicitly is using a fairly rare artifact, which might very well be a knock artifact in this setting), and I think that's it.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

Okay, let's not blame the pacifist nation who hasn't seen war on millenia, that are also the most powerful in the World, composed of the beings the World belongs to by supernatural law and is ruled by a demigoddes who controled the sun and the moon for over a thousand years alone.

Also:
1. Equestria is huge and hasn't had any major issues for a very long time. Teleportation is also not as common as you seen to think it is.

2. How many adult ponies there are that went to military jobs is unknown to us, as is the size of the population(especially post-Catastrophe).

3. You are overestimating the magical power of ponies, most unicorns can only do telekinesis amd basic spells, are not trained in advanced magic unless they have talent AND look for it themselves, earth ponies only have super strength and durability, pegasi don't tend to be very fest fliers on Rainbow Dash/Wonderbolt level. There is also the question of Special Talents and what that tells us about how professions work in Equestria.

4. There was no "recent militarization", Celestia just changed the whole political system and made a super police and other super parts of the government.

Sorry about writing that much but wow, there were so many wrong things in that comment(especially the part where not being able to defend themselves is "their fault").

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1. Equestria has not had any wars for a long time issues are another matter entirely. If they don't have a way to rapidly deploy ponies to handle natural disasters they would have already have failed as a nation. The existing system could easily be repurposed for military ponies.

2. Very few people actually died, and the amount is insignificant when places like Manehatten will have millions of ponies.

3. Not an issue week unicorns can pool their magic to accomplished greater feats of magic, that how they moved the Sun before Celestia and Luna. If they don't have teleportation arrays to move ponies around in an emergency they would not have lasted as a nation.

4. Equestira is basically at war with the changelings, their is a big militarization ongoing.

 

[Sveta08]

In regards to Windigo, first of all they are movable asset so if they were in Copper HQ some odds that they are now in our cellar

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Potentially, but... I am doubtful. Baldomare couldn't find them, but that is a tricky thing (with a bootstrap problem I shan't address) so I am not certain if they were in mobile assets that Mareinnete pulled free.

Either way, while best case scenario the Bureau would never touch or find them, I cannot be certain that is the case. And I would rather prepare for a problem that does not come to pass, than presume things will work out.

Beyond that...

All this.

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We saw how Equestria mobilizes. Look back at the search for Luna. In the Post Calamity chapters. They use trains, because they are effective, quick, fast, and can load ridiculous cargo. And with dedicated teams of Earth Ponies, it gets made quick. But as you seem only intent on considering this either a non-issue, or damning the nation should it be an issue...

Your perspective has been noted. I will keep it in mind. But will no more humor it.

 

[Greymere]

1. Equestria has not had any wars for a long time issues are another matter entirely. If they don't have a way to rapidly deploy ponies to handle natural disasters they would have already have failed as a nation. The existing system could easily be repurposed for military ponies.

2. Very few people actually died, and the amount is insignificant when places like Manehatten will have millions of ponies.

3. Not an issue week unicorns can pool their magic to accomplished greater feats of magic, that how they moved the Sun before Celestia and Luna. If they don't have teleportation arrays to move ponies around in an emergency they would not have lasted as a nation.

4. Equestira is basically at war with the changelings, their is a big militarization ongoing.

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You keep saying "if they didn't have X then they would have failed as a nation" when the thing you are complaining about is instant mobilization. Which even if long-range teleportation is possible in the way you think it is (and we have seen no evidence of being possible), still means you have to get ten-thousand ponies all in one place who, presumably, have other things to do than stand around in a big plaza doing literally nothing all day. Your expectations are incredibly unrealistic and are, quite frankly, based on literally nothing, considering human nations have survived just fine without the ability to teleport.

Edit: Also, because I somehow managed to completely skip over this point originally, but have you forgotten that ponies literally control so much of the natural cycle in Equestria that the weather and even the seasons themselves are entirely manufactured, except within the Everfree? The number of actual natural disasters they should be dealing with on an average basis should be pretty damn low, comparatively.

