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Allen would never rule China,becouse he is not chineese.Unless he get good army of foreigh troops,maybe Manchur? but why should they help him?
So,he need chineese puppet.
Good.United China was not always good for itself,and never for neighbours.White Wolf takes place chronologically, well let me put it this way... this timeline is plotted up and out through the 60s. I haven't done much for the sixties, but China won't fully unify until after world war 2 ends it drags on until after Imperial Japan surrenders but by that point Northern China or Central China (depending on who in universe you ask to describe it) has a bicameral legislative assembly and has a lot of Manchu, and Hui representation particularly the Cadre (the upper House) is drawn almost exclusively from the military with Yan Xishan coming into the role of Prime Minister equivalent but I wouldn't really call him a puppet.
But thats quite a ways in the future.
Of these, Holland is really the only one I hadn't considered. I don't know if you've glanced around the misc thread which covers not only some of the early drafts of the main story (the one that is actually derived from the CYOA, set after the end of the National Protection War in summer 1916) but the first side story (set at the end of the first world war), the teaser for the www2 era story as well as the 'spin off /crossover' whatever you want to call it side story with Destroyermen (1940s), as well as a large volume of world building content and background materialGood.United China was not always good for itself,and never for neighbours.
About war with Japan - in OTL Kuonmintang had german,american,italian and soviet advisors and stuff,and it not helped them.Better choose some smaller countries with good technology.
What about Holland,Sweden and Czech?
Holland - D.17 and D.21 fighters,C.10 dive bombers.enough till 1939.D.23 prototype fighter could work,too.
Czech - 100mm and 150mm howitzers mod 37.LGM mod 26. medium tank mod 39.light tank mod 38.AT gun 47mm,AA fun 83mm.
Sweden - medium tank Lago,armored cars,smaller warships.,37mmAT fun,40mm and 80mm AA guns.
After Czech fall - take engineers.
Poland was Japan ally,but after 1939 fall take engineers,too,and plans - P.37 medium bomber,P.49 next medium bomber,P.46 light bomber,P.50 fighter,P.48 fighter bomber/french engines/9tp ligh tank,4tp recon tank,20mm AA gun/for fighters and tanks,too/
100mm howitzers and 75mm fieldguns,AT rifle,new HMG,38mod semi-automatic rifle.47mm AT gun prototype
France - after 1940 fall,120 and 60mm mortars,155 guns,105mm howitzers,47mm AT guns,90mm AA guns,semi automatic rifle,SAU40 tank destroyer.
VG33,34 and 39 fighter prototypes,D.523,551 fighters,MB155,157 fighters.Dive bomber versions of Potez 63 and Breguet 593 light bombers.
That would be all,i think.If soviets take over Europe as in OTL,take all refugees.
PS earlier then 1937 - czech 100mm howitzers mods 14 and 30,french mortars 81mm mod 27,
And made in russia first assault rifle - awtamat fedorowa.
Of these, Holland is really the only one I hadn't considered. I don't know if you've glanced around the misc thread which covers not only some of the early drafts of the main story (the one that is actually derived from the CYOA, set after the end of the National Protection War in summer 1916) but the first side story (set at the end of the first world war), the teaser for the www2 era story as well as the 'spin off /crossover' whatever you want to call it side story with Destroyermen (1940s), as well as a large volume of world building content and background material
Federov's rifle for example is brought back from the first side story, and it also marks the first appearance of Czech legion, and the beginning of the Czech diaspora, which is important in the twenties during the interwar years
On the notion of airplanes in the interwar period Xian/north china/central china is buying production rights from Germany for a couple of aircraft not all of them are great, but they're also tied up with the UK and the US which continues in(the latter two) into the outbreak of the second sino japanese war. Xian's tanks are largely derived from French Renaults and later Vickers hybridizing those into what becomes the Model 1932 and 35 tanks [I have done a lot of world war 2 story content and world building for this story]
My Miscellaneous thread: https://forum.questionablequesting.com/threads/imperator-paxs-miscellaneous-stuff.10769/ its the link in my signature 'Imperator Pax's Miscellaneous Stuff'Where i could find those stories ? and i read some destryerman novels.
About planes - i accidentally found book about WW1 fighters/in polish/ ,so i knew that except Fokker who run to Holland Germany have also Pfalz manufactury with good Pfalz D.12 and new prototypes and the end of the war.
