• The site has now migrated to Xenforo 2. If you see any issues with the forum operation, please post them in the feedback thread.
  • Due to issues with external spam filters, QQ is currently unable to send any mail to Microsoft E-mail addresses. This includes any account at live.com, hotmail.com or msn.com. Signing up to the forum with one of these addresses will result in your verification E-mail never arriving. For best results, please use a different E-mail provider for your QQ address.
  • For prospective new members, a word of warning: don't use common names like Dennis, Simon, or Kenny if you decide to create an account. Spammers have used them all before you and gotten those names flagged in the anti-spam databases. Your account registration will be rejected because of it.
  • Since it has happened MULTIPLE times now, I want to be very clear about this. You do not get to abandon an account and create a new one. You do not get to pass an account to someone else and create a new one. If you do so anyway, you will be banned for creating sockpuppets.
  • Due to the actions of particularly persistent spammers and trolls, we will be banning disposable email addresses from today onward.
  • The rules regarding NSFW links have been updated. See here for details.

Pax's Alternate History Snippet repository.

September 1916 Part 2
September 1916
Part 2
He'd spent the morning dealing with the steel side of the business, and the large forgings pressed out by the presses built in answer to the Entente's voracious steel appetite. The trip had meant only getting in after Bill and John Paul had started, "The Green Gang," Bill questioned, "Those are those assholes Scabby is always scrapping with, what's a bunch of Shanghai gangsters got to do with the canal?"

"Cause they weren't always big city gangsters." and because they weren't just limited to Shanghai. The explanation rambled into a history of the canal, and its eventual ridiculous system of hereditary boatmen, inevitable government corruption... and so forth.

Bill whistled and reached for the whisky. "Alright the green gang, which just underscores that we need actual police. Look, my daddy will be the first tell you one riot one ranger is blustering nonsense, and you always want as many men as you can put quick," He glanced to Allen who shrugged for him to keep on, "but we're going to need to start somewhere, and if they're rangers or some sort of constabulary but we have to do something."

"JP wants a series of schools, I guess one of them will have to teach military politce officers. Two hundred men?"

"What would that come out to?"

"Three companies roughly," Military Police were never the size of stand up riflemen so it would work, "we could call it a battalion."

JP nodded, "If it needs a fancier name, we can use gendarmes."

The last two years had changed the cadre. Oh theoretically it was still supposed to be one vote per member, but the exit of so many stock holding members and consolidating of stock had changed things... and in some ways that had made voting simpler. The idea of 'Gendarmes' being something they could just hash most of the details out before bringing it into committee would have been unheard of just two years earlier. They'd probably still have to talk some people around, but there was already an acceptance to raising mroe troops. "So the Green Gang?"

"Its a pretty simple racket provincial gangs steal from neighboring provinces and smuggle tobacco for example that then gets sold off to make counterfeit cigarettes." That did explain the case of tobacco, "its not just that. The trade goes both ways, they bring guns in from Canada for example we know that, they probably facilitated some of Bai Lang's shipping for a nominal fee." If the canal system had been in better shape then they'd have been able to reach further, but it did make some explanation to the maneuvering Bai Lang had made in the autumn of 1913.

The conversation twisted itself up into knots about what to do with that bit of trivia. Bai Lang had been dead two years, whatever surviving organized part of his host was only as close as Szechwan and more likely in Yuunan. With the war on, Canadian arms were scarce and while it wasn't impossible that thieved weapons could still come in, there were other matters now. They could tell the municipal police force in the international quarter, but that assumed that they didn't know.

and in truth... he should have, would have probably had a better chance of knowing if not for everything else related to the European War and all the business it generated that Bill had no interest in waiting for 1917 to start trying to put his Rangers together... but his impediment had been finding experts and men willing to build something like what had been built in the Philippines, and that would end up shaping the body when it was finally approved after the fact really.
--
The train ride east hadn't been an issue. No one so much batted an eye the uniformed men. People were used to it now, and Allen supposed it was probably the same in Europe.

Hunan was starting to split at the seams, and the bandits coming over the border would only intensify, which would only worsen conditions in Shansi and Shensi... provinces that Duan was unlikely to give two shits about. Duan didn't have the money for that, and even if he had his focuses were on the eastern, the coast of Zhili and looking directly south. While Duan appreciated the Ma family's verbal support, and any taxes was better than none, it was a pittance against the arrears peking managed to spend.

Cao Kun on the other hand, well even aside his post as minister of railways and communications, had more personal reasons to support Siems-Carey and anything like it. "Your minister Reinsch is greatly in favor it." He remarked sipping his champagne, "And with all the bandit problems it would make things easier."

This whole mess reeked of nepotism. Cao Kun was alright, Allen didn't dislike the man, "I'd prefer it in ink. Verbal agreements make the Europeans ornery."

"Written agreements they don't like make them worse."

"Yeah, but if its written I can send Lansing a copy." Cao Kun nodded at this, and refilled his probably fifth glass of champagne, and the implicit comment that the secretary would interdict attempts to fuss... that and, "What about the Ma's?"

"They don't do railways," he shook his head dismissively. "If they run regularly then that's enough, but if you could take Hongkui on," One of Cao Kun cousins, or inlaws, "He's going back to fight bandits, he could use the help."

"Kansu?"

"Technically yes, but bandits like dogs don't much care for lines drawn on maps."

All too true, "How are talks going for the southern line?


He sighed, "Duan," Who'd been prime minister coming up on three months now, "doesn't want to issue gold bonds. He'd rather just go back to the old way of doing it."

"Any particular reason why?"

"Parliament. It would be easier to just follow what's worked, but the Europeans talk about their old agreements and then say they don't have the capital." Duan wanted to follow Yuan's policies of supporting the entente, go further and send troops overseas if the talking was to be believed, and that chatter was getting louder. "So we're just supposed to linger and do nothing."

"I can build the western railways." He stated, "But the southern line is out of the question. Hunan is coming part at the seams as it is. IF the province breaks out into full warfare it'll be messy." That and there was no appetite to building railways through hunan after the debacle that would eventually lead into the October 1911 debacle. "I've told the old man that if conditions hold we can run a rail line all the way to urumqi."

"A thousand miles," Cao Kun declared, "Can you really go that far west?"

"As conditions hold. Year after next, really probably 1919 before its commercial, and that's discounting rolling stock and engines needed for regular travel." There were reasons to go that far west, but nothing to the sheer value of Xian. Xian's population and unlike Hankou or Peking, made it an excellent foundation for sustaining industry. They wouldn't have to share the city with anyone, there were no other concessions there, and they even had the appreciation of the neighbors, which was always nice. "If Hongkui can handle bandit suppression then the engineers can oversee construction," He settled for the last word than talking about berms and bridges and the rest that would be need, and just omitted any overt mention of dynamite. The conversation drifted to the salt tax, and other matters. On paper Duan's War Participation Army, had to love the names the bureaucracy came up with things, sounded theoretically like General Wood's preparedness campaign... but the differences in political structure made them wildly different. There was no way parliament would approve the money needed for which would have to come from somewhere.

It seemed unlikely that the US would approve loans directly, but might indirectly through the circuitous pathways money had begun to disperse... often going from New York financiers, to London ones then dispersed to others only to then be used to purchase goods elsewhere than the final state. US loans money to England, England loans money to Japan, Japan loans money to China? It seemed a stretch, but Allen had no idea whether John Jordan would support Duan, where he almost certainly would have supported Yuan if he had attempted it.

"I don't doubt, Duan can recruit two hundred thousand me."

Cao Kun nodded, "He could, certainly, but as you've surmised there is the matter of arming them, clothing them, providing for them." Men if you were desperate were cheap, for centuries, thousands of years the life blood of any army had been levees of peasants to swell the ranks. Money, it always came down to money.

The European war was a meat grinder of soldiers' lives. The Gallipoli mess had killed almost a hundred ninety thousand men in Imperial (British Empire) losses according to what they'd been told... and it had been a dismal failure. There was no telling how many Turkish boys had died in the defense either, probably at least as many.

Cao Kun departed a quarter past three, but his departure allowed the elder Forrest to step past Captain Deng and shut the door leaving the captain looking flustered. "What do you charge the brits for pig iron?"

Allen scratched his brow, "I think its fixed at fifty dollars," They weren't under cutting anyone just splitting the difference for the year, the British needed raw materials. It was no secret. It was also no secret that European demand for steel was in no way going to decline. Not with the war still going, and Carnegie able to produce more steel than the Central powers could all combined. "We know it 'll go up next year, market demand is high."

He got a look thrown over as the stopper opened on the bourbon, "Lansing had a charming conversation with the French. Who want us to affix price controls to the steel industry. Others, for the public interest." He turned with three fingers poured, "Don't scoff, we'll be in the war next year, for sure if the Republicans win, if it happens Wilson plans to ask Lansing to step down so he can appoint the president elect to the job, and then he and the vice president will both call it quits."

Allen blinked, "You're kidding."

"I am not, even if the republicans don't win Wilson has taken too many steps for us not to get involved. Lansing will get his way, and has boxed the president in, especially with Wilson too preoccupied with General Wood." The glass sat down, "Which of course is why, well Edenborn has been adamant that the war is a European affair, should remain a European affair and that Germany is no threat to the United States." Which was not the sort of thing to make one popular with New York's elite...

"He's not wrong. Edward Gray's panicking in 1914 should have gotten him thrown into an asylum for hysteria," His response was to cover the pit opening up in his stomach. The old man read the mail. He read probably everyone's mail, and if not the actual mail then certainly all the cables, and had the phone lines tapped, which JP should have known.

"Duan Qirui wants to join the war, and I expect from the conversations he's had with the professor," Reinsch, "that that will be doubled down on when we enter. There are expectations about what will come out."

"I'm aware about the war participation army, in fact I just had a conversation about it."

"Cao Kun, I'm not surprised. Kitchin is in talks with Edenborn, they expect there will be a draft and that they can shepherd some poor little lambs over here for the conflict."

"Do you know what happened in July of 1914?" He asked his father, "Pretty much every, or at least much of the socialists of Europe abruptly forgot all about the peace pacts and rallied for war."

"They have souls after all," The old man snorted, sipped from the crystal smacked his lips in approval, and then asked "What's your point?"

"Edenborn's proposal does let them get out of the queue, they'll be out of the country and the war can't last more than another couple years. The end of the decade. They'll be harmless and out of the way, and they'll be useful when the US comes in because they'll be over here in jobs that will contribute to selling to the Europeans."

"That's optimistic."

"Lansing doesn't want a spectacle with the socialists, anyone out of the country won't get drafted or he'll permit exemptions and waivers."

He had expected a laugh, or a snort, but it never came, "And how can you know that?"

"Because the British have already exempted," For all intents and purposes, "the Irish from compulsory military service. There is no conscription in Ireland."

"Then you had best have all your ducks in a row, if you mean to have Lansing as fait accompli, and best you not forget they could always recall you to active duty." Reactivation of his commission seemed unlikely, and would almost certainly entail an expansion of the armed services that would require a promotion two or three grades to warrant pulling him out of his comfortable civilian industrial position.

"Do you know something?" He asked, fishing, Obviously Fishing.

"Not today. I'll tell you about it soon... but not today son."
--
Notes: The US Selective Service Act was presented to Wilson officially in December of 1916, but had it origins probably as early as 1914 or even 1911 in its most basic forms. (Mexico's revolutionary actions and the prospect of a second mexican american war was a very real concern in this period.) As it happens though, the US exempted teachers from first round of draft service and so by and large the SSA didn't send any of them over there, unless they volunteered.

France's complaints about the expense of ww1 actually started in1914, though that was initially, largely confined to complaining about the British, (By 1916 they finally achieved a common pricing arrangement with the English over coal) but quickly turned to complaining about the US practices. This would eventually culminate in Wilson voluntarily pausing the loans interest payments France had taken out in the war, this was unpopular but frankly the Franc was subject to devaluation and inflation was rampant, and highlighted a number of other problems in the pre war french economy and its undeveloped banking system.
 
British joined war,send army,but...do not really blocked germans from shipping.Formally,yes - but germans buy war materials through Sweden,Denmark,and Holland.In last case there was even reloading stuff almost from british ships to germans.
So,they do not wonted end of war,but bleeding all major powers.Hence helping germans again from 1918.