 

[des-pair-2]

We cannot make Bureau believe any evidence we will stash, but we can just order them to take it seriously.

Maybe the paper explaining Windigos is a bunch of crazy nonsense, but we can just say "But what if it isn't?" and have them prepare for it. We know there are at least 3 Windigos hidden somewhere so we will be proven right one way or another.

 

[Sveta08]

We cannot make Bureau believe any evidence we will stash, but we can just order them to take it seriously.

Maybe the paper explaining Windigos is a bunch of crazy nonsense, but we can just say "But what if it isn't?" and have them prepare for it. We know there are at least 3 Windigos hidden somewhere so we will be proven right one way or another.

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The easiest way I see for that is that the will doubt it's veracity. Velvet, instead of saying "But prepare just in case" can vaguely gesture at the frozen ice in her fields. At the changelings that were also myth.

Those parts though, are fallout. The after effect of what is said. What is left for them to find.

 

[Greymere]

@Sveta08 would you consider also voting to warn the Bureau about the Ash-Ghouls, seeing as those don't even need a ritual circle? They should probably have a bit of a heads up that the people they're hunting down can summon super-murder-zombies on top of the super-murder-wolves.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

Look, a "Cult Memorandum," reminding cultists to not poke the danger jars due to containing horrific monsters is hardly unbelievable. Equestria has a thriving populace of horrible gribblies in many locations. They ate a bunch of the Royal Guard as they searched for Luna. Equestria has a bunch of weird magic that can do a bunch of things. Stuffing horrible wind monsters into jars isn't that out there in such a world.

@Sveta08 would you consider also voting to warn the Bureau about the Ash-Ghouls, seeing as those don't even need a ritual circle? They should probably have a bit of a heads up that the people they're hunting down can summon super-murder-zombies on top of the super-murder-wolves.

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We don't know if the cult knows how to summon those yet. Additionally, there's nothing the Bureau can do about Ash Ghouls. The Bureau can discover a Windigo Jar, poke it, and unleash a terrible evil directly into their faces. An Ash Ghoul is going to be summoned swinging. It's just increasing our risks of discovery for nothing.

 

[Pittauro]

3. Not an issue week unicorns can pool their magic to accomplished greater feats of magic, that how they moved the Sun before Celestia and Luna. If they don't have teleportation arrays to move ponies around in an emergency they would not have lasted as a nation.

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we barely ever see combined casting in canon except for very high tier levels of magic, and IN THIS QUEST it was shown that the ritual to move the sun and moon actually included a (yearly?) pony sacrifice to basically convince the Sun-in-Rags to move.

 

[Sveta08]

@Sveta08 would you consider also voting to warn the Bureau about the Ash-Ghouls, seeing as those don't even need a ritual circle? They should probably have a bit of a heads up that the people they're hunting down can summon super-murder-zombies on top of the super-murder-wolves.

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... While those are something that The Bureau will need be appraised of, I do not yet consider them of the same present threat. If warning the Bureau of their existence is what it would take to get the warning of Wendigos out there, I would accept that.

And, as @Talon Tiger Dino put it, we don't know if the cult knows those yet exist. They do need be aware of it, but it is not my top three priorities (Wendigos, Changelings, and Lore lv0 respectively)

 

[Greymere]

We don't know if the cult knows how to summon those yet. Additionally, there's nothing the Bureau can do about Ash Ghouls. The Bureau can discover a Windigo Jar, poke it, and unleash a terrible evil directly into their faces. An Ash Ghoul is going to be summoned swinging. It's just increasing our risks of discovery for nothing.

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I think knowing that the people they're pursuing likely have pocket nukes and therefore are extremely dangerous as long as they have access to murderable bodies isn't exactly a trivial consideration when it comes to acting against the cult. And considering the Ash-Ghouls are in the Wastes, aka the new lowest and most easily accessible level of the Mansus, it's going to happen much sooner rather than later if they don't already have that knowledge. That'd be a really nasty surprise for our constables, either on the investigation or for our guards, you know? It's part of the reason we're so concerned about Windy, and he's not being actively hunted down by a hostile organization (yet).