Another was manufacture LFG/Roland/ with another good plane,Roland D.6.Another factory - Siemens-Schuckert,with D.3 fighter.
All that factories was destroyed after WW1 - but your China could take one of them. with engineers to teach chineese how to made it and how made new ones.
In that case,you do not need buy planes from abroad.If Holland could take one german factory/Fokker/ ,then why not China ?
I am from Poland,and Poland from at least 1937 have secret alliance with Japan/anti-soviet/,so we would not help China from 1937.
But before that ? 100mm howitzers mod 26/only prototype was made/,75mm AA gun,47mm infrantry gun,P.11 and P.24 fighters,P.43 light bombers.And when Poland fell,you could take engineers and workers.Unfortunately,most of them would want to go and die for England.
Tanks - italian Fiat3000B would be good till 1939,against Japan till end of WW2.
My Miscellaneous thread: https://forum.questionablequesting.com/threads/imperator-paxs-miscellaneous-stuff.10769/ its the link in my signature 'Imperator Pax's Miscellaneous Stuff'
For this 'timeline' they start with 'https://forum.questionablequesting....iscellaneous-stuff.10769/page-16#post-3379228' this post under the heading Autumn of Empires in snippet form. This is the original version, and after I finish White Wolf Rebellion I'll be posting the new versions here in this thread, and they'll be longer, new material and so forth
The short form version of Side Story 1 is here here https://forum.questionablequesting....iscellaneous-stuff.10769/page-16#post-3428387 its threadmarked under extras and its only three parts
The Destroyermen Side Story draft 1 starts here: https://forum.questionablequesting....iscellaneous-stuff.10769/page-19#post-3862428
AoE's behind the scenes world building content can be considered somewhat spoilery to things down the road its a mix its here in the extra tab: https://forum.questionablequesting....iscellaneous-stuff.10769/page-18#post-3704939
Most of this content will undergo some degree of revision as I flesh out, not just the White Wolf period of the timeline but also the 'Great war' era and inter war eras, especially as its the latter where the transition from 'adventurers' to 'nation state building' really starts to come together.
Some of the Tsar's gold was also sent to Kemal's Ankara government as well n the early twenties as well. As for the Romanovs, in the original, or very early draft of this (which featured more meta Cyoa inclusion being more of an SI) there wwere plans to add a Russian aristocrat to the harem, but I did more or less decide to scrap that.Thanks.
You rescued tsar,and your SI do not formed harem with his cute daughters? it is QQ,you knew!
Jokes aside - in OTL soviets get almost all gold,100t send to germans,and rest sold to USA till 1922.For weapons,machines and luxury food for party officials.5millions ordinary people died from hunger,but they do not cared.
Later they robbed churches and sold gold to USA,too.When it ended,Stalin was selling grain when millions died every year.
In other worlds,your SI just denied Wall Street banksters tsar gold.They would be no happy with him,especially after they pay Trocky so he could hire thugs and win revolution.
Part of Syberia in Japan puppet hand? good.In OTL soviet made in Magadan series of Gulags which was practicallu death camps - i read memories of polish citizen which go there with 11 friends.After one year he and 2 others survived,and every day somebody died near him.All happy,that it is end.
Back to topic - russian produced french designed 122mm howitzers,76mm and 107mm guns.Maybe your SI could get plans for them?
All in all - good stories.In Destroyermen you could add more states made by people who come before 1942 - of course,rather on islands.England maybe? Saxons with steam ironclad would be funny.
Maybe add King Arthur fighting them in another Ironclad ?
!632 - it would be fun,if Poland,Russia,Turkey,Persia and Spain all get their own city from 2000.
So,you are planning southern Russia n Khazastan? good,in OTL Stalin genocided 30% of population there.Weaker soviets would be unable to help Hitler start WW2,and if they start making kolchoz people could destroy it from within.Some of the Tsar's gold was also sent to Kemal's Ankara government as well n the early twenties as well. As for the Romanovs, in the original, or very early draft of this (which featured more meta Cyoa inclusion being more of an SI) there wwere plans to add a Russian aristocrat to the harem, but I did more or less decide to scrap that.
However it should be pointed out that Maria's survival is part of the reason Lord Mountbatten is so decidedly friendly with 'Northern China' as opposed to Chiang Kai-Shek's KMT.