It would worked,if it was only prussia - but London forget,that they arleady conqered other german states.They should either made Saxony,Bawaria etc free again and then support prussia,or not support united germany.
 
British joined war,send army,but...do not really blocked germans from shipping.Formally,yes - but germans buy war materials through Sweden,Denmark,and Holland.In last case there was even reloading stuff almost from british ships to germans.
So,they do not wonted end of war,but bleeding all major powers.Hence helping germans again from 1918.

It would worked,if it was only prussia - but London forget,that they arleady conqered other german states.They should either made Saxony,Bawaria etc free again and then support prussia,or not support united germany.
That was part of the reason in 1917 the House of Windsor and the wide swathe of other British aristocracy changed their names, Saxe Coburg-Gotha became windsor, the Montbattens became a thing, etc the degree of 'german' nobility went back centuries even into the Scottish, and to a lesser extent the irish peerages in 1914 as long as there was a basic fig leaf of well Sweden in particular its only in and after 1915 the Royal navy seems to realize oh this wont be just a year of squabbling on the continent and of course the Royal Navy during WW1 and immediately after had a lot of instituional problems (In the official history of the war from the British side the Royal Navy who didn't want to be siddled with what they considered 'busy work' completely dismissed the convoy system, because they weren't sinking uboats very often, and were dismissive of merchant raiding in favor of big battleship gun duels.
 
October 1916
October 1916
Stacked on his desk was a mass of receipts, and production filings.

Fifty dollars per gross ton of Pig Iron was about forty percent profits. They had fixed it at an even number, for bulk, but it underlined just how much England was consuming that demand was as high as it was. Before the war England probably would have blanched at paying in dollars, but that was less the case from last year on. Prices were growing high, and England's war industry had been looking for other avenues to keep the agreement. Promising other contracts, and hoping for other abilities to contend with a fully integrated firm, the term Reinsch had used to describe them was the American 'Class I' or 'fully integrated', in this case in the metallurgical trade, steel and iron manufacturing where they did everything from coal and ore, to the mills turning out the finished steel. Britain's demand wasn't just for pig iron. Steel per ton was nearly double the value of pig iron after all.

They were large bulky products churned by industrial processes and Britain handled all the transportation responsibilities once they hit the port. There were no export duties, or tariffs they went aboard a British flagged ship and then to India, Australia, wherever. "God in heaven John Allen." Percival Graves declared, "I leave you for two years, and you do this." He paused clearly, "Its like Chicago."

"Really? It kind of reminds me of Birmingham," Allen paused, "Ours not yours," He clarified.

"Enough guns to be Birmingham." Percy remarked, speaking of England's. "Still have those Five Nines do you, saw enough of their work over there." Percy was in the uniform, but truthfully Allen hadn't asked, and didn't intend to ask what it was Percy had been recalled to do for King and Country in Europe... though it had involved something in Switzerland, or at least trips to Lucerne and Geneva. "What do you have here?"

"Third Battalion rotated here with me. Battery C has been stationed here since 1914." Since they'd defended the city from Bai's charge. There had been worry about a riot if they tried to relocate the guns to another posting, "Dawes wants to produce more of them."

"Will you let him?"

"Next year, year after probably." He replied. "Given all the trouble we're hiring." That and, Duan Qirui was a red leg, and if anything held normal, he'd be looking at probably another fight down south before too long.

"John Jordan laments Yuan Shikai's passing of course," The Englishman placed an insincere hand over his heart, "China would very much like to join the entente cordial," He shook his head, and paced towards the window, "So far its just the labor corps the money for this war participation army just isn't there." Percy was watching the posted sentries down below.

He answered the question before Percy could ask, "They're our production version of the Mausers. Lloyd George said something about a new pattern Rifle."

"The Mark 1 Star, are you going to be able tool to produce them?"

"If they finalize a design, we could."

"Probably means," Lloyd George, "to have you build them for ANZAC, or South Africa."

The contract would be a nice bonus. "His Majesty's government doesn't want us making guns for the professional British Army?" He joked.

"Its not like that at all, just that. It would be less trouble to ship anything you make do Australia or Africa... and Australia can't make her own rifles anyway." IT was odd that Australia differed from Canada in that respect. Australia had no major powder factory capable of meeting war time needs. "Three hundred thousand rifles total, 303 inche, thirty two dollars a rifle."

He hadn't actually known Percy was coming with the plan to drop that kind of information, but he schooled his expression. "What's the catch?" More than that possibility, this underscored the concerns about Liu bringing new tooling into the country, buying that off him, or Duan just ratcheted up in terms of importance.

"Production of, second line and reserve weapons guards, postmen so forth has been successful. Given the number of rifles needed at the front, anyone with the tooling and the experience making arms is being considered. Now that you've finished those orders this is what's next. The step up, in all honesty, if this comes off, it'll be Lewis's gun next. Lloyd George is very serious that all Imperial Troops should be treated equally."

Allen frowned, "Thirty two dollars for a rifle is nice, Percy." Even accounting for tooling up, and so on, and dealing with the British's obsession with their frankly antiquated rimmed dwarf. "Producing a 303 Lewis, would entail issues. I'm telling you up front that there could be machining issues, teething going to a rimmed cartridge."

"That'd be just a delay, you'd get it. Your chum Isaac insured BSA could do it, and surely that deal you did with the Belgians means you know what to do."

"We would get there, yes. Just that a bolt gun is a different, more mature animal than a machine gun." He spread his hands out, "I just want you to know that. Now since you have brought up FN, and our deal, I would recommend that if the minister of munitions," Wonderfully alliterative, "brings it up, that of pistols."

"There will be an issue in chambering in 455?"

"Just the tooling change over, but it would cheaper to not change, and just 45 caliber government. Automatic Colt Pistol are already being made and I know that you've purchased guns from colt in both calibers. We could do either, but expediency and prince favors one rather clearly." That, and technically speaking they had been manufacturing 1911s at the arsenal before 1914 just not in anything other than hand built small batch orders for officers."

"I do appreciate that candor, John Allen. His Majesty's government appreciates it."
--
You only really noticed the quality of a rifle's accuracy past three hundred yards, and that was if you knew what you were looking for. It was the way the rifle opened up, and that meant you had to be used to shooting at the range, and of course there were factors besides the rifle itself. Ammunition effected a rifle. British barrels, the steel they were made out of, disliked smokeless fast burning powders. Hence cordite, which Dawes, and Phillips both informed him separately was better for 'small' caliber artillery.

The Five Nines didn't use cordite.

Ma Anliang was visitng the city and watched the guns' results as they hit the artillery range's targets with the glee that Percy clearly didn't share. Even though Bai Lang had died to a rifle shot, that had penetrated just under his eye and blown out the back of his skull, most of his bandits killed during that little war had been cut down by artillery. Much like most of the people in the European war were dying from the work of artillerymen.

Old Ma, nodded to the younger Ma officer from one of the province of Gansu's Brigades. The younger Ma was portly and glasses and had been made a division commander ... well within two years of graduating from his local military academy. The sixty year old Ma was skinny, and bald up top but had finally put a grey uniform on instead of the old Hui braves black version... now if only the pony tail general would do the same for the rest of his wu wei corp. Allen supposed that it really didn't matter.

"These are new barrels?"

"Yes, these were bored out here." He made a wave towards one of the smokestacks in the distance... Xian's population base would support industry far better than any of the smaller towns... regardless of what Percy thought about eight hour factory shifts. "This will be the first step to building new ones next year. Once the breechs and carriages are up to quality we'll be in a position to manufacture entirely new pieces here."

Ma Anliang nodded contemplatively stroking his wispy beard.

"What about the mortars?"

He wondered if Percy had heard that Yan Xishan had expressed an interest to Powell about the pieces at the latters trip to the Shansi Machine Bureau. Mortars weren't really a new weapon, but their latest innovation made them much more handy for infantry. "Not at this range percy, we fire them off at the infantry berm."

"are you quite serious?"

"its the ammunition." As Griswold was quick to point out, "It needs better ammunition. I understand it was a field expedient solution," But if he had to hear the red legs complain about eight hundred yards being spitting distance one more time, "suffice to say we can go there next." Which was what they did. As part of measures to make furnishing rifles to the brigade they had made certain revisions to the Mausers taking cues from both the US's lessons as well as making the decision to pay attention to the Brits, among others. The greatest example of the first and last coming together was the new two piece butt stock and a stronger pistol grip. There had been talk of more pronounced checkering but that had been forgone just to save time.

The riflemen from Company A of the third were not pushing to the thousand yard mark, even though the two hundred grain mauser would do it, and go further still. When they were finished they stuck around to watch the mortar specialists set up oogling the new piece of equipment.
 
French invented new ammo to english mortars,hence Stockes/english/-Brandt/french/,but dunno when.You knew,you could invent it before frogs,and get a lot of money from all factories on world.
About making Lewis as LMG - Madsen was supposed to be better,why not made that?
 
French invented new ammo to english mortars,hence Stockes/english/-Brandt/french/,but dunno when.You knew,you could invent it before frogs,and get a lot of money from all factories on world.
About making Lewis as LMG - Madsen was supposed to be better,why not made that?
Most of the Brandt modifications had already been done by the US chemical corp (who were responsible for mortars in the interwar years (Don't ask, US Army post war organization / early 20th century organization is weird at best, outright schizophrenic at worst) actually the earliest modifications are for US production 1919 mortars... but then the armistice happens and congress stops giving people money

The Madsen had a couple of advantages, its not as expensive as the Lewis, its slightly lighter, but perhaps the biggest is you can change a Madsen's barrel quickly. Its basically the first LMG were quick changing barrels is a thing. They both have clunk kind of shitty bipod designs, (The madsen has a good tripod design, but thats less important in the LMG role) ergonomics is a mixed bag on both guns, The Lewis due to feed issues on the Madsen is a better gun for defending a position while remaining mobile. Both the lewis and the madsen do well for professional troops (in point of fact modernized Madsens are still still inservice with Brasil's Military Police) The main advantage to the Lewis as an LMG is the magazine size, and that the magazine design is better than the Madsen feed system (its not perfect.

The situation here though is that Britain was not legally allowed to manufacture the Madsen, and had signed a memorandum with the Danish government before the war that it would not attempt to source non danish produced or licensed Madsen guns after the Rexer scandal (this is despite the fact that China had a Madsen production line, or two (there was one in the south in Canton, and there was probably another one in the north, but that may have been opened after). The British descision to use the Lewis also stemmed from doctrine reasons (they didn't really care about the weight difference, and the Lewis was considered better for doctrine than the Madsen, the Madsen was largely a reserve fall back option to the Lewis).

The main ultimate choice to make the decision to go with the Lewis over the Madsen is the gas system. Its a better mechanical system for a mobile weapon in the long term. Lewis's long stroke gas piston set up ends up being used through world war 2 in successor designs, and through the cold war. The Lewis's biggest problem is the interior and very dated by 1915 interior spring and gear arrangement, which can all be updated. The Madsen's rolling block style automatic action while reliable is harder to update, and thats really why its a long term dead end, with Long Stroke Gas Pistols you can eventually get eight and ten pound automatic rifles, which you can't do with a madsen.

In summary, we're going to see a lot of both weapons, and frankly the Lewis's direct design lineage, particularly the 1919 models and later will actually be realized here as mature designs as opposed to just adopting the heavier BAR.
--
TLDR the Madsen the shows up in action in Arc 1 both during the fighting surounding the July attempted manchu restoration in Zhili as well as making the trip to Russia on the trans siberian, and then through the conflicts in the twenties. Its really only the feed system that takes it out of competition in second world war for LMGs.
 
Most of the Brandt modifications had already been done by the US chemical corp (who were responsible for mortars in the interwar years (Don't ask, US Army post war organization / early 20th century organization is weird at best, outright schizophrenic at worst) actually the earliest modifications are for US production 1919 mortars... but then the armistice happens and congress stops giving people money

The Madsen had a couple of advantages, its not as expensive as the Lewis, its slightly lighter, but perhaps the biggest is you can change a Madsen's barrel quickly. Its basically the first LMG were quick changing barrels is a thing. They both have clunk kind of shitty bipod designs, (The madsen has a good tripod design, but thats less important in the LMG role) ergonomics is a mixed bag on both guns, The Lewis due to feed issues on the Madsen is a better gun for defending a position while remaining mobile. Both the lewis and the madsen do well for professional troops (in point of fact modernized Madsens are still still inservice with Brasil's Military Police) The main advantage to the Lewis as an LMG is the magazine size, and that the magazine design is better than the Madsen feed system (its not perfect.

