Let's Try Out: Dawn of Worlds

[Dreadis]

Start Turn Points : 3
+3 bonus
Rolling
[dice]3145[/dice]

 

[Dreadis]

Points : 13

Shape Land (3)
Flying Forest Mountain over a giant Oasis Currently on the edge of a desert.

Create Avatar (10)
Totally not Ziz.



(Ahead of the advancing desert the ground rumbles a peak begins forming trees sprouting upon it as it grows and eventually a small mountain is formed. But it doesn't stop rising, a tremendous crack spreads throughout the lands as air is sucked rapidly underneath the mountain as it rises into the air. The cavity left behind as the mountain rises begins filling with water, the land at the edges of the hole collapse inward as nothing is holding them up any longer. Tropical trees grow around the new lake for some distance and water strikes the lake from unending waterfalls from the flying mountain who's lowest point is nearly 400 meters above the surface of the lake.

At the peak of the floating mountain the land crumbles as a large opaque crystal breaks free to float above the land. The crystal shatters, scattering clear diamond feathers upon the mountain, leaving a white crystalline woman with 6 wings covered in diamond feathers in its place.)

End turn points : 0
Tavarokk

 

[Tavarokk]

Current Power: 5.

[dice]3146[/dice]

 

[Tavarokk]

Spending 14: Create Avatar (Niue), Command Avatar to create race (Niue-Oro), Shape Climate to convert forest into jungle.

(Roused by gentle rays of the morning sun, a young woman sleeping in the middle of the previously empty clearing on the moss-covered ground woke up and stretched before smiling brilliantly at the surrounding life. Voluptuous, yet graceful, compassionate and kind, yet whimsical and full of mischief, innocent, yet lascivious, she embodied beauty, and joy, and life. Every once in a while her features would blur, changing her looks to emphasize one aspect or the other and sometimes deviating entirely from her original form, soft, delicate and inviting. She was Niue, goddess of nature, fertility and growth, blood of this land's blood, one with every living being of this land.

From the day of her birth Niue took the role of the forest keeper, guiding its growth, warding off diseases and calamities, helping its denizens live in harmony of the circle of life. Over the years, countless males of numerous species sought to mate with her, captivated by universal beauty and brilliance of a goddess, and Niue eagerly offered them her body, welcoming each and every one into her loins so that she could again and again feel yet another life growing inside her.

Each child was a girl, sharing their mother's image and way of life. Before long they would grow to take mates of their own and carry offspring, always daughters born true to their mothers' blood, if inheriting some superficial traits from the fathers. Every one of them would preserve the connection with Niue and the forest, adopting their progenitor's creed. They would travel and settle across the great jungle, welcomed even by the most dangerous and hostile beasts and plants, eventually strarting the nation known as Daughters of Niue.)

Current Power: 1.

Even if Xicree somewhat beat me to a punch with this premise, I'm still going with the original plan since, by the looks of it, it's going to significantly differ from Madrigoza's down the line. Why, it's almost like they're rivals =)

 

[Xicree]

Rolling: 1 + 2 + ?
[dice]3148[/dice]

 

[Xicree]

Madrigoza fornicates with her children endlessly, her womb swollen with their essences even as they intermingle, rut, and multiply. In the jungle where mutant beasts roam and grow the Xantne find ample challenge. And yet it is not enough for the most brilliant among the to simply sit back, to watch the whims of the world unfold and their lineages change with such randomization in all things.

No. The Xantne grow to understand themselves, their world in ways which they could never have before.

A spark of divine inspiration sets one to learn that of how traits are passed from parent to offspring, observing it though the lineages of creature, plant, and people. And with slow basis the Xantne learn ever more about their own bodies and the bodies of those around them. The mutating clouds which billow out from the Jungleweb trees becomes a tool in their arsenal as the society learns to use every aspect of the forest which they've inherited in order to alter themselves and everything around them willfully. The body after all, is but a plaything of the gods, mutable in and of itself.

And now Madrigoza and the Xantne together learn to forge those shapes and improve upon them with every step.

Like a method born from madness... their civilization... Advances.


And the deep fog which has become their tool... grows ever denser still, forming crystals of perfect mutagen to be plucked from trees like frozen morning dew.