As for French designed artillery the French Schneider 1917, and that comes via way of Finland... (because League of Nations Arms embargo prohibits buying directly from France in early interwar years), the 122 is a good gun, but as for the 76 they're already building the a variant on the 7.7 Field kannone Neuer Arte by 1915 (bought pre War) as they're mobile field gun. Once Southern Russian stabilizes (the sort of Kazakhstan in this timeline) stabilizes they'll be buying up (C17s, and three inch artillery under British support (after Churchill rejoins the British government in the mid twenties) and production will more or less be entirely domestic until the end of the LoN Arms embargo (which actually applied to some industrial machinery as well) this is why most of the imported gear during this period is Czech, Swedish, Swiss because those countries weren't party to the League Of Nations embargo on selling to China (and yes there was smuggling in from France, the US, Britain and so one to get around the embargo, but that is something I will expand upon further when we get to the Inter war years in the new version)
For Destroyermen I have some ideas to that effect. the canonical Czech legion of Destroyermen play a larger role, I have plans for a napoleonic era faction (i won't say who until I put up), It won't be Saxons, but there will be a Dreadnought type ship showing up with the crew speaking Old english in the story later on.
1632 Is something I haven't done much with, I 've been meaning to go back to it again, crack open the RPG book for it, and do some stuff (Particularly since the more recent books have pivoting towards China, Japan and India in their far flung adventures) If I threw Turkey Istanbul, or Ankara or Tehran or Karaj would be a politically interesting its not something I've sat down and seriously charted.
The Soviet Polish War in 1920 still occurred while the Whites were still in the field, and was basically Stalin and friends deciding on it with the red cavalry with little to no consideration paid to what Trotsky as War Commissar thought [actually this is kind of a trend in the Russian Civil War where a number of people decided to haying off whereever they felt] So I kind of feel that Stalin once he was in power was going to go after Poland, as mentioned in the snippets Poland is a lot more economically valuable than the Russian Far East c. 1920, without those regions to spend money Stalin will probably continue to build up in the Urals yes, but he had arguably more reason to ally with Hitler. [Stalin historically repeatedly ignored signs of Nazi aggression because, it logically didn't make sense for the Nazis to attack from his perspective as Stalin had been trying to get into the Axis (contributed towards his great distrust of GB and Churchhill in particular)]So,you are planning southern Russia n Khazastan? good,in OTL Stalin genocided 30% of population there.Weaker soviets would be unable to help Hitler start WW2,and if they start making kolchoz people could destroy it from within.
Destroyermen - problem with it are big lizards and Grik-like lizard cyvilizations.I doubt,that any people with technology from Napoleon time would survive on mainland,unless it is without thinking lizards/like in Destroyermen South Africa/
For that reason,i do not think that any human cyvilisation in Asia or Europa is possible,unless they come after 1850 or do not meet cyvilized lizards.Maybe in mountains only? Napoleonic Switzerland would be fun.
1632 - no big cities,small town like in canon.I do not think,that small polish or russian town without army could help much on its own,but their knowledge is another case.Problem is,how Polish King,tsar ,Ottomans or other rulers would use that knowledge.
Polish lings of this era was capable,but polish gentry keep their powers in line,and do not liked idea of no-gentry coruling country with them.In tsar and Ottomans it was easily - everybody was tsar/sultan slave,so they could do whatever they liked.
The Soviet Polish War in 1920 still occurred while the Whites were still in the field, and was basically Stalin and friends deciding on it with the red cavalry with little to no consideration paid to what Trotsky as War Commissar thought [actually this is kind of a trend in the Russian Civil War where a number of people decided to haying off whereever they felt] So I kind of feel that Stalin once he was in power was going to go after Poland, as mentioned in the snippets Poland is a lot more economically valuable than the Russian Far East c. 1920, without those regions to spend money Stalin will probably continue to build up in the Urals yes, but he had arguably more reason to ally with Hitler. [Stalin historically repeatedly ignored signs of Nazi aggression because, it logically didn't make sense for the Nazis to attack from his perspective as Stalin had been trying to get into the Axis (contributed towards his great distrust of GB and Churchhill in particular)]
As for destroyermen, the Grik IIRC only have a limitted foothold in the Med basin in Europe, when I say Napoleonic think further north (Obviously its not France we already have a French faction in canon even if they're the bad guys)
Remaining at a napoleonic level of technology is relatively easy to explain, ductile metal working as an art has been around for a long time, brass is very easy to work with, so looking backwards from where we are now metallic cartridges looks for example pretty obvious. The minie ball was simiarlly a kind of in hindsight 'duh' development (and was actually developed in parallel we just say Minie ball because of the fame associated with it) Berdan and Boxer primer were American, and English developments respectively (the great cold war joke being the Soviets decided to keep with the Union's primer, while the United States chose england's primer and actually have a greater degree of chemistry requirement. Paper cartridges were widely common in the Napoleonic and remained alongside metallic cartridge firing rifles into the early 1900s. The great reason to stick at a napoelonic tech level is the chemistry infrastructure necessary though to produce primers as well as smokeless gunpowder. [we will get to that in a minute]Destroyermen - it would be hard to explain why they remained on napoleonic technology level.So,maybe small group get,meet stone age people,and must start from the beginning.