The situation here though is that Britain was not legally allowed to manufacture the Madsen, and had signed a memorandum with the Danish government before the war that it would not attempt to source non danish produced or licensed Madsen guns after the Rexer scandal (this is despite the fact that China had a Madsen production line, or two (there was one in the south in Canton, and there was probably another one in the north, but that may have been opened after). The British descision to use the Lewis also stemmed from doctrine reasons (they didn't really care about the weight difference, and the Lewis was considered better for doctrine than the Madsen, the Madsen was largely a reserve fall back option to the Lewis).

The main ultimate choice to make the decision to go with the Lewis over the Madsen is the gas system. Its a better mechanical system for a mobile weapon in the long term. Lewis's long stroke gas piston set up ends up being used through world war 2 in successor designs, and through the cold war. The Lewis's biggest problem is the interior and very dated by 1915 interior spring and gear arrangement, which can all be updated. The Madsen's rolling block style automatic action while reliable is harder to update, and thats really why its a long term dead end, with Long Stroke Gas Pistols you can eventually get eight and ten pound automatic rifles, which you can't do with a madsen.

In summary, we're going to see a lot of both weapons, and frankly the Lewis's direct design lineage, particularly the 1919 models and later will actually be realized here as mature designs as opposed to just adopting the heavier BAR.
--
TLDR the Madsen the shows up in action in Arc 1 both during the fighting surounding the July attempted manchu restoration in Zhili as well as making the trip to Russia on the trans siberian, and then through the conflicts in the twenties. Its really only the feed system that takes it out of competition in second world war for LMGs.

What about turning Awtomat Fedorowa into LMG? russians was working on it from 1912,and in 1916 it saw action in Bruciłow offensiwe in small numbers.All you need is bigger magazine and bipod.
 
What about turning Awtomat Fedorowa into LMG? russians was working on it from 1912,and in 1916 it saw action in Bruciłow offensiwe in small numbers.All you need is bigger magazine and bipod.
Federov has the makings of a good Automatic rifle, not so much an LMG. They will show up, but not until after 1918, and realistically to make it a practical weapon, you need elite well trained troops. The Avtomat's biggest hang up is not so much the magazine capacity so much as they kept it in a semi rimmed cartridge, and it was a relatively complex machined receiver and the locking system, if it breaks is basically impossible to fix in the field.

If you rechambered the Federov into something like 6.5 Caracano (or for that matter given the Federov's original designed chamber, 6.5 swede, though probably not 7.92) you'd have a lot more reliable magazine design, the italian cartridge would just have the advantage a mild flat shooting cartridge that is rimless. But as you say, a bipod would be a plus, and a larger magazine is nice, but the Federov is less of a light machine gun and more akin to the BAR or Chauchat in terms of is capable of automatic fire but is more of a weapon of advance and offensive

Basically Arc2, circa 1920 is when there will be a little bit of everything gun wise reflecting the historical deluge of just whatever can be made, or smuggled in, and with different groups playing with all sorts of assault tactics
 
Federov has the makings of a good Automatic rifle, not so much an LMG. They will show up, but not until after 1918, and realistically to make it a practical weapon, you need elite well trained troops. The Avtomat's biggest hang up is not so much the magazine capacity so much as they kept it in a semi rimmed cartridge, and it was a relatively complex machined receiver and the locking system, if it breaks is basically impossible to fix in the field.

If you rechambered the Federov into something like 6.5 Caracano (or for that matter given the Federov's original designed chamber, 6.5 swede, though probably not 7.92) you'd have a lot more reliable magazine design, the italian cartridge would just have the advantage a mild flat shooting cartridge that is rimless. But as you say, a bipod would be a plus, and a larger magazine is nice, but the Federov is less of a light machine gun and more akin to the BAR or Chauchat in terms of is capable of automatic fire but is more of a weapon of advance and offensive

Basically Arc2, circa 1920 is when there will be a little bit of everything gun wise reflecting the historical deluge of just whatever can be made, or smuggled in, and with different groups playing with all sorts of assault tactics

Then remember about A-H and Germany plane factories - you could pick from 8or 9 which was put down in both countries.And russian engineers from weapon factories,too - good guns,and their Ilia Muromiec was hard to kill.Only one shoot down by germans cost them 3 Albatrosses./by the way - it is one of possible fighter to get - produced in both germany and A-H/
 
October 1916 Part 2
October 1916
Part 2
There was some good news at least, or suggestion that things might calm down in Tietsin. Allen put Reinsch's letter aside, apparently the minister felt that despite that unpleasantness and bother of the twenty one demands Kato's new party would be good for Japan. Something about wanting to allow all men the right to vote, or something. Old Man Yamagata disagreed that Kato would be good for Japan though less effusively than Reinsch's endorsement for Kato. The old man's argument lay in about Kato being rabble rouser prone to resigning dramatically if not given his way. Kato politically was going to be a mixed bag in all likelihood, and the rumor out of the British legation was that John Jordan wasn't particularly happy either. From the sound of England's side of the world Lloyd George was having a row with General Robertson... or rather another one.

It was beginning to get dusky outside, and a glance towards the distant skyline was met with the slow turning on of the streetlights... and of course if that wasn't enough to deter trouble makers there were graybacks posted with their rifles.

"No comment?"

"I couldn't say." Percy replied, "What about your problem here?"

Hongkui was officially on a mission of bandit suppression... and that would be all well and good so long as his focus stayed on bandits and not getting into a dispute with Chen, or Li, or more correctly any of the other provincial politicians. The last thing he wanted to deal with was the Ma clique coming to blows with Chen. Chen getting into a fight with Li over the latter's profess loyalties to the southern doctor would be almost as bad. "You read the telegram, Tsai O leaving has already resulted in fighting break out," In Szechwan, but it was doubtful that it would take long before it spread into the province's neighbors. Yunan was de facto independent of Peking, and Canton was in many ways close enough.... and in the latter case elections were coming to fill the slot in succession after Yuan had died. "Something is going to give." The question was rapidly becoming how big of a landslide, and where, and when. When, as a question would be oriented towards how and what they could answer with in response. "Next year by the latest,"

"So you'll build more Krupps."

"I'll build more Krupps," He agreed, admittedly it was one thing to build the three inchers, but actually constructing the larger guns would take time... and more realistically there were other things. Airpower was making an increasing impact in the European war, but the conflict was devouring both the raw materials to manufacture aircraft and there were no aircraft available to export... not with the war on. "It will take time, but its what we have." Percy frowned, and Allen rolled his chair leftwards to reach his scotch, "Krupp sold to half the planet, and if not Krupp guns they'd be American."

"What Artillery does America even make these days?" Percival Graves riposted a bit tartly.

"Fair point." But the war wouldn't go on forever, "Regardless we're prepared to take on new manufacturing contracts, and realistically given the past trends most of the fighting if any breaks out will be in the summer months, and down south, and in the east." He cleared his throat, "JP mentioned that you're running into wheat shortfalls."

"Did he?"

He couldn't be sure if Percy honestly didn't know, which was certainly possible, or had gotten better ducking comments, "You're buying wheat from the states is driving prices up, and from what I hear the Canadians are getting leery of selling on credit," Percy colored, at what was frankly a damning indictment of London's present financial condition. Allen was willing to bet money that when word got out that Britain, as a government, was buying the wheat under the table and selling it to English cartels at a loss price would increase significantly... and at that point, "Canada is going to want to start seeing money up front before too long. Maybe not this year,"

Percy nodded his face grave, "But soon." He admitted.

"You want to share your bad news?"

"John Jordan is returning to England... I think for good this time." Percy declared, "Sir Edward is concerned about the situation, though he can't say it... and his majesty's government has concerns about this tiff."
--
The summons had caught him off guard, but given the news from Percy it made since to return. It was as easy as simply catching a train going the right direction, and then changing over to a line that was heading to Tietsin. Tietsin's trolley chimed as it passed through the street below, and the gas lights merrily buzzed in the foreign quarter. "Did you know John Jordan is going back to England?"

"You've heard of Lansing's special investigators?" His question was answer with a question.

"State's Secret Service," He nodded, playing along.

A thick binding of papers was handed over, "Cryptography?" He asked paging past the cover sheet with a grimace.

"Between us," The Army, "And State. New cipher protocols are being implemented." The British had cut German undersea cables quickly after the war had started, and Lansing had used that to allow the US to eavesdrop of German wire messages, as well as often enough those of the other belligerents.

"So you've broken the Japanese naval and diplomatic codes."

"We have," The elder Forrest declared sitting back. "Keep reading," The old man ordered.

Allen flipped the page, eyebrows rose as he did so. "Oh." He muttered.

"Indeed." A pause, "We've confirmed it by reading the Russian's cables from the same time frame. If this were to get out though."

"It would torpedo American support for the European war," He put the last page of the document on the table. It was dated early the previous month, "The English, French and Russians have agreed to divide up the ottoman empire."

A nod, "As it sits Lansing is prepared to recognize Japan's special position in Manchuria, given its proximate relation to Korea. If this gets out we'll be lucky if Wilson doesn't turn apoplectic." That told him Lansing hadn't told Wilson about the intercept. "Now this isn't final. They haven't moved to final sanction, but its close enough that even if Wilson loses the election his successor won't bring us into the war if its out there."

"So whats the problem. Wilson doesn't know, Lansing clearly isn't going to tell him about this agreement between Monsieur Picot and Taters. If Japan knows, well who else knows?"

"The Italians," Not really a surprise, presumably with their own irredenta on the line they had to be on board. "John Jordan is not happy that this kind of agreement has been made, and we think its the reason he means to leave." The old man declared circling back to the question, "Now discounting your friendship with Edenborn, what would you do with that?"

"... Lansing knows Wilson wants him to resign if the other guy wins doesn't he?"

It had been a rhetorical question, "Of course he does." Probably because Lansing was reading the president's official correspondence not that anyone was going to admit to that in even private confidence. "Which one supposed means that Lansing has the theoretical ace to dictate a winning hand in either administration."

Lovely, "Are we on Lansing's side then?"

"He believes its in our best interest to sit on it, for the time being. Its in the American nation's interest to support England. You'll have complete copies of the documents whether you want to tell Mr Alston or Mr Graves after Jordan leaves, that's for you to decide." He didn't ask, but the question was answered without it needing to be, "As to the Minister? The professor has not been told, and I should hope he won't be until the matter has been decided."

There was a strong anglophile sentiment back east, but perhaps increasingly as strong was an opposition to something that would be perceived as turning the war into an excuse for the old world's Empires to carve out new territories. Then of course there was doing all this, versus Wilson's avowed dislike for secret diplomacy.

He didn't have a solid enough read on Alston, who had come in nominally to replace McCleay as councilor, but he had to have some tie to Gray. His whole showing up had smacked of Gray's penchant for screwing the pooch... like that publication back in July on Japan's side of thing, "Does Reinsch know about John Jordan leaving?"

"I couldn't say, but I doubt it. Its not public yet, and even if he has noticed something is up," what with all his sightseeing down south, "I doubt he has any idea why."
--
The European War had 'officially' for whatever that was worth, begun with the guns of august in 1914 two years past now. Britain, France and Canada had all started looking for more arms by the end of the month, and deals inked for them, and Russia as well by November. Winchester, Remington, Westinghouse, the like.

Politics had played a part, but even by the time the ink had been done for the first contracts had dried the English had already been pursuing other options. Nominally of course in service to the Entente Cordial... and european fellowship, civilization. It had left John Jordan disgusted for more than one reason, but the Ambassador had abided by the orders from London... and so guns had flowed out to replace colonial arms, and guards, and other troops. To free up Lee-Enfields for the real army, and the same for French, and Russian troops. That meant anything. Anything they could get their hands on. A process of what had been termed economic transitions, all apart of mobilization for total war.

That didn't mean England wasn't beholden to certain agreements, especially with neutral nations. For John Jordan in particular that meant brokering any sort of deal could not abrogate agreements from before the war. "Can you do it?"

Griswold look at him like he was a moron, "OF course we can do it." He snapped, then shrugged, "The Madsen would be cheaper and easier, but Lewis's gun is what it is. Did you tell that peckerwood it'd be a problem?"