Advance Civilization (Bio-tech Mastery) - 10 Power
Shape Climate (Condensing mutagen) - 2 Power

Power left: 0
(+3 for new roll)

 

[ReinZero]

Turn Start Power: 5
[dice]3149[/dice]

Post Dice Power: 17

Action: Do Nothing.

Remaining Power: 17

Darkened

 

[Darkened]

A quick reminder: As round 5 has passed, we can now move to the race age by a simple majority vote. The easiest way to do this will be to include in your action whether you want to transfer and then push it a round back? I guess copy the format I'm using. ​

Round 6​

Current Power: 4
Bonus: +3
Advance Age: No
[dice]3152[/dice]
Current Power: 12

Advance Civilization (10): Svartalf, Engineering.
Command Avatar (2): (Command Race): The First orders its chosen people to cultivate the land moving eastward from Nidvalier.


(The First speaks to its chosen people, instructing them to cultivate the land, to carve away mountains and sow seeds, to grow and spread lands and villages that their growing population might use through purely mundane means.

Slowly they grow and change. They study and learn, and learn to worship the act of learning, of growing and understanding above all. They become artists in truth, a culture that worships craft. Their primitive towers and cities are small yet, but unsurpassed amidst the world. The land around their city begins to shift. To the west, right to the walls of proud Nidvalier, lies absolute waste, a land none may enter and live. To the east lies the land they have created, a smooth gentle land of a peaceful scholarly people. The hand of the Svartalven has conquered nature. They are an early race yet. Their towers do not climb so far as the heavens. But their primitive craft is far from the least of wonders.)

Current Power: 0

Dreadis: You're up

(Given the absurd difficulty of making big serious rivers, I'm almost interested in suggesting the world map just start with some in future iterations.)

 

[Dreadis]

[X] Don't Advance to Second Age

Start points 0
+3 bonus
[dice]3155[/dice]

 

[Dreadis]

Points: 7

Shape Climate (2)
--- The floating Island and the land surrounding it become highly stable, rarely the temperature goes above 78F or below 56F

Command Avatar : Create Race (2)
--- Flugen - Hollow Diamond Bones, Wings from lower Back(flight capable), Obsession with challenges, and knowledge. Very slow birth rate that can spike to very high when the species is threatened, cease aging upon full maturity. 1:15 M:F Ratio with families only being temporary things that get together and break up for the sole purpose of creating children.

Spoiler

(The Crystal Avatar, after deciding its name will be Artosha, is lonely. Glowing brighter then the sun for a few moments in its melancholy. The diamond feathers cast off by Artosha's birth seemingly absorb the light,floating up off the flying mountain under their own power.

The Diamond feathers seemingly explode, growing rapidly into hollow diamond skeletons that quickly become covered in flesh. The Flugen are born, mostly female with fewer males, on the flying mountain, resources abundant with the climate forcibly stabilized by the power of their races birth.

The Flugen live a peaceful, if competitive, life exploring everything they can about their floating home and the land underneath that they sometimes fly down to explore.)

End turn points 3
Tavarokk

 

[Tavarokk]

[X] Don't Advance to Second Age

Current Power: 1.

[dice]3156[/dice]

 

[Tavarokk]

Spending 2: Command Avatar - Command Race (develop Animal Training).

(While all Niue-Oro posessed innate grasp of forest lore and understanding of its denizens, only their Mother could trully command the beasts of the jungle. Niue wished for all her daughters to enjoy the friendship and support of the animal companions and thus she showed her priestesses how to teach and guide the beasts, and how to lead them in tasks both minor and great, before willing them to go and pass her lessons to the rest of Niue-Oro.)

Current Power: 4.

So I've asked, and apparently we can command the race to develop a technology over time on their own. Which makes sense, but limitations would have to be discussed to know where Advance Race must be used instead. For now I'm sticking to the idea that research order can only be used for implementing new practical applications of abilities and skills a race already posesses. That and it can't provide benefits in the same turn it was started in.

Xicree.

 

[Xicree]

Current power bonus: +3
Current power: 0
[dice]3157[/dice]

 

[Xicree]

From the whispering depths of the grand Jungleweb Sea, the avatar listens. Whispers bubble up though trees, though the waters, though the very mutagenic fog which covers the entirety of the land... even singing in the crystal formations of mutagen which have become the basis of Xantne techniques to twist flesh and transform bone like ants may shape the earth.