If those stone age people was Neandertals and their population reemain mostly pure/thanks to small number of newcomers/ ,it would be fun to meet army of Neandertals in napoleon-style uniforms.
He need buy fast,Vickers would not send him anything after WW1 start.And Mondragon rifles - good idea,semi-automatic rifle mean a lot.Problem is,they need to be very clean to work.Not easy goal in china mud.
Pity,that he do not knew about Awtamat Fedorowa - first prototype was made in 1912,if i remember correctly.
Part of it was money. The British Army was the less prestigious arm of the military, and machine guns had not been especially useful in the Boer wars, which had been what prompted the British to adopt the SMLE from the long lees and by some of what I've read the implication seems to be that on top of money there was a lot of institutional inertia that Infantry in the army was what won battles, and that it was better to go ahead and spend that money adopting a universal 'short rifle' than trying to purchase maxims for which there wasn't much doctrine for. Another part of the issue was that the British Army was a purely professional force and as a result when war was declared there was resistance to the Draft from the army side of things. It happened but the maxim being more popular with the Royal Navy seems to be a case of money, and the Navy clearly having a doctrine for it. Also in Army service Machine guns were part of the artillery, who probably didn't much appreciate its presenceI read,that british army buy only small number of HMG,becouse....nobody knew why.I once read that they thought that HMG should be used only against savages,not another white man.But,even for british,it is too stupid.
Now,i get a book about soviet artillery,and it is also about with what they started - so,i knew what tsar had:
1.Schneider 76mm for calvary and infrantry variant.-in 1913 russians consideret it as obsolate.
2.Schneider 76mm mountain gun/1909/.from 1916 they start delivered variant for normal infrantry/close support/
3.122 mm Krupp howitzer/1909/
4.122mm Schneider howitzer/1910/ do not ask me,why they produced both.
5.107mm Schneider heavy gun/1910/
6.152mm Schneider howitzer/1910/
7.In 1914 they take 76mm gun and modified it to be AA.but it was only half-measure and never really mass produced
8.mortars - they copied french and made their own 47mm/400m range/ and 89mm,but all during WW1.
9.in 1916 they start producing 37mm trench guns - both russian and american/McLean-automatic gun/
MClEAN WAS READY IN 1909!. So,you could buy it from USA in 1913 - especially,that nobody wanted it - you get it cheap!.
And it would be wery good AT guns against light tanks.
All that guns/or most of them/ you could capture when Russia fall.Take engineers running from soviet paradise,too.
You need trucks - but you should buy them from USA.Till 1917 it should be possible.Hold tractors for heavy artillery,too.
P.S i still would like to see Neandrtals in napoleon -style uniforms !
But even if it would not be possible - soviets in OTL modified 122mm and 152mm howitzers before WW2,so your SI could do the same.
76mm gun was modified,too
Unfortunatelly,AA,infrantry guns and mortars was obsolate - except 37mm McLean gun,which could be your AT.
This is something I've considered but the primary issue is that in 1919, the May 5th agreement goes into effect, this is Arm Embargo that entered into force that day specifically limitted of what could be brought into China, this included Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium Italy, the UK, Spain, the US, France, Japan, Russia (eye roll here), Brasil, and Portugal. I can't find a specific statement that Norway signed onto this agreement (though I wouldn't be surprised if I did) but Norway's government in 1919 was operating under some quirky policies. Skoda (the Czechs,) and Sweden are as a result of this bit of international wrangling end up supplying a lot of the inter war years equipment and tooling up as a lot of the heavier equipment, 'military machine tooling' and so forth continued to be unavailable until the late twenties when most of the signatory decided 'ok this is dumb' (and certainly it was true that a lot of people were flagrantly violating (cough Vickers cough) the May 5th agreement, just not in 1919 when it first went into effect.)According to wiki,USA would buy AA version of 37mm McClean guns with better powder,but war ended and nothing come of it.You still could buy it,it would be chaeaper.