"I told him we might run into issues with that rimmed dwarf."

"Why god damnit? Lewis sent us the whole technical package. I won't have any trouble." Griswold scoffed, and shrugged to emphasize his declaration.

"As a precaution Sam." He replied. The Royal Navy, Marines, and other British 'auxiliaries' from Shanghai to Hong Kong, and presumably all the way to India had been obliged to turn over their 303 rifles for whatever had been able to be dredged up to replace them... including with locally produced rolling blocks, but also arisakas, and other things... they looked very silly with winchester lever guns, never mind the whole mix "Now, about this contract?"

"We can produce the Cutlery. Its not a problem. I'll need a final plan instruction, frankly this cockamamie volley site foolishness could go a way... but, yeah if they have a deposit I'll start with the shift that comes on after dinner to get ready." Once a final plan was set up, they could set up the tooling, make the jigs, set the line up, and then in a few months be up to full production capacity."

"If Percy gives me the Advance, I'm going to approach Duan about buying out the tooling Liu bought in Connecticut."

"In case something else shows up?"

"I expect that regardless of who wins that Washington will want to jump the queue for orders, I don't know if that means England will need more, but I know we won't see any opportunity for new tooling before the war ends if that happens."
 
Good slice-of-life.All they need is sell as much weapons as they could without hurting themselves,and get rich.
P.S British could end war in 1915 if they were serious about blockade - but,they let germans buy war materials and food through Holland,Denmark and Sweden.Well,for tem goal was always wrecked Europe without any country strong enough to unite it.And it worked from 1756 till 1939.
 
Good slice-of-life.All they need is sell as much weapons as they could without hurting themselves,and get rich.
P.S British could end war in 1915 if they were serious about blockade - but,they let germans buy war materials and food through Holland,Denmark and Sweden.Well,for tem goal was always wrecked Europe without any country strong enough to unite it.And it worked from 1756 till 1939.
That was a combination of both the Admiralty and the Foreign office, "No, no the war is going to be over quickly," "Blockade it ungentlemanly, and more importantly is a boring waste of ships that could be looking for a fight with the German fleet." "it'll be just like the last couple ones and over in eighteen months at most" etc etc, but with that in mind it made sense not to block the neutral countries shipping also Holland had longstanding ties to England besides, and in the Danes case there was this very silly idea that Denmark would abandon neutrality and join us against the Kaiser (the same kingdom that has been trying to avoid giving the germans an excuse for German overlordship for the last thousand years...) but if you thought the war was going to be last a year or two it made sense not to blockade the neutral shipping in europe up until a point, at that point it became fallacious and running on intertia of not wanting to change course, which the british admiralty were especially bad about and would cause trouble going into ww2
 
October 1916
October 1916
"Keep your feet pointed towards the target," He told the man, "The aim has to be natural to shoot from the hip," Allen pulled the ivory handled colt automatic from his belt and tucked it into his side. His eye over the bore, and squeezed the three pound single action trigger twice catching the straw stuffed dummy in the upper chest, a slight adjustment of the angle took the dummy's wide brim hat off, and he holstered the forty five.

There was a flicker of carbide headlights from the model T lumbering forward. Ford's black beast had been given a protective barding of half inch plate, but the real business to it was the tripod mount of a Vickers on the back end. A second model T and the dismounts in the back carried the old but still in common use Rexer in 7mm Mauser.

Cole had lost more than half of his commandos to the August madness. Men from South Africa, and Ireland alike had gone back home to volunteer to fight for King George. More than two score were now dead in Flanders fields, and others missing in seas of French mud.

To that end John Allen wasn't surprised to see new faces in among them. "Keep practicing." He told the lieutenant and moved towards them. "How was England, Cole?" The man's face broke into a wide mischievous grin, and pulled a white feather from his hat. "Do you mean to hunt the most dangerous game?" He asked looking at the feather.

"Little English dollie gave me this," Cole replied. "I asked the lil miss if she knew what this meant in America, told her that if squaw gives a big warrior a feather she's looking for a bit of sport. Her face went bloody red." He laughed, and tucked it away. "England was fine. JP says three companies, a battalion."

"For his gendarmes idea, that a problem for you?"

Cole shrugged, "Bill and I have been kicking the idea around. Just think that maybe its a little small. I don't know if we have to have it just yet, but there going to need some veterans to lead."

"You volunteering?"

This was something of a surprise development, "Look the constabulary had the scouts up above them. I'm not saying we have to copy the USAMPC, or los diabolos tejanos but I don't want the boys without teeth either."

Allen mirrored Cole's previous shrug, "That's fair, do we call it a regiment?" Cole didn't much care what they called it, it didn't matter to him. "Well whatever we call it, or however many men, I'm glad youre back, and we may have some issues turn bloody before too long."

"You're not going to bring up the rifle topic?"

"Have you shot it yet?"

Cole shook his head, "Nope, but I can read, and I really wish people would stop trying to overcomplicate an arm by trying to make it reliable." The Mondragon complaint came about like he expected, "Given the expense its going to be a specialist weapon, and at that level of training required, even if it does fire eight mauser, its too much of an investment to add on to it."

"I figured you'd say something to that effect, but that doesn't change that we should study the rifle, and how it performs."

"We would in a cash sense, be better off with more Madsens," Which they hadn't pursued because the Danes were neutral, and wouldn't sell them a license, which meant they couldn't export them to the Entente because the Danes wouldn't sign off on it. It was a mess. It was part of the reason Lewis's gun was more popular, and made somewhat more economical sense... especially if Lloyd George was serious about arming the ANZAC to British standards.
--
Cole didn't have the necessary skillset to comment on degrees of efficiency of wartime mobilization. Phillips' job anyway. Cole had lead Philippine Scouts in the war, and Phillips had been under Allen in the CoE, but Cole owned a larger share of the stock and thus was higher up the food chain, so to speak, and his vote counted for more when one got down to it.

Hence the necessity of horse trading within the share holding members of the cadre. "Hu Chin-yi"

"I've met," Allen replied, "What's he done now?"

"nothing."

"Nothing?"

"He hasn't done anything to Chen."


"Then I'm failing to see the problem."

Cole shook his head, "No that is the problem, Chen is supposed to be head of the province," A nod of acknowledgement, "Hu is basically ignoring him, and acting as local headmen for his own little swathe down there."

A careful pause, "Do you expect him to do something?"

"I wouldn't be surprised. Look Chen is never around, and if anything kicks off the Ma aren't going to want to wait for Chen to come in from Peking, all I'm saying is even if its minor it has the potential to be a complete mess." Cole reached for the spiced tea in front of him, "I think we need to consider it hard and soft."

"This is about electrification then?"

"And banking, and farming."

That brought them back to the whole issue of reacting to developments, and the issues with that, "Phillips was telling me what he thought of the War Industries Board, and while the consensus is that no one on either side knows what they're supposed to be doing in terms of actually running it... the idea at least seems sound." He paused, "I think we should consider setting up a more planned, get back to a more planned economic system like with the original Shensi line. As for harder, we're already discussing raising more troops, and opening regimental garrisons. I assume you have somewhere in mind?"

Cole obviously did, and they agreed to talk about it more next month leaving Allen to his books and maps, and the reports. Hu had been a potential issue since Yuan had started that whole Emperor business, but hadn't really committed until January once it had looked like the numbers were in... and that was a good thing. Hu wouldn't likely act rashly, wouldn't commit until he was sure it'd pay off... which meant someone had to be supporting him if he thought he could ignore Chen... that or he believed Chen wasn't going to do anything. which made certain amount of sense as well. Chen's declaration of independence for the province hadn't changed anything when it had been made before Christmas the year before.

Though it hadn't been intentional though the whole monarchist republic argument had created a flood of opium into communities as efforts to crack down on it had broken down as those resources were used elsewhere.... that was obvious in neighboring Shanxi where Yan had admitted he was running out of jail cells... and it had to be worse down south.

Allen stared at the map of central China. The Ma Clique to the west, Yan to the north... and Chen spending most of his time in Peking. That meant plenty of small warlords springing up in the counties to make themselves small kings... and having an easy time hopping over the border to honan or szechwan. To the east or south. Yuan dying had been unforeseen... and in the month since, as summer turned to fall and winter coming... there were going to have to be changes in 1917.

He unfolded the eastern portion of the map to show the coast, and the railways leading to the ports they exported out of. From a drawer he placed a series of white polished stones to represent the existing brigade's sub units. Black stones followed on the map to represent the planned units of the future division. Allen tapped his fingers on the desk slowly. The telephone in the outer office rang, and he grimaced as the racket distracted him from the thoughts.

Artillery took longer to construct than machine guns. They were more expensive. That was why the barrel turning and the rest had taken priority over manufacturing of machine guns, which while involving machining and man-hours in excess of a a service rifle were closer than a howitzers by far. The new division would be somewhere between a modern British, and what they had started the war with.

"Sir, its Mr Graves."
--
"What's this?"

"This, these are the documents. I've relayed your concerns to London." The Englishman declared putting the documents down in front, and then habitually smoothing the front of his uniform jacket, "These are the deposits for the rifles, I am told that production of Lewis guns for Imperial troops will be discussed imminently, as well as mortars and and other assorted small arms. There will be other expansions to orders of belts, and shoes, all the rest." he waved it off.

Allen sat down picked up the parcel and started flicking through, "That was fast Percy."

"There is a war on."

"I'll sign this and push it down." He put the papers off to the side, and thought about it. Word had gotten around, even if he hadn't read the paper himself, that regardless of what Wilson though Lloyd George wanted to to go for a knock out punch, and to see offensives, and support of countries like Romania. "I would like some idea Percy of any further orders before they happen Percy. The Russian orders," Rolling Blocks in the 7.62x54 cartridge of the Mosin-Nagant in particular, "Had been paid for in British Pounds," He held up a hand, "And yes, I prefer dollars, but I need to know so I can set the industrial machinery aside to turn out what will be needed."

"Well what would you need to know?"

"Romania has entered the war," A nod, "IF England going to supply them I'd like copies of the technical documents and material sooner rather than later.... and its something we might consider with regards to the Russian situation as well."

"I will take that under advisement, but I was under the impression it was the lack of good spruce that prevented your involvement of the aircraft industry."

Allen nodded, "Its an impairment, and one that will have to be worked around, but the gears, cranks, and other machinery can be produced. And it would be easier for us to ship up to Harbin, than have it sail from England, and a submarine can't torpedo a train."

"I take your point."

By the following monday morning, the sixteenth, most of the Cadre were busy reading about the Philippines rather than the European War. That was of course in no small part because the papers had been bought by the hundred lot to distribute to everyone ahead of the morning meeting. The room almost felt too small now with the hundred present members gathered forty nine chairs on each side of the long massive oak. A handful of aides, Chinese and American were present didn't help, and one man kept the fireplace going.

"Gentlemen, if may leave the matter the Philippines now have senators of their own," Allen began and with a few moments the hundred newspapers were put away. "We have a bandit problem. Shansi, and Shensi both have their own domestic issues, as well as troublemakers coming over from impoverished communities in Henan."

None of which was new, and all knew the real problem was that most central government focus lay in the east and the coastal cities. Any answer to bandit crisis would be locally driven, and mean county and provincial directives, not ordered top down from Peking. Unlike with Bai Lang, now two years dead, these were strictly small time, sometimes just drawn from single villages, with no grander political motives... or at least without any hope of really accomplishing grander political screeds.

"All the more reason we need lawmen. We need ranging companies of men." Bill grunted four down to the right of where Allen sat the table.

"Situation being what it is Bill we need them quickly, my company is largely free." Cole added steering the meeting towards the inevitable conversation of soldiers far earlier than they'd planned to do so. Percy's contract wouldn't have been the first item of the meeting, he'd expected them to talk about the money, and a look at profit margins, but they were here.

From further down that side of the table emerged some comments about the Gansu brigade's anti banditry operations, but that largely went no where. Zhili being for the most part except for the very southern tip was largely free of predation, or at least would be baring some major political landslide event. Some minor sidebar turned to Shandong's condition.