"Twist the trees... make a hive. Grow, spread, collect and prosper. Create in my name..." Your avatar repeats to her multitude of children.

And so begins the grand City Hive of Reglath where ever greater strides would be taken in learning the twisting of flesh, in raising the next generation of beasts with capabilities which would let your creations travel far, and strike like the beasts which they've tamed. Even now they begin to trade among themselves, materials and unique Blood-patterns have become the currency, useful Blood-Patterns being even more valuable than than the materials they were coded upon.


The Xantne enter their first age of greatness.


Command Race: 8 Power (Build City and continue in its path of advancement)


Hive City Reglath lives.


Power: 0
Next power bonus: +3


[X] Change age

 

[Xicree]

Next up: ReinZero

Your turn.

 

[Darkened]

So I've asked, and apparently we can command the race to develop a technology over time on their own. Which makes sense, but limitations would have to be discussed to know where Advance Race must be used instead. For now I'm sticking to the idea that research order can only be used for implementing new practical applications of abilities and skills a race already posesses. That and it can't provide benefits in the same turn it was started in.

Click to shrink...

Read advance Race, it's not "Develop engineering" but "Be the bestest ever at engineering" or the like.

 

[Tavarokk]

Read advance Race, it's not "Develop engineering" but "Be the bestest ever at engineering" or the like.

Click to shrink...

I'm pretty sure that it's half fluff and half poor wording. As in, not best among the other cities/races, but this particular area of expertise is the best feature of the city/race in question compared to all other undeveloped ones.

If I get it right, mechanically Advance Race grants an arbitrary racial trait that provides +1 to dice rolls for situations where said trait applies. So it makes a race more specialized in a chosen direction, but not necessarily the best compared to other races.

 

[Darkened]

If I get it right, mechanically Advance Race grants an arbitrary racial trait that provides +1 to dice rolls for situations where said trait applies. So it makes a race more specialized in a chosen direction, but not necessarily the best compared to other races.

Click to shrink...

I think, in terms of what little mechanical conflict there is, that is the benefit, but that the intent is also to be very good at something in a not usually surpassed way. "So long as that civilization persists it will always be the greatest in that field." is the wording in question. Mechanically it's an arbitrary +1 bonus, but that could be paired with any fluff, and the conflict mechanics are a very thin hanger on next to outright descriptions.

The vast majority of the engine is qualitative rather than quantitative changes. The fluff, in this sense, at least insofar as it describes powers, is pretty much entirely mechanically significant. Making an exception here would be rather odd. Anyway, if it's the best feature of that race, then one advance would have to overwrite another one as the 'best' so it can't be 'the greatest trait of that race'. It also, very clearly doesn't say 'better than undeveloped ones'.

I'm also not sure I like the possibility of a back and forth "I'm the best here" "No I am" issue with repeating the same advance between two competitors active at the same time (Clearly getting the advance that someone else already has should require destroying their civilization).

In the context of fantasy, something like an industrial revolution is generally assumed not to be the case. Rather, overall tech levels tend to be... artificially incredibly stagnant with some groups having really arbitrary huge advantages. The system seems designed to mimic that with the mechanical repreucssion being a +1 modifier for being the best mechanical engineers or what have you.

This is the power to have "Elves are super-awesome hunters" or "Everyone knows dwarfs are the best blacksmiths" or "Tel Azel is the legendary city of scholars!"

Saying it represents minimal technological investment ignores the fact that most races seem capable of doing things like crafting cities in the turn they exist, even though that should realistically require dozens of advancements.

 

[Tavarokk]

I think, in terms of what little mechanical conflict there is, that is the benefit, but that the intent is also to be very good at something in a not usually surpassed way. "So long as that civilization persists it will always be the greatest in that field." is the wording in question. Mechanically it's an arbitrary +1 bonus, but that could be paired with any fluff, and the conflict mechanics are a very thin hanger on next to outright descriptions.

The vast majority of the engine is qualitative rather than quantitative changes. The fluff, in this sense, at least insofar as it describes powers, is pretty much entirely mechanically significant. Making an exception here would be rather odd. Anyway, if it's the best feature of that race, then one advance would have to overwrite another one as the 'best' so it can't be 'the greatest trait of that race'. It also, very clearly doesn't say 'better than undeveloped ones'.