P.S i accidentally discovered that german lost their HC Blucher during WW2 to Norwegian using old A-H naval guns and torpedoes/most of them malfunctioned/
Norvegia buy it very cheap when A-H ceased to exist and Austria must sold all their naval armament cheaply and quickly.
A-H also produced good fighters and engines,and must destroy them all.Your SI could buy them ,too.
Engines - Austro-Daimler and Warchałowski - Eissler,
planes - german Albatross D.3 with stronger austrian engine,And austrian aviatik/Berg D.1 Last construction was modernized german Brandenburg D.1 produced as Phonix D.1/2/3.
Later Sweden produced it as J.1.
All was good,but becouse Berg was produced in 6 various factories and was not german construction,it would be probably most easy to get.
Skoda guns was taken by Czech,so you could not get them cheapely.
This is slightly hyperbole, the danes by all indications attempted to deter their firms from selling arms, that didn't stop madsens and other arms from showing up in the twenties but the government of denmark at least didn't consider the arms embargo a dead letter they were just somewhat ineffectual within a few years."The Commercial aspect of the matter is that american concerns are losing many profitable sales of munitions, as the US governments seems to be the only one which attempts to prevent its nationals from securing munitions contracts. The Arms embargo is a dead letter except as regards americans."
This is something I've considered but the primary issue is that in 1919, the May 5th agreement goes into effect, this is Arm Embargo that entered into force that day specifically limitted of what could be brought into China, this included Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium Italy, the UK, Spain, the US, France, Japan, Russia (eye roll here), Brasil, and Portugal. I can't find a specific statement that Norway signed onto this agreement (though I wouldn't be surprised if I did) but Norway's government in 1919 was operating under some quirky policies. Skoda (the Czechs,) and Sweden are as a result of this bit of international wrangling end up supplying a lot of the inter war years equipment and tooling up as a lot of the heavier equipment, 'military machine tooling' and so forth continued to be unavailable until the late twenties when most of the signatory decided 'ok this is dumb' (and certainly it was true that a lot of people were flagrantly violating (cough Vickers cough) the May 5th agreement, just not in 1919 when it first went into effect.)
In short without being overly spoilery for winter into spring of 1918-19 there is a very brief period where the Trade Mission is going to go spend crazy particularly in Feburary and march of 1919 but then the spigot gets slammed shut and most foreign procurement 'legally' shifts to Sweden, Switzerland, the Czechs, and then gradually Great Britian in the mid twenties, Germany, and the United States as things open back up.
The Weimar Government was invited to the treaty (I don't know off hand if they ever signed, but they were apparently open to the idea in 1926, but had not apparently signed on to it in 28), but the US State Department was actively trying to stop arms trade (including from non signatories, Czechoslovakia) even into 1928 because there was still relatively strong support for it in the US government which lasted until 1929 even though by that point it was basically recognition that it hadn't worked and the US more or less claimed a win because of the Northern expedition had sort of united the country more or less.
CC Batchelder at the time wrote:
This is slightly hyperbole, the danes by all indications attempted to deter their firms from selling arms, that didn't stop madsens and other arms from showing up in the twenties but the government of denmark at least didn't consider the arms embargo a dead letter they were just somewhat ineffectual within a few years.
Yeah, I'm in the process of looking up of looking thatSo,A-H and german stuff you could only buy from Sweden and Czech.Pity.But - as you mentioned,maybe Norwegian could buy it for you.
Yeah, I'm in the process of looking up of looking that
... by which I mean I asked someone else about Norwegian foreign policy in the period, but while I haven't found concrete evidence that they signed on to the arms embargo (certainly it doesn't seem to have done so in 1919) the general policy of neutrality probably eliminates them at least before 1921. Sweden and the Czechs are probably the most likely.
Anything from England will have to be from an English firm like Vickers, though Hadley Page and a few others willfully circumvented the May 5th agreement repeatedly despite John Jordan (UK Ambassador, and architect of the agreement) complaining, so yeah its something I'm looking into.
And then with Germany the advantage is they blatantly lied even during the Weimar republic of 'oh no this stuff is totally stuff we had at the end of the war' regarding military equipment being developed and then labelled Model 1919 or otherwise implied to have been from that, and then general sold via Sweden or the Swiss.