What was to soon become the Gendarmes, and eventually become the core apparatus of still years in the future ministry of the state, would celebrate its birthday the same day the Philippine Senate was born.
--
Notes: Part of this, basically the last half of 1916, is how fast things started to break down, particularly in south China once Yuan was dead (and again, like several other high profile figures there was / is some speculation he was assassinated poisoned) and part of that was that Yuan made a convenient figure to both rally around, to lead china, even if grudgingly (he had international recognition), or to rally against, but also, Yuan was not the only person in 1916, and Tsai O's death and lack of a clear successor really threw Szechwan into a complete clusterfuck to the point that the numbers of armed groups in that province alone just sky high. How fast things disintegrated in the south lead to the era of high warlordism and cerated the situation which would lead into the Anhui and ZHili cliques fighting over who got to be in charge which often over shadows the much more widespread conflicts between much more numerous southern groups inside provinces.
 
Mondragons was overcompicated,better wait for Awtamat fedorowa.Guns - do not made too much,you get plans for whatever you like after 1918 from german,russian and A-H factories.
Poland used in 1920 some light armored cars on Ford T chasis,so you could do the same.

P.S Why irish go fighting for their british occupants ?
 
Mondragons was overcompicated,better wait for Awtamat fedorowa.Guns - do not made too much,you get plans for whatever you like after 1918 from german,russian and A-H factories.
Poland used in 1920 some light armored cars on Ford T chasis,so you could do the same.

P.S Why irish go fighting for their british occupants ?
Oh they're not building mondragons they bought the order Mexico cancelled before the war (they're the guns they bought from Sig in 1913 in the first story)

As for the Irish, and South Africans for that matter, because historically they did, both the Royalists and the Republican Irish volunteered in 1914 and 15 for the British Army (to the great surprise of the English, the English actually seriously concerned not allowing the Irish to serve before they realized just how big ww1 was going to be) and in the Boers case a lot of the veterans of the war in south africa against the transvaal and orange free states joined up and distinguished themselves as British officers in ww1. It was only really later in 1915 that Irish volunteers dried up, and then you had the easter rising in 1916 which had the British just ignored it would have fizzled out rather than come with a giant hammer (literally bringing in artillery) that cemented the British position not to draft Irishmen into the army.

August Madness is a hell of a drug.
 
Oh they're not building mondragons they bought the order Mexico cancelled before the war (they're the guns they bought from Sig in 1913 in the first story)

As for the Irish, and South Africans for that matter, because historically they did, both the Royalists and the Republican Irish volunteered in 1914 and 15 for the British Army (to the great surprise of the English, the English actually seriously concerned not allowing the Irish to serve before they realized just how big ww1 was going to be) and in the Boers case a lot of the veterans of the war in south africa against the transvaal and orange free states joined up and distinguished themselves as British officers in ww1. It was only really later in 1915 that Irish volunteers dried up, and then you had the easter rising in 1916 which had the British just ignored it would have fizzled out rather than come with a giant hammer (literally bringing in artillery) that cemented the British position not to draft Irishmen into the army.

August Madness is a hell of a drug.

So,it was not irish and boers,but british occupants living there and cosplaing as irish and south-africans.Good to knew.
 
So,it was not irish and boers,but british occupants living there and cosplaing as irish and south-africans.Good to knew.
No, very much you had Irish and Boers who had previously fought against British rule, in some cases militarily, who enlisted or were commissionedin history, Jan Smuts of commando fame comes to mind in South Africa

In Ireland's case, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_and_World_War_I#Prelude_to_the_Great_War this is a decent summary, and as that one does note, support declined as the war went on, and then you got the eastern rising. And of course during this period modern Irish national identity didn't exist, it was still formative. What we really think of modern ireland as a social identity today is really a post war national identity impacted by the war, and by the Easter Rising of 1916
 
  • Like
Reactions: ATP
No, very much you had Irish and Boers who had previously fought against British rule, in some cases militarily, who enlisted or were commissionedin history, Jan Smuts of commando fame comes to mind in South Africa

In Ireland's case, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_and_World_War_I#Prelude_to_the_Great_War this is a decent summary, and as that one does note, support declined as the war went on, and then you got the eastern rising. And of course during this period modern Irish national identity didn't exist, it was still formative. What we really think of modern ireland as a social identity today is really a post war national identity impacted by the war, and by the Easter Rising of 1916

modern nationality is fresh thing - peasants in russia ,or workers in england in 19th century,certainly lacked it,too.And,when it is true that irish from 1916 was not modern,they still considered themselves irish,and have longer traditions then british.
 
modern nationality is fresh thing - peasants in russia ,or workers in england in 19th century,certainly lacked it,too.And,when it is true that irish from 1916 was not modern,they still considered themselves irish,and have longer traditions then british.
Modern nationalism is a very recent development, my point was more while 'Irish' as an identity existed, 'modern irish' is modern. (In the Napoleonic wars, something like a third of 'British' Army was Irish, and in early modern and pre modern times Irish was broken down to, Pale, meath, or even relatively modern (the late 1800s), you were still tallying off who's from what county, where as you don't see that as much socially in the aftermath of war, it really finally stops being a major cultural identifier in the sixties and seventies with the exception, of i.e. Dubliners or Ulster (which historically as a kingdom has always been kind of an odd duck in Irish history)
 
Modern nationalism is a very recent development, my point was more while 'Irish' as an identity existed, 'modern irish' is modern. (In the Napoleonic wars, something like a third of 'British' Army was Irish, and in early modern and pre modern times Irish was broken down to, Pale, meath, or even relatively modern (the late 1800s), you were still tallying off who's from what county, where as you don't see that as much socially in the aftermath of war, it really finally stops being a major cultural identifier in the sixties and seventies with the exception, of i.e. Dubliners or Ulster (which historically as a kingdom has always been kind of an odd duck in Irish history)

Well,in Poland gentry consider themselves as poles from 13th century,townspeople from 16th century,but peasants - aonly after 1863.So,it is normal,that other nations are fresh,too.
P.SUlster - some old irish hero lived there,right?
 
Well,in Poland gentry consider themselves as poles from 13th century,townspeople from 16th century,but peasants - aonly after 1863.So,it is normal,that other nations are fresh,too.
P.SUlster - some old irish hero lived there,right?
Niall (of the nine hostages epithet) founded the ui Niall dynasty which was the clan that held the largely ceremonial high kingship (in the ninth century, and lasting until the normans came in) over ireland's petty kingdoms (the various uiNiall dynastslargely ruled out of Ulster, and Niall's ascension may have been the cause of the break down in the historical kingdom of ulster in late antiquity).... then there is the more mythological Ulster cycle and features Cuchulain and a lot of other mythical or semi mythical heroes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ATP
October 1916
October 1916
The school building was two years old, four storeys high, and lit by electric lights. It needed them. Xian General Public School provided education to elementary students, all the way through to adults. It was open all hours of the day and never locked its doors. It was larger than any of the schools they had built previously, and it still wasn't big enough.

They had built the first school, of theirs, before the Qing had toppled. It was necessary. They needed men who could read, and operate a telegraph machine, and phones for that matter. It hadn't been considered seriously in 1909 to hire women for that sort of thing not until they were sure the north line would be up and running.

"Are these intake numbers accurate?"

"Yeah." Cole grunted as a bell rang. The tone suggested that something had worked its way into his craw, and that whatever was would probably come out sooner rather than later.

John Allen paused for a moment. China had at times it seemed hundreds of ethnic groups, which made the five races banner a bit hard to parse down but on the other hand five races probably made more sense to the Chinese down in Canton. "That would make a fifth of the incoming Hui," who admittedly alongside Manchu always been overrepresented by population, but never to that degree.

"its local recruiting. Xian has more Hui than it does Manchu," For reasons they weren't going to talk about, which coupled with Xian's larger population, and the shifts after Bai Lang's death did go a long way to explaining it. "That's, overall though, its even more pronounced in Class A recruits, even when factoring for education." He waved around, "This place has been slammed full since it opened." The reiteration wasn't necessary.

While Mandarin was dominant across north china it was not universal, and perhaps two in ten people could read in the country.... which somewhat undermined the benefit of the written word being the same regardless of spoken. Written Chinese Characters were a nightmare to learn, there had been reformers even in the Manchu court calling for a simplified version. The process of working out a simplified standard in 1909 on the recommendations that language should use vernacular characters... which in a purely technical learning sense had continued to today... but the Xinhai revolt, and even before that the running of business with complex bookkeeping and technical components had required english. "There is almost an entire generation of West Zhili kids who will be basically bilingual." Not here in Shensi, but Shijiazhuang where they had built the original headquarters of the development corporation. "Alright, then we start accepting accepting muslim chaplains. Or at least start looking for some, did the scouts-"

Cole cut him off with a bark of sharp, harsh, laughter, "Are you kidding? The yankees barely consider catholics to be christian, I had more than one boston brahmin tell me that we were in the 'Philippines as god's apostles, to bring christ to the papists'."

"I take your point, it still needs to be done." Cole gave him a look, "I can ask old man Ma, but you just admitted that somewhere," He paused, "An entire battalion worth of muslims will be coming into infantry training. That's not counting that they'll likely mustang officers, or that they'll certainly have NCOs in a few years, For that matter that doesn't touch specialist troops that graduate out from the infantry."

"I hear you Brother John, but that's not the only issue we've got."

Ah, here it came then, "What's that then?"

"Percy has been poking around. He's not sneaking, but," Cole gave an exasperated huff. "He looks like a goddamned fool. He wears that uniform everywhere, what does he even do in King George's army?"

There wasn't an answer for that, Percy shipping off for Switzerland in early 1915 had been ... odd, and his return hadn't brought any answers, other than his trips abroad had included stays in the states as well. "Well what's he been doing?"

"He's just skulking around. Had the temerity to complain that the men don't port arms, and sharply now on the parade deck, this and that."

"This and that?"

"He says we give 'em too much free time." He kicked the desk, "If I have to hear idle hands or the devil,"

Allen shrugged, "I get the picture, well he's English. There isn't any helping it."

"Its not at all that he's just english," Cole groused, apparently having decided to vent, "I know for a fact none of 'em roam around town, which is a sight better than the Royal Marines Scabs has to fish out of Shanghai's bordellos and bars."

There were a hundred cadre members fifteen hundred Class A, and two thousand Class B volunteers at the time of Bai Lang's death south of Taiyuan. Thirty five hundred Chinese Riflemen with largely modern weapons, then the red legs, the labor auxillary and some other support... but most of the numbers had been in the rifle weight. "Let me take a guess, he doesn't like the fact that for three years we've eaten with the men," The enlisted.

"Well... He blames that on us being American, but certainly it raises 'questions of station'." He tried imitating Percy's voice, and posh accent.
--
Percy flinched at the Company's fusillade of rifle fire from the line, "Are you expecting trouble, seems an awful lot of effort to go through this morning." He declared.

It was a fairly chilly day, dry, bright and windy. Not precisely the best shooting weather, but at least it wasn't raining. Cole scoffed, "I was going to take the company for a run up the hill, and back."

"Carry on," Allen responded, and Cole returned to barking orders to the Regulars. "To answer the question, with Tsai O having left Taiwan for Japan things are starting to come apart to the south, and there are other issues."

"Hsu Hsin-feng?" Percy asked, "Surely his bandits," Since the revolutionaries were currently out of favor they were bandits, "can't be as bad as Bai Lang."

"Its a similar problem though. Hsu has the same problem as everyone else, of bandits coming over from Honan so he doesn't see any issue with going over the border to bushwhack them back." Which of course just stirred up blood feuds... Frankly the Shansi boys weren't likely weren't going to be all that discerning about which Honan lot they shot up, or whose barn they torched. "Its just going to get worse."

"I see." He paused, "John Jordan wishes to lay blame on the Japanese. He's made that quite clear to London."

"John Jordan sees Japan at every turn, Percy. Szechwan, Shansi, the bandits out in Gansu, they don't have anything to do with Satsuma or Choshu. I'm not saying there aren't cases, up north or down south where Japan isn't stirring the pot, but there are plenty of little fights that are being fought here for wholly local grudges."

"Do you think they'll stay little fights then?"

"I don't think any of them will get as far flung as with Bai Lang, but when Yuan signed off on the railway administration in Zhengzhou that meant I needed to contend with what Honan locals think..." He stuffed his hands in his pockets, "I'll probably go to the office out there, its not nearly as big as our Xian holdings, but the city is run separate from the province."

"Siems-Carey. The dykes and the canal?"