I'm also not sure I like the possibility of a back and forth "I'm the best here" "No I am" issue with repeating the same advance between two competitors active at the same time (Clearly getting the advance that someone else already has should require destroying their civilization).

In the context of fantasy, something like an industrial revolution is generally assumed not to be the case. Rather, overall tech levels tend to be... artificially incredibly stagnant with some groups having really arbitrary huge advantages. The system seems designed to mimic that with the mechanical repreucssion being a +1 modifier for being the best mechanical engineers or what have you.

This is the power to have "Elves are super-awesome hunters" or "Everyone knows dwarfs are the best blacksmiths" or "Tel Azel is the legendary city of scholars!"

Saying it represents minimal technological investment ignores the fact that most races seem capable of doing things like crafting cities in the turn they exist, even though that should realistically require dozens of advancements.

Click to shrink...

There's nothing saying though that multiple races can't pursue the same specialization and compete for having the most renown in that one area. Or that multiple advancements in the same area of expertise can't be taken. That's an entirely reasonable scenario.

And even if we limit this to fantasy, some fantasy settings have extremely advanced magical or social technologies, like commonly available teleportation, resurrection or low scarcity societies.

As for city issue, even if the power is called 'create city', it does not necessarily create infrastructure in a way that comes to mind when we think of one. It can be just a large cluster of dwellings build together for some purpose.

The example of elves being super-awesome hunters works both ways actually since it may just as well mean that over the course of the game hunting tradition and ranged weapon technology have been developed the most by the elves.

 

[ReinZero]

Turn Start Power: 17
Bonus: +0
Advance Age: Yes
[dice]3158[/dice]

Post Dice Power: 28

Action: None.

Darkened

 

[Darkened]

There's nothing saying though that multiple races can't pursue the same specialization and compete for having the most renown in that one area. Or that multiple advancements in the same area of expertise can't be taken. That's an entirely reasonable scenario.

Click to shrink...

The effect of advancement is explicitly described as making you the best. If two groups pursue the same thing, then the terms would be in conflict. Likewise, it's something that applies to civilization not race, so you could easily destroy a given civilization without paying to wipe out a race, then establish yourself in the same field.

The system works best with chaotic interactions, which means that it should be designed to create friction. If normal development is enough for steady growth, which seems reasonable since command race/city notes you can use it to build things, then advance city should be something significantly more than that. Which is what it describes itself as.

There's a lot of contextual support for making you the 'best' at some given reasonably described sector of things. I'd presume advance civ is intended more for general bonuses (Dwarves are great smiths, no one's as sneaky as those cat-people) and advance city is for a more specific benefit.

But the fact remains that, whatever mental gymnastics you want to use to ignore it, the text is pretty explicit. Your reading definitely cannot be extrapolated from the actual words there. (Note it doesn't mean, 'no one else gets bio-tech' just 'no other civ gets super-biotech mastery talent')

 

[Darkened]

Round 7
​

[X] Don't advance to the Second Age
Current Power: 0
Bonus: +3
[dice]3159[/dice]

Current Power 10:

Shape Climate 2: The Tundra expands to cover the last of the peninsulas in the north.

Command Avatar 2: Create City (Hreidmar)

Shape Land 3: Expand farmland, extend rivers from jungle into the land.


(The First looks upon the works of his creations and is pleased. But it is not enough. It is a being of solitude who fills the voids with creations. Works of stone and dirt are mighty, but there needs to be more to satiate its endless drive to build.

It takes some of the Svartalf and leads them north to the foothills of the great mountain range. There, they carve a new settlement, taking on the name of a great king of their people to lend it posterity. This new city is different, adapted to the mountains and built down as much as it is built up. Houses extend into the ground in networks of caves and mines that connect the surface parts of the city to a massive web of underground tunnels. The First shows its people who to take from the land iron and other precious metals.

In Nidvalier, the expansion continues. Its people dream of shaping all the land east of the Waste. Their plains and towns and cities slowly expand, and they find that the river and plains have come to meet them. This is mete, a blessing of the gods, for who could be more worthy than the First's People.)



Current Power: 3


(Went a bit out of bounds of shape land to fit the rivers together more nicely. If anyone objects, I'm happy to swap things around to a square and leave the awkward joining the rivers for later. )

 

[ReinZero]

The effect of advancement is explicitly described as making you the best. If two groups pursue the same thing, then the terms would be in conflict. Likewise, it's something that applies to civilization not race, so you could easily destroy a given civilization without paying to wipe out a race, then establish yourself in the same field.