And, as @Talon Tiger Dino put it, we don't know if the cult knows those yet exist. They do need be aware of it, but it is not my top three priorities (Wendigos, Changelings, and Lore lv0 respectively)

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I really don't see how talking about Moth is going to be very impactful. Knowing that the changelings are using Moth to construct their disguises isn't really going to help with actually seeing through the disguises, and if it's just about being able to realize it then basic initiation into all the Lores should be sufficient to realize "oh hey there's Moth stuff going on here", assuming they take it seriously.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

The thing is that the answer to potential Ash Ghouls is the same as the answer to any dangerous mass-murderer: arrest the git asap with overwhelming force. The fact that one mass-murderer wants to make a horrible monster via those murders and the other just wants to murder doesn't change that.

Bound Windigos are more like a bomb threat, except that currently the Bureau doesn't even know there are potential bombs they could set off.

 

[Sveta08]

I really don't see how talking about Moth is going to be very impactful. Knowing that the changelings are using Moth to construct their disguises isn't really going to help with actually seeing through the disguises, and if it's just about being able to realize it then basic initiation into all the Lores should be sufficient to realize "oh hey there's Moth stuff going on here", assuming they take it seriously.

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It's an anchor for them., the Bureau that is.

Look back at the snippit of Eclipse learning about Glory. About Lantern. They were... More or less cast adrift. Wandering and lost and spooked, hunting for anything. And they didn't have proof things were "real" so they were more adrift.

We are, in most plans, offering some level of knowledge of the lores (to be used or not) that the Bureau does not know what to do with. It's rantings and mad ramblings that is evidence of their evil deeds and deluded psychopathy and little more. It's something that can be dismissed.

Moth, anchored in the illusions of Changelings... It is something that the Bureau knows exists, but doesn't know how it works. This, believed or not, offers an explanation. One that, by their duty of rooting out the changeling threat, they are duty bound to investigate seriously. Which, investigating those, softly forces the Bureau to look into the lores in a more serious way.

It's an anchor. Something to ground these weird ideas onto, that they know is real. And this, maybe, the rest is real too.

 

[Greymere]

The thing is that the answer to potential Ash Ghouls is the same as the answer to any dangerous mass-murderer: arrest the git asap with overwhelming force. The fact that one mass-murderer wants to make a horrible monster via those murders and the other just wants to murder doesn't change that.

Bound Windigos are more like a bomb threat, except that currently the Bureau doesn't even know there are potential bombs they could set off.

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"The fact that one mass-murderer wants to make a horrible monster via those murders and the other just wants to murder doesn't change that" is equally applicable to summoning Windigos, and Ash-Ghouls are considerably easier to summon considering a) the lack of required ritual infrastructure, b) the lower DC requirements, and c) the ability to use up to 7 sacrifices, meaning that with an average pony and the cadre (which they still have) they can guarantee a summon with three sacrifices vs. the inherent uncertainty in summoning Windigos. nevermind misremembered this part. Point of "easier to summon than Windigos" still stands.

Like yes, the Windigos are a bomb threat, but the Ash-Ghouls are a potential horde. A horde that inflicts mental damage whenever one of its members fall, and can be easily thrown together by an organization with no compunctions against murder even with no infrastructure and minimal resources, or even just a small splinter.

 

[spiderhellian]

It's an anchor. Something to ground these weird ideas onto, that they know is real. And this, maybe, the rest is real too.

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We are, in most plans, offering some level of knowledge of the lores (to be used or not) that the Bureau does not know what to do with. It's rantings and mad ramblings that is evidence of their evil deeds and deluded psychopathy and little more. It's something that can be dismissed.

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This seems a little over-wrought, truthfully. We're deciding the Lores, and whether to do a specific or general introduction, trust Velvet on the narrative angle.

Tell me what you want to "tell" the Bureau. Tell me how many lore levels you wanna share, if any. And let Velvet decide the best narrative way to do it.

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[Talon Tiger Dino]

It's an anchor for them., the Bureau that is.

Look back at the snippit of Eclipse learning about Glory. About Lantern. They were... More or less cast adrift. Wandering and lost and spooked, hunting for anything. And they didn't have proof things were "real" so they were more adrift.