"The dykes are at least going to have to be rebuilt, its a flood hazard. I won't build north of Zhili, but next year something will have to be done. If the French the Belgians don't like it," he trailed off, "Your European war is going to bankrupt all of you." Allen muttered. "The canal is inefficient compared to a good rail line, there is a reason we replaced the canals with railways, but the river is prone to breaching its banks." ... and of course as the wind blew there was winter as well to consider.

"1917 is going to be a busy year." Percy clicked his mouth shut as a line of men stampeded out in PT gear coming from the school, and then had to shut his mouth a second time as Cole's company came the opposite direction in uniform and with canteens for their ruck. "There, there is not so much was, been a revolt in Russia. You mentioned that we'd been buying wheat. The tartars facing the wheat shortage started a riot in Tashkent July ish, we're not sure if it started in June... but the harvest was bad. Not enough seed, not enough draft animals. His Majesty's government recognizes we have to keep the Russians in the war... and the Tsar's government is organizing offensives against the germans but they can't sustain them without food."

Allen nodded, even if he suspected that Percy was only telling him part of the story. There was probably more to it going on, but that would be something to ask elsewhere. It probably explained percy's sudden discomfort with the Mohamedens here... though Turkeys part in the war, and the Caliph's fatwa calling for a Jihad against England might well have done that. "I see."

"No its... quite worse, I'm afraid. Kuropatkin was sent out there from the German front." He sucked his lip into a thin line, "Did you see much of the Cossacks in 1904?" The Englishman shook his head, "Well Kuropatkin is bringing them in to quell the revolt... assuming that they haven't already arrived." Ivanov had in fact already arrived in Turkestan, and with Kuropatkin's tacit approval committed to a series of retaliatory actions, that would harshen over the winter months driving hundreds of thousands across the steppe into China... but that would be a problem for later months.
--
Notes: This the following Friday from the previous segment, or roughly a week before the Australian plebiscite on the Draft, which was non binding, and caused a lot of grief politically in Australia and the Empire, and to a lesser extent knock on effects.
 
November 1916
November 1916
He'd spent barely a day in Zhengzhou really before things had called him into Zhili... or at least the first telephone call had. One, had turned into a flurry. November was looking to be the sort of set of weeks were too much happened to keep on top of. John Jordan had departed leaving Alston to helm things. A job Mister Alston was far from prepared for in the best of circumstances never mind now. Percy had gone apoplectic at the vote return from Australia, and it was clear that the acting minister had no clue what he was supposed to be doing in the face of a dominion saying they didn't want the draft. It had proven best to avoid the whole legation, and truthfully there were more important things to do. Tsai O had made it to Japan. "So it is tuberculosis?" He already knew the answer but the Japanese officer, a skinny man with glasses, nodded.

"It will kill him. The doctors believe than can ease it, but he won't survive the year." Nakamichi Taro remarked somberly, reached for the warm tea and sipped, "Sun Yat-Sen departed Tokyo when he heard the news of Tsai's arrival and is making his way there," He stirred another spoonful of good cuban sugar into the darjeeling. "that is if he hasn't already arrived."

He nodded leaned back in the chair stretching his legs, "What does Akashi think about it?" It seemed a little odd.

"The general expects that Sun is ignorant of Tsai's prognosis, the visit, an attempt to 'please support' or even pledge loyalty to the revolutionaries." Which wouldn't mean much, Tsai's absence from Szechwan was enough for his hold in the province to start fracturing, there was no way to know if that was going to be true in Yunnan as well, or how long things would stick together. "That's the news."

He nodded and sipped his own tea as they sat in the private smoking room overlooking the street, "I had some other questions," He'd been a little surprised to find the invitation to tea.

"You should visit, come back to Fukuoka." Whenever he could hope to find the time, then a pause, and Nakamichi was clearly weighing whether to ask a question he didn't know the answer of, and processing his comment, "Your concerns were not about the doctor's travel?"

"No," He shook his head, "This was, I was going to ask Akashi regarding hydroelectric dam construction," And the Germans were on the wrong side of the damn war in Europe, well Akashi had always expressed an interest in water power, he loved the Swiss. "I needed a second set of eyes especially given unique secondary concerns."

The meeting continued until a little after two, and the outlined hydroelectric proposal documents were promised to be sent over with Nakamichi before he left to return to Japan. Bill pushed off the wall from where he was standing by the bar, "That went well I take it."

Allen blew out a breath, "The situation in turkestan is not good," He replied, "Percy's talent for understatement has reached new heights. Anyway, Sun may not know Tsai O is dying, Akashi thinks he's going to the hospital to try and get Tsai to pledge support for one more failed rebellion down south."

[IF] "Tsai O passes," Bill hedged as they filed out of the hotel to the waiting car, "What do we think?"

"He doesn't have a clear successor but Tang will get the lion's share of it," Tsai's army, weapons, so forth... whether he'd get the treasury well there was the real question, "he's been there the longest, and has ties to Sun." So the doctor... might... but it wasn't a sure thing.

"And?"

"And he may or may not have, had, ties to Bai Lang. He was in the school papers Akashi sent back in 1913, and frankly I was never comfortable with that wing that ran all the way south." Which admittedly that could still have been nothing. There had been nothing back then they could do, "We will just have to watch and see what happens," There was nothing else they could do until something happened, "In the mean time this business in Kirghiz is spilling over into Xinjiang, if the Ma clique hasn't said anything yet they will be soon. The line to urumqi needs the stock back ended, and see if we can't go from there."

"Says a lot about old Ma," Bill muttered as they puttered along down the street. "Him shipping the taxes in though."

Allen gave a low whistle of acknowledgement to the statement, "Jordan left a note saying that without Yuan Shikai that the peking government would be lucky to see so much as farthing from most provinces south of the river." The Yangtze.

"Which is like, a thousand to a pound."

"I think so," He replied with a shrug.
--
Shensi wasn't a particularly large province by Chinese standards. It had about the same population as New York State, and Xian had about the same number of people as New York City. About two million in the city and roughly ten million in the province over all. So by American standards it was a lot of people, he supposed, given that it was equivalent in population to ten percent of the States' total population.

As a general rule of thumb while southern part of the province could support rice agriculture, and they had purchased up farms that grew rice, their agriculture investments tended towards production of wheat, or millet, or grazing land for cattle. They had more experience, so it had been a fairly easy choice to make at the time... and there were iron resources to fuel xian's steel manufacturing ...then Yuan had started making Emperor noises.

Hu, and Chen's more recent tiff shouldn't have involved them... and it still might not, but the facts of geography justified this all the same, if not more so. Szechwan was right across the border, and it was among the most populous provinces in China... and the distinction of probably being most lawless. Szechwan had a population comparable to Austria Hungary, it was without strong central leadership... a world of bandits. A population that, John Jordan was probably right on, not going to be sending taxes to Peking for much longer. A thousand men strong the uniformed labor corp auxiliary worked alongside normal employees as the fortified rail depot took shape as the core of what would be of the Bashan Volunteers Regimental Garrison. It was to support enough barracks for nearly five thousand men and officers.

How well Hu would take that would probably depend on how long it took for the first real conflict in Szechwan to spill over the border... which wasn't likely to be long at all if Tsai O was dying in a hospital in Japan.

The truth was that the garrison here would more likely be two thousand Class B volunteers currently waiting to enter the Infantry school, but they'd be issued modern mausers at training... which was an improvement from two years ago. Up the rail and to the east ways at Zhengzhou in the neighboring province a permanent garrison for another two thousand Class B volunteers was being erected. Anchoring either end would be the Class A troops at Xian and at Shijziahuang. That left an eye towards southern Shansi, the province north of Shensi... but they were due to talk with Yan Xishan.... and truth be told it was quite obvious that there would be further recruitment next year. Whether that would follow this model add another 'class A and Class B' to the lists that would be tied up in discussion.... and some of it would depend on not just the situations in Szechwan, but also what happened in Europe.

More than John Allen realized... but 1917 was still more than a month away. Today was one of direction, and looking over the progress, but only because they were still quibbling back and forth whether a triangle division was truly the best course. That had been a last minute quibble from the parts of the cadre who supported going to a division but wanted to retain a brigade level each with two regiments underneath... the probable crisis in Szechwan was a fig leaf of an excuse.

He pulled his sleeve back to look at his wristwatch, "Call them in, that looks line rain, and its about time for lunch anyway." He ordered the major beside him. Twelve minutes minutes later he heard the mine whistle at Dashan in the distance signaling the lunch break for the iron mine, and a little before the half hour the drops of rain started. At least it was rain and not snow. "Where is Hu now?"

"In a village, just a couple miles down the road."

"The road?"

"Its not on the rail line." The major clarified.

That was interesting, "How far is it from the rail?"

"Not fifty miles." The major replied with a flat shark like expression.

Allen blew a breath out, and looked out at the mountains, the traditional Chinese wisdom suggested they were ideal place for bandit hideaways... the question whether they were Hu's, or forward positions for scouts from some band in Szechwan. "Right, and we're sure he's going over the border."

"We do not know for sure he is engaging in banditry," Was the grudging admission, "but he has crossed the border several times already." Which admittedly could have been entirely benign... but he could also be agitating for support against Chen. There was an old saying that a loser was a bandit, a winner a prince. "We have heard that he has met with Zhong Qing though."

Allen glanced sideways, "Yeah, that's news." He pointed at the development.

"Yes sir."

"What is green eyes up to?" Referring to Qing, "He's been down south," Since... this time of year 1913, he had never come back north having by most accounts been leading one of the Jia in Bai's southern force. "Did he throw in with Tsai O?"

"He has a band of followers, and they were handing out leaflets."

Allen looked back to the mountains, it wasn't surprising. Zhang Qing was as his nickname implied a half breed... no one was quite sure who his father had been but he was tall and white, green eyes, but he'd grown up in Henan and was loved there as much as Bai Lang was. They had joined up and defected together and it wasn't a surprise if he was handing out the same leaflets as Bai Lang had put out... given the havoc Bai Lang had wrecked in Shensi that probably wouldn't do him a lot of favors. It might even be enough to start a fight if he came over and tried to give some kind of rally in front of the wrong crowd.

"Get me one of the leaflets major. I want to know what he's saying," He paused, "And find out how close he is with Yang, if Tsai O dies I want to know who's in the succession." There were other errands he could have sent him on, but knowing who all might end up in a position for running off with a band of armed men was probably the most important.
--
Notes: There are actually a number of scenes sitting in the scrap folder, some of them are there because this story opens in August of 1916, and those scraps take place before that. There are some other slice of life stuff that just ends up on the cutting room floor, and some stuff just got pushed back. Much of the military industrial development of 1916 directly sets up for the events of 1917 and the eventual establish of central/northern Chinese state in the interior (within a decade Xian is the capital governing 10 provinces in the interior stretching all the way to Xinjiang and Tibet in the west) and part of the military development are the lessons of world war 1 and modernized warfare with higher degrees of specialization filtered through the British.
 
November 1916
Smoke crawled the hillside, three inch guns sheltered behind it dropping plunging fire across the other side nearly five miles. A Platoon of gray backs were divided in half forming a shallow delta along the hill dug into firing positions preventing charging the hill by centering a maxim-nordenfelt one pounder in the middle where the elevation of the hill let it over look the surrounding approaches.

Backed off and on a second hill a second platoon formed a similar formation shielding the Company Headquarters and their field telephones and glass. Allen shook his head, "They're bunching up," He muttered, stupid bastards, was left unsaid but his tone conveyed it. A man in a gray uniform blood stripes down his pants legs and a lieutenant's bars started gauging the course adjustments to the guns.

They were killing peasants. Bandits, yes, but peasants.

These men had never been in the Beiyang army. They showed little indication of German, or Japanese style drill even though some had old eighty eights.

The Szechwanese had come over the border two days earlier to rob from Shensi farms, had stumbled over a patrol found themselves on the business end of more modern Mausers and fallen back in disarray. That should have been it. Instead of running back with their tails tucked they had tried to attack the same patrol from back and front, but cavalry didn't do so well against infantry in square and with fixed bayonets and magazine fed rifles.

That was the less you had to trust some initiative to junior officers, and you had to trust a sergeant to give good advice. Almost important would be what followed after. Reaffirming good decisions and addressing mistakes so that they were understood. These bandits would never get that. The commands to adjust fire in the lay followed through the phone. A whoosh through the air, and a round exploded bursting into an explosive hail of red metal above men churning the earth into a mass of dirt and obscuring sight.