The system works best with chaotic interactions, which means that it should be designed to create friction. If normal development is enough for steady growth, which seems reasonable since command race/city notes you can use it to build things, then advance city should be something significantly more than that. Which is what it describes itself as.

There's a lot of contextual support for making you the 'best' at some given reasonably described sector of things. I'd presume advance civ is intended more for general bonuses (Dwarves are great smiths, no one's as sneaky as those cat-people) and advance city is for a more specific benefit.

But the fact remains that, whatever mental gymnastics you want to use to ignore it, the text is pretty explicit. Your reading definitely cannot be extrapolated from the actual words there. (Note it doesn't mean, 'no one else gets bio-tech' just 'no other civ gets super-biotech mastery talent')

Click to shrink...

Uh... why not just have it that both have a lead then on it. Except it modifies and increases the benefit of the civilization's progresses/etc. that relate to the advancement? Thus there is more than one that can be Advanced in the same general sense, but when it comes down to it, they're not really 'equal'.

Though the way I'm hearing/interpreting from what you're saying previously on something else and then this, that it does mean that 'no one else gets bio-tech' with the way that 'Advance'. Also, the way it's literally stated in the wording is that race and civilization are interchangeable.

 

[Darkened]

Though the way I'm hearing/interpreting from what you're saying previously on something else and then this, that it does mean that 'no one else gets bio-tech' with the way that 'Advance'. Also, the way it's literally stated in the wording is that race and civilization are interchangeable.

Click to shrink...

Ah. My mistake on race/civ then. So if you want to outdo biotech on someone else who picked that advancement, wipe out that race. The idea of this is to add flavor and character to races for world-building, not to model civ games.

Presumably you don't get instant-super high end top research stuff done from picking the advancement, but I'd take it to mean that you're going to stay ahead, and there are enough advancements that can be conceived that losing 1/2 doesn't really stop you from pushing a theme.

Limiting them encourages diversity as well, which is a good thing for world-building.

Remember, no one has their exclusive sandbox. It's one create order or command avatar action action for you to go tinkering with someone else's super-biotech race and spreading out some rival culture in their system, at least in this phase with its 500 year turns.

 

[ReinZero]

Ah. My mistake on race/civ then. So if you want to outdo biotech on someone else who picked that advancement, wipe out that race. The idea of this is to add flavor and character to races for world-building, not to model civ games.

Click to shrink...

So in other words, grief others if you want to get equal. That... sounds nice.

Presumably you don't get instant-super high end top research stuff done from picking the advancement, but I'd take it to mean that you're going to stay ahead, and there are enough advancements that can be conceived that losing 1/2 doesn't really stop you from pushing a theme.

Limiting them encourages diversity as well, which is a good thing for world-building.

Click to shrink...

I read it as saying that you have a lead up on others in this area/field. Unless someone ELSE also spends to Advance too. In which they would be the other 'equal', but only as far as -nothing else- being factored in.

Like say for biotech. Having a Civilization + City both Advanced in it, vs a Civilization Advanced in it + unAdvanced City. The former is obviously a edge up since they have a City that's also Advanced in it. Or alternatively Civ A has a tech in it whereas Civ B doesn't.

Remember, no one has their exclusive sandbox. It's one create order or command avatar action action for you to go tinkering with someone else's super-biotech race and spreading out some rival culture in their system, at least in this phase with its 500 year turns.

Click to shrink...

Uh not quite. In the rules it outright states you do need to create a Order within the Civilization if you're not one of the makers of that Race. With extra Power costs outright stated under create Order (for non-Race creator), this is not stated to be covered by Command Avatar sort actions.

I'm pretty sure you're getting the wrong actions mixed up or at least interpretation. *Otherwise Rein does agree it is possible.

Thing is still though, you're basically saying that people have to play around with that race that has the Advancement as a sort of a monopoly. I'm saying that it gives them a lead that scales with other things relative to it being brought in, thus allowing two Civilizations pursuing the same general Advancement to progress differently still.

 

[Darkened]

Uh not quite. In the rules it outright states you do need to create a Order within the Civilization if you're not one of the makers of that Race. With extra Power costs outright stated under create Order (for non-Race creator), this is not stated to be covered by Command Avatar sort actions.