We are, in most plans, offering some level of knowledge of the lores (to be used or not) that the Bureau does not know what to do with. It's rantings and mad ramblings that is evidence of their evil deeds and deluded psychopathy and little more. It's something that can be dismissed.

Moth, anchored in the illusions of Changelings... It is something that the Bureau knows exists, but doesn't know how it works. This, believed or not, offers an explanation. One that, by their duty of rooting out the changeling threat, they are duty bound to investigate seriously. Which, investigating those, softly forces the Bureau to look into the lores in a more serious way.

It's an anchor. Something to ground these weird ideas onto, that they know is real. And this, maybe, the rest is real too.

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We were told not to determine narrative like this. If you want to teach Moth, you vote for a detailed treatise on Moth. I am sorry, for I understand and agree with your logic, but that level of detail is out of our hands.

 

[Sveta08]

We were told not to determine narrative like this. If you want to teach Moth, you vote for a detailed treatise on Moth. I am sorry, for I understand and agree with your logic, but that level of detail is out of our hands.

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You are correct.
I don't expect it to work exactly like that. I hope it does, but by no means do I control the way it goes.

I feel the Bureau has a better chance of believing a mad mans explanation of something they know exists, than what seems to be pure fantasy, like Forges Redemption.
We can't determine narrative, and I'm not trying to. I'm hopeful things turn out that way, Trying to leverage every half chance and scrap I can.

Or to put it bluntly, or at least as bluntly as I can...
Telling the Bureau nothing means that option isn't on the table. Telling them of Moth means it is. Even if we can't pick it, or control the narrative, we can at least offer the faintest influence of what they find, and thus, some options that fall from it.

The rest of it is guesswori and finger crossing.

 

[Greymere]

You are correct.
I don't expect it to work exactly like that. I hope it does, but by no means do I control the way it goes.

I feel the Bureau has a better chance of believing a mad mans explanation of something they know exists, than what seems to be pure fantasy, like Forges Redemption.
We can't determine narrative, and I'm not trying to. I'm hopeful things turn out that way, Trying to leverage every half chance and scrap I can.

Or to put it bluntly, or at least as bluntly as I can...
Telling the Bureau nothing means that option isn't on the table. Telling them of Moth means it is. Even if we can't pick it, or control the narrative, we can at least offer the faintest influence of what they find, and thus, some options that fall from it.

The rest of it is guesswori and finger crossing.

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Or, consider, you could have it explicitly be about revealing the mechanisms behind the changeling's shapeshifting and former Lie to the World instead of throwing a Moth treatise at them and hoping they connect the dots? Because, as written, it's about giving them a Moth 1 study material, not about giving them information on the changelings. Your plan already gives them a primer on the Lores, they don't necessarily need to understand the intricacies of Moth to realize that another document that they find is talking about an advanced usage of the Moth Lore mentioned in the primer.

To put it another way: if I find a pamphlet that mentions quarks and bosons as being things in quantum physics, and also a textbook called "The Mathematics of Quarks and Bosons" full of advanced math, I don't actually need to understand how quantum physics works to realize that the textbook is talking about the same thing as the pamphlet, just at a much more advanced level that I don't understand.

 

[Sveta08]

Or, consider, you could have it explicitly be about revealing the mechanisms behind the changeling's shapeshifting and former Lie to the World instead of throwing a Moth treatise at them and hoping they connect the dots? Because, as written, it's about giving them a Moth 1 study material, not about giving them information on the changelings.

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That, is because I am not certain that that is the same mechanism that changelings are hiding. I don't know if the fact the changeling that the Bureau caught continually insisted they were that regular stallion to mean that they simply aren't lying to the world, or if they have forgotten what they were, or if they themselves believe to be that stallion. Ect...

Baldomare did something to the Moldywarp stone. I don't know if that permanently altered the way Changelings work, and thus they don't lie to the world, or not.

I thus would rather give them Moth 1 study material that we know is true and hope they make connections, as opposed to how changelings work, which we know was true, and might still be.