If that hadn't burst directly over them, it would have been close enough. "We have movement, over there." There was no telling if these ones had a bandit hideout up the mountain, but somebody did. "Do we adjust the guns?"

"No," He replied swinging his field glasses to the Dashan range, and searching the trees for movement, "We're done for today." The return march back took a couple hours, which meant it was well after dark and was hovering around freezing slight flurries starting to come in from the west. He doubted the snow would stick. He ordered the men to be put to bed in the barracks and hot coffee passed to the men on watch and spent most of the evening with his books. The writing though from this was on the wall assuming that this wasn't nothing. Szechwan went to pieces then they were going to need more men than they had, or were planning for.

Truthfully he didn't sleep much though, changing socks, and throwing pair of fine wool of the day into a laundry bag before settling into the books. The mess hall was functional indistinguishable from any of the other permanent messes. It looked no different than those used to feed breakfast, lunch and dinner to factory hands, but then again how unique could you even make a communal mess hall. The central steel skeleton was designed to be put together quickly, and without much specialist labor... you didn't need carpenters to handle joinery or the like to throw it up, and put a roof on, and while it might not have been the sort of building to win any awards for beauty it was functional... and warm. For whatever lack of homey aesthetics the mess's functionality did or didn't have, that functionality provided a shelter from the elements and food.

In February it would be five years since the Qing Dynasty had dissolved.
--
The practical organization of anything over a hundred men or so in business or the military boiled down hierarchy. You needed officers, and ncos, and no you couldn't just keep it the family when it came to foremen and managers... and you need specialization. Staff and line men, even if those terms tended to get reversed in meaning in the states depending on which one you meant.

"Could we do something?" Captain Deng asked.

There really wasn't much they could do. "Geography favors irregulars in this terrain." At least anyone trying to attack the farms. In theory there was a defensive advantage in telephone and telegraph, but smarter bandits than these had demonstrated enough planning ability to know to cut those ahead of any major raid. While that still let the defenders know something was up, it didn't tell them. "We're too far south for a protracted conflict," The entire reason for going to a battalion here was because of how much butchery was being done to horse soldiers charging machine gun and berbered wire in the European war... that and they didn't have the horse population to sustain that... not on top of a division's existing needs. There Manchu who owned horses who might volunteer, but the committee meeting had returned against it. "Chin can't be relied upon to do anything, and if we were to ask he'd use it as an excuse to raise a fuss." Chin's motives were too up in the air, he probably wanted to be head of the province, but if that were the case... then there almost certainly would be trouble between him and the Mas... and that would more trouble with Cao Kun, and that would dragoon Peking into it, which would probably stir the south up. Maybe, and maybe that angle would be a whole lot of nothing, but then there was this one. "We cannot keep a present battalion here." He gestured to the depot on the map, "Next year, when its finished sure. Not over this winter," and pushed the telegram from Akashi away... "And while we know already, word of Tsai's death,"

"Will spread rapidly."

The telegram had been in code, of sorts. Akashi had sent a poem, a haiku that announced Tsai O's death in the sanatorium mixed in with minor other news. "We need to wait and see who inherits the bulk of the army and then see what they do with the others, and then deal with it." China being China there was going to be bandits in Kansu, and bandits coming over the shantung border, and Honan and Hunan and all around the river down to Shanghai.

It was a lot, significantly easier to defend a mine, or a factor than a farm. It was bad luck of course that they were talking winter wheat and cattle pastures... but it wasn't as if any of the tobacco farmers had it any easier, or millet, or corn would in later months. Farms covered too large an area, and were too inclined to creating breaks in the line of sight to make anything but a constant presence a sure thing in detecting an enemy... and that wasn't practical.

The phone rang, the operator asked him to hold, and connected to a line that ran to one of their offices in Xian, "The vote is in." The Elder Forrest's voice remarked matter of factly, the tone not betraying it's results. He didn't ask, and after a minute. "Wilson has won a second term of office as President of the United States."

"How close was it?"

"Close." was the terse reply. "Cox has conceded."
--
It took him another week to finally board a train, and make the trip back to the provincial capital. A few days after that the biggest news to make its way over the wire was Haig calling the Somme to a halt. Preliminary reports estimated perhaps a million wounded according to a cable from Geneva, and if the rumors from Downing Street were to be believed the battle had been allowed to go on because Haig had been too foolhardy to call it off sooner, and no one had stopped him.

... which of course was going to impact the president's policies. Wilson saw the European War and a need to make a personal plea for peace. A plea that the entente had no interest in him making and one that wasn't welcome, probably doubly so given how costly the Somme had just proven for what little had been gained.

Faced with those casualties, faced with Australia's admittedly non binding vote against the draft well there were things that had to be sorted out. The new year was fast approaching. They had a month and a half to finish the year and in those couple weeks then it'd be 1917.

"Figured you be at Glory,"

Allen adjusted his grip on the rifle, glancing briefly to the still fancy print roll mark on the receiver proclaiming it the 'Gewehr 98' that typified their production of the receiver, even though arsenal production had been increasingly shifting from the German Army standard of the license they had purchased from Paul... almost a decade earlier now. The German label was supplemented by English language roll mark, a serial number, and finally the Chinese characters of the factory name. "Later he replied, its only three," He replied, and the hotel was a short drive by car, or trolley, or train, it was one of the most modern buildings in town, "There was some shooting down south."

Griswold nodded and sat down beside one of the warm gray display walls. "I'd heard Bushwhackers from over the border, so?"

"What are you doing for Stokes's mortars?" He paused, "The three inchers work well, they can be unlimbered and transported by infantry," or better still by horse, which could also tow, and of course a tractor could tow them faster still, "you said stokes mortar out of expediency resulted in its short range."

Griswold nodded, "Mortars are nothing new, Stokes's innovation is its cheap and particularly nimble. The tube itself, it could be rifled, it could be bored out more, and you could adjust the plate, the ammunition it fires. Fin shape, charge," He waved on, "You'll never see it throw something with proper artillery range, but the range can be improved with better ammunition, or lengthening the tube."

"We're going to hit a point where there isn't an ability to move red legs to each company. We can do it now, but once we shift to a division, each company will need a platoon of specialists, at least one." If not two, one allocated to each pair of Rifle Platoons.

Griswold scuffed his boot at the yellow tiling and looked up as he considered it. "Well," He hmmed, "how's first dealing with the mortars we have?" He meant first battalion "They have the most experience, even if it is largely at throwing 'em at straw dummies." He tapped his foot, "Ordinance would convene a board back home, I guess that's what we need to do." A pause, and a sideways glance, "Preferably without any of their tomfoolery."
--
Notes: and even though this takes place really in the first half of November 1916 its in the outline terms of this story the kind of marker, or point where things change. To overview some other political shifts, the Russians would change Prime Minister during this period, you have the death of Tsai O in Japan, and the Somme ending, which are both directly mentioned, you had the rejection of conscription (in a non binding vote by the Australian public), which then lead to the split of Australian Labor, and now here Wilson has won reelection and the cavalcade of follow on events that lead into what will be well the ton of bricks that all come down in 1917's first few months.

... and in terms of timeline really its the political decisions of this month in 1916 that really are the pebbles before the avalanche of the coming year and shape what will be the years of high warlordism in China, as among other things John Jordan long time ambassador to China chose to leave and gets to miss all of this and has to be asked back by Balfour of the soon to be incoming UK Government. I personally suspect that Jordan leaving in 1916 and then coming back shaped his 1919 May Arms embargo attempt which played a role in the high warlord years... but we will deal with that later.


Second Aside: I attempt to keep this particularly with late 19th early 20th century language and phrasing where possible, and avoid modernisms. The kettlebell originated in eastern europe as a weight to measure, wheat (or grain crops) and became popular in the 19th century with circus strongmen, and by this point in the timeline were in use with YCMA and other western atheltic associations. Even if that had not started, East Asia already had a similar weight in both China, and Japan used in martial arts so in the event any of those physical fitness shows up this is not actually a modern-ism.
 
November 1916
Smoke crawled the hillside, three inch guns sheltered behind it dropping plunging fire across the other side nearly five miles. A Platoon of gray backs were divided in half forming a shallow delta along the hill dug into firing positions preventing charging the hill by centering a maxim-nordenfelt one pounder in the middle where the elevation of the hill let it over look the surrounding approaches.

Backed off and on a second hill a second platoon formed a similar formation shielding the Company Headquarters and their field telephones and glass. Allen shook his head, "They're bunching up," He muttered, stupid bastards, was left unsaid but his tone conveyed it. A man in a gray uniform blood stripes down his pants legs and a lieutenant's bars started gauging the course adjustments to the guns.

They were killing peasants. Bandits, yes, but peasants.

These men had never been in the Beiyang army. They showed little indication of German, or Japanese style drill even though some had old eighty eights.

The Szechwanese had come over the border two days earlier to rob from Shensi farms, had stumbled over a patrol found themselves on the business end of more modern Mausers and fallen back in disarray. That should have been it. Instead of running back with their tails tucked they had tried to attack the same patrol from back and front, but cavalry didn't do so well against infantry in square and with fixed bayonets and magazine fed rifles.

That was the less you had to trust some initiative to junior officers, and you had to trust a sergeant to give good advice. Almost important would be what followed after. Reaffirming good decisions and addressing mistakes so that they were understood. These bandits would never get that. The commands to adjust fire in the lay followed through the phone. A whoosh through the air, and a round exploded bursting into an explosive hail of red metal above men churning the earth into a mass of dirt and obscuring sight.

If that hadn't burst directly over them, it would have been close enough. "We have movement, over there." There was no telling if these ones had a bandit hideout up the mountain, but somebody did. "Do we adjust the guns?"

"No," He replied swinging his field glasses to the Dashan range, and searching the trees for movement, "We're done for today." The return march back took a couple hours, which meant it was well after dark and was hovering around freezing slight flurries starting to come in from the west. He doubted the snow would stick. He ordered the men to be put to bed in the barracks and hot coffee passed to the men on watch and spent most of the evening with his books. The writing though from this was on the wall assuming that this wasn't nothing. Szechwan went to pieces then they were going to need more men than they had, or were planning for.

Truthfully he didn't sleep much though, changing socks, and throwing pair of fine wool of the day into a laundry bag before settling into the books. The mess hall was functional indistinguishable from any of the other permanent messes. It looked no different than those used to feed breakfast, lunch and dinner to factory hands, but then again how unique could you even make a communal mess hall. The central steel skeleton was designed to be put together quickly, and without much specialist labor... you didn't need carpenters to handle joinery or the like to throw it up, and put a roof on, and while it might not have been the sort of building to win any awards for beauty it was functional... and warm. For whatever lack of homey aesthetics the mess's functionality did or didn't have, that functionality provided a shelter from the elements and food.

In February it would be five years since the Qing Dynasty had dissolved.
--
The practical organization of anything over a hundred men or so in business or the military boiled down hierarchy. You needed officers, and ncos, and no you couldn't just keep it the family when it came to foremen and managers... and you need specialization. Staff and line men, even if those terms tended to get reversed in meaning in the states depending on which one you meant.

"Could we do something?" Captain Deng asked.

There really wasn't much they could do. "Geography favors irregulars in this terrain." At least anyone trying to attack the farms. In theory there was a defensive advantage in telephone and telegraph, but smarter bandits than these had demonstrated enough planning ability to know to cut those ahead of any major raid. While that still let the defenders know something was up, it didn't tell them. "We're too far south for a protracted conflict," The entire reason for going to a battalion here was because of how much butchery was being done to horse soldiers charging machine gun and berbered wire in the European war... that and they didn't have the horse population to sustain that... not on top of a division's existing needs. There Manchu who owned horses who might volunteer, but the committee meeting had returned against it. "Chin can't be relied upon to do anything, and if we were to ask he'd use it as an excuse to raise a fuss." Chin's motives were too up in the air, he probably wanted to be head of the province, but if that were the case... then there almost certainly would be trouble between him and the Mas... and that would more trouble with Cao Kun, and that would dragoon Peking into it, which would probably stir the south up. Maybe, and maybe that angle would be a whole lot of nothing, but then there was this one. "We cannot keep a present battalion here." He gestured to the depot on the map, "Next year, when its finished sure. Not over this winter," and pushed the telegram from Akashi away... "And while we know already, word of Tsai's death,"

"Will spread rapidly."