Click to shrink...

Command Race is noted to only be possible if you have an order in that race or created it or have an avatar present and use that. There is no extra cost for non-creators.

Create order has a completely uniform cost.

Command Order does not, but that is not for a race vs "my priesthood" or "Super-special templar order of knights"

What's more, you can move an avatar over, per the ** note on the big list, create an order via command avatar, and then manipulate that race freely forever for the standard costs, unless someone else spends to completely eradicate your order and you don't stop them. But that's tension and plot and epic conflicts that color world-history, which is functioning as desired.

Thing is still though, you're basically saying that people have to play around with that race that has the Advancement as a sort of a monopoly. I'm saying that it gives them a lead that scales with other things relative to it being brought in, thus allowing two Civilizations pursuing the same general Advancement to progress differently still.

Click to shrink...

This is incompatible with what's written. And again, diversity amongst species does a lot better for world-building than having 5 different super-biotech master races, particularly since with 500 year turns you can move an avatar, spend 2.

Again, this is a world-building exercise. Everyone making jungle-kingdom biotech does, well, not a terribly interesting world make. Forcing people to differentiate concepts like this in advancements is actually a net benefit for the game's purpose as a mechanism for creating diverse settings.

So in other words, grief others if you want to get equal. That... sounds nice.

Click to shrink...

Or just develop something else instead of reinventing the wheel. If someone else steals hunters, take stealth or archery or whatever for your elves. If someone else steels smithing before your crafter race is up and running then either work with them and adapt a sub-race to suit your needs or just do woodworking or 'gemshaping' or 'steamworks' instead of blacksmithing.

Hell, just use an avatar, go "Create order" then "Create Subrace" and you have a distinct group that actually has connections and backstory shared with other similar race. And that's not terribly more expensive than making a new race.

 

[Dreadis]

Actually the Creator of a race has to have an order as well, its just they get one for free when they create a race.

Hmm, i think its my turn.

Also Darkened i assume based on how many points you spent it was 3/2 in favor of not advancing to second age?

 

[Darkened]

Actually the Creator of a race has to have an order as well, its just they get one for free when they create a race.

Hmm, i think its my turn.

Also Darkened i assume based on how many points you spent it was 3/2 in favor of not advancing to second age?

Click to shrink...

I, you and Tavarokk voted not to advance. It's not my fault everyone after me took a completely different format than the one laid out!

It is your turn!

 

[Dreadis]

Start turn points 3
+3 bonus
Advance Age: no
[dice]3160[/dice]

Points : 15

 

[ReinZero]

Command Race is noted to only be possible if you have an order in that race or created it or have an avatar present and use that. There is no extra cost for non-creators.

Create order has a completely uniform cost.

Command Order does not, but that is not for a race vs "my priesthood" or "Super-special templar order of knights"

What's more, you can move an avatar over, per the ** note on the big list, create an order via command avatar, and then manipulate that race freely forever for the standard costs, unless someone else spends to completely eradicate your order and you don't stop them. But that's tension and plot and epic conflicts that color world-history, which is functioning as desired.

Click to shrink...

Yes I have the costs wrong. My mistake on that part.

This is incompatible with what's written. And again, diversity amongst species does a lot better for world-building than having 5 different super-biotech master races, particularly since with 500 year turns you can move an avatar, spend 2.

Again, this is a world-building exercise. Everyone making jungle-kingdom biotech does, well, not a terribly interesting world make. Forcing people to differentiate concepts like this in advancements is actually a net benefit for the game's purpose as a mechanism for creating diverse settings.

Or just develop something else instead of reinventing the wheel. If someone else steals hunters, take stealth or archery or whatever for your elves. If someone else steels smithing before your crafter race is up and running then either work with them and adapt a sub-race to suit your needs or just do woodworking or 'gemshaping' or 'steamworks' instead of blacksmithing.

Hell, just use an avatar, go "Create order" then "Create Subrace" and you have a distinct group that actually has connections and backstory shared with other similar race. And that's not terribly more expensive than making a new race.

Click to shrink...

Isn't using sub-race then the same then as having "5 different super-biotech master races" ? That aside, sub-race has its own share of extreme limitations, thus why it would/could/can be unideal or not an option for some.

Meh.