The telegram had been in code, of sorts. Akashi had sent a poem, a haiku that announced Tsai O's death in the sanatorium mixed in with minor other news. "We need to wait and see who inherits the bulk of the army and then see what they do with the others, and then deal with it." China being China there was going to be bandits in Kansu, and bandits coming over the shantung border, and Honan and Hunan and all around the river down to Shanghai.

It was a lot, significantly easier to defend a mine, or a factor than a farm. It was bad luck of course that they were talking winter wheat and cattle pastures... but it wasn't as if any of the tobacco farmers had it any easier, or millet, or corn would in later months. Farms covered too large an area, and were too inclined to creating breaks in the line of sight to make anything but a constant presence a sure thing in detecting an enemy... and that wasn't practical.

The phone rang, the operator asked him to hold, and connected to a line that ran to one of their offices in Xian, "The vote is in." The Elder Forrest's voice remarked matter of factly, the tone not betraying it's results. He didn't ask, and after a minute. "Wilson has won a second term of office as President of the United States."

"How close was it?"

"Close." was the terse reply. "Cox has conceded."
--
It took him another week to finally board a train, and make the trip back to the provincial capital. A few days after that the biggest news to make its way over the wire was Haig calling the Somme to a halt. Preliminary reports estimated perhaps a million wounded according to a cable from Geneva, and if the rumors from Downing Street were to be believed the battle had been allowed to go on because Haig had been too foolhardy to call it off sooner, and no one had stopped him.

... which of course was going to impact the president's policies. Wilson saw the European War and a need to make a personal plea for peace. A plea that the entente had no interest in him making and one that wasn't welcome, probably doubly so given how costly the Somme had just proven for what little had been gained.

Faced with those casualties, faced with Australia's admittedly non binding vote against the draft well there were things that had to be sorted out. The new year was fast approaching. They had a month and a half to finish the year and in those couple weeks then it'd be 1917.

"Figured you be at Glory,"

Allen adjusted his grip on the rifle, glancing briefly to the still fancy print roll mark on the receiver proclaiming it the 'Gewehr 98' that typified their production of the receiver, even though arsenal production had been increasingly shifting from the German Army standard of the license they had purchased from Paul... almost a decade earlier now. The German label was supplemented by English language roll mark, a serial number, and finally the Chinese characters of the factory name. "Later he replied, its only three," He replied, and the hotel was a short drive by car, or trolley, or train, it was one of the most modern buildings in town, "There was some shooting down south."

Griswold nodded and sat down beside one of the warm gray display walls. "I'd heard Bushwhackers from over the border, so?"

"What are you doing for Stokes's mortars?" He paused, "The three inchers work well, they can be unlimbered and transported by infantry," or better still by horse, which could also tow, and of course a tractor could tow them faster still, "you said stokes mortar out of expediency resulted in its short range."

Griswold nodded, "Mortars are nothing new, Stokes's innovation is its cheap and particularly nimble. The tube itself, it could be rifled, it could be bored out more, and you could adjust the plate, the ammunition it fires. Fin shape, charge," He waved on, "You'll never see it throw something with proper artillery range, but the range can be improved with better ammunition, or lengthening the tube."

"We're going to hit a point where there isn't an ability to move red legs to each company. We can do it now, but once we shift to a division, each company will need a platoon of specialists, at least one." If not two, one allocated to each pair of Rifle Platoons.

Griswold scuffed his boot at the yellow tiling and looked up as he considered it. "Well," He hmmed, "how's first dealing with the mortars we have?" He meant first battalion "They have the most experience, even if it is largely at throwing 'em at straw dummies." He tapped his foot, "Ordinance would convene a board back home, I guess that's what we need to do." A pause, and a sideways glance, "Preferably without any of their tomfoolery."
--
Notes: and even though this takes place really in the first half of November 1916 its in the outline terms of this story the kind of marker, or point where things change. To overview some other political shifts, the Russians would change Prime Minister during this period, you have the death of Tsai O in Japan, and the Somme ending, which are both directly mentioned, you had the rejection of conscription (in a non binding vote by the Australian public), which then lead to the split of Australian Labor, and now here Wilson has won reelection and the cavalcade of follow on events that lead into what will be well the ton of bricks that all come down in 1917's first few months.

... and in terms of timeline really its the political decisions of this month in 1916 that really are the pebbles before the avalanche of the coming year and shape what will be the years of high warlordism in China, as among other things John Jordan long time ambassador to China chose to leave and gets to miss all of this and has to be asked back by Balfour of the soon to be incoming UK Government. I personally suspect that Jordan leaving in 1916 and then coming back shaped his 1919 May Arms embargo attempt which played a role in the high warlord years... but we will deal with that later.


Second Aside: I attempt to keep this particularly with late 19th early 20th century language and phrasing where possible, and avoid modernisms. The kettlebell originated in eastern europe as a weight to measure, wheat (or grain crops) and became popular in the 19th century with circus strongmen, and by this point in the timeline were in use with YCMA and other western atheltic associations. Even if that had not started, East Asia already had a similar weight in both China, and Japan used in martial arts so in the event any of those physical fitness shows up this is not actually a modern-ism.


I thought,that bandits there was smarter then try to win battle with military force.Well,those who survive would remember that.
Somma - they new about tanks,but they do not need them yet,and certainly not montrosities made by british.I would say,that all they need are armored cars now,with tanks they could wait till Vickers E was made ,or at least Fiat 3000,all earlier construction was not good.

Working on better ammo for mortats - good,they would replace french in this TL.Why not made 60,120,and 160mm mortars after that,too?

P.S you should replace horses with trucks as fast as good one would be made.One truck last at least 20 years and carry 20 sodiers,to compare - one cavalry horse last 4 years,which mean that one truck replace 100 horses or more.
One of the reason why polish army in 1939 was so obsolate - we do not replaced horses with truck in calvary brigades/well,only in 2/ ,and as a result we do not have money for anything else,becouse horses eat it.
Becouse truck need fuel only when it is used,and horses must be feed and tended entire time.
 
November 1916 [Late November]
November 1916
[Late November]
Shan would make a fine general officer one day, and certainly the quality of his writing the understanding of the necessity of modern logistics, and keeping machine guns fed was a credit to everything of the last few years. Shan's penchant for the military administrative work would hopefully bear out as they prepared to bring new troops into uniform, and expand the force generally.

China was not really a nation of roads. Each province ... sometimes even counties... had roads built solely for one particular purpose, often for a strictly local patron. In an age of strong central government who could have afforded the expense necessary to maintain the canal system then it would have meant less hassle... but no such government existed. The late Qing hadn't had those funds, never mind the funds to expand the canal.

An army on the march though needed to be able to move, and railways were a large investiture of capital. So the proposal that a battalion in the field should have a hundred horses was hardly an unreasonable suggestion if they were to go over land. Horses took time to raise though, and there were still limits to where they could go under pack... and horses were fragile stupid things.

"I appreciate he has the sense to allocate the dumb bastards," the horses, "To my artillery, but he missed the point that Griswold hadn't turned out enough heavy guns for this." Dawes commented, the older man paused to reach for his iced tea, an extravagance afforded to them by Xian's genteel character.

"And it ain't like horses grow on trees." Bill added. "but its a thinking exercise. Contemplative as Colonel Wood called it." All in all though, this was largely a formality, a precautionary one, but even as they moved on to Shang's essay. The fact was everyone was likely to see a raise in grade as the force expanded in size. Not that it'd be practical to raise everyone at once. No they'd start with half or even a third, promote them, and keep the others in so that there was no gap in institutional knowledge. The names were sorted alphabetically in English, and well there would be a couple of Zs to finish them out.

"We are generally agreed to remove the potato diggers next year?" He asked.

Dawes glanced up, and shrugged, "Remove might be a stretch." T'sai O's death was beginning to make the rounds. There had been doubts as to the number of rifles, and quality that Yunnan's 'warlord' had but no one denied that plenty of men had been flocking to him, and the prestige he had gained by standing up to Yuan Shikai... but with him dead there was going to bedlam. One hope was that it'd be a white Christmas and the snow would keep things quiet in the north, but that was doubtful serious snow was rare save perhaps after the first.

There had been talks off and on for years now. The increasing 'Americanized' Gewehr now that they were unlikely to secure a production of the proper german army version to Qing, or now Beiyang government looked to finally be finalizing. The Springfield service rifle had a twenty four inch barrel... and the brits new rifle was in many respects just that rifle, mated to features from the Lee Enfield with the mauser updates.... except still shooting the British dwarf. They were finally talking about drafting a shorter rifle, which would be good because enough of their own officers knew enough to have cottoned on that a shorter universal rifle would be better.

This was the Infantry Officer's Staff College, and this was what it did. IT served mostly as promotion board, and as a body to digest the lessons from the European war, as well as lessons learned closer to home. "There isn't time for it," The rest of the board looked up at Griswold, who had been largely quiet through the evaluation of infantry officers, "We have those Fulton Quads coming, we've got Fords too, we don't have time to do it before the states come jump 'in but the war is gonna end eventually. What if we set capital aside, pay Ford to set us up a factory you know how he feels about that."

"He'd be willing to hear us out." It was clear Bill was thinking about the price.
--
The latest complaints again Chen had appeared that morning with little fanfare to receive them. Unless the plan had been to upset Chen's civil administering deputy... in which case it had been very successful... but that was probably nothing more than a small consolation prize for Hu. Upsetting Li Genyuan, who was basically a benchwarmer... meant little. Insisting Chen was acting like Qing lap dog and wanted to spend more time in the capital than helping Shaanxi for whatever that nebulous phrase entailed meant little in the urban heartland of the province.

"We estimate we will need twelve thousand workers to finish the Gansu," Corridor, "Spur of rail line," Going out to Urumqi, "On the new time table."

"Its too damn big to call a spur now, hell it was too big to call a rail spur when we finished the 'spur' to the Ma capital" That was something of a stretch, Lanzhou to Xian was only three hundred miles of track, which had been less than a month's work to finish what with the autumn weather staying dry like it had, and just good conditions. That the Ma clique was still willing to do that, was grounded in what Hu probably would have called 'nostalgia for the old imperial order'. "Besides it still runs into the lack of rolling stock. We don't have the cars built, and we don't have the engines either." But even that was ultimately a matter of time to allow domestic construction either within Xian's walls, or in one of the factories in western Zhili to produce the stock... but that was prone to delay due to back order, and also repairing existing stock. Unlike Shensi's capital of Taiyuan, Urumqi or Lanzhou lacked in industry, there were no machine bureaus that could repair train engines. Thus if one broke down it would have to be towed a thousand miles east if it wasn't something easy, and that would tie up another locomotive.

Dawes's overall point though was true. There were bottlenecks, and labor was the easiest to overcome. The 'great western line' was designed to make export of goods come west to east. For Yuan Shikai of course he had really only been concerned with the taxes. His concerns there were also linked to geopolitical. At the time avoiding further repeats of embarrassment like the Ili crisis of the 1880s. It would take years to get over the bottleneck and finish the originally grandiose idea of the rail's western terminus at Kashgar... but Yuan had not been the only person or persons interested in the idea. Anglo-American interests from the Foreign office and State respectively saw different utility to, but the line through Xinjiang, and into Central Asia had potential even if the war's sucking of foreign capital made any substantive support difficult, and besides the Trans siberian already did what a rail line into central Asia would do so hardly the most practical solution.

That limited tax base though... well Western China had a population of fifty million.... about ... the Qing had never really gotten around to census that was accurate. There was the potential in the western provinces for so much more. Coal and Iron could very well potentially support significant growth... but if they could prove the viability of Shansi's oil reserves then that would open up the west. There were other opportunities...and if that investment paid off then the expense of the railway would be recouped much much faster.

He gave the older man a moment, "Are you suggesting we delay?"

"I think we should. We could hire the whole crew and the second the snows off the ground run the whole line, but its too damn cold to do it now. Winter is on top of us. We can afford to wait, the new time table isn't a good idea. We should stick with the old one, and try and aim for July, or August even." even on that one they'd still be short rolling stock, but not nearly to the extent of aiming for the line running in the first spring months. "We're already done for the year."

"And?"

"And, we'd have to probably fight bandits." Dawes declared, "Which, yes we probably have to do anyway. Ma Hongkui is going to be busy, because they've stuck him with a thankless fools errand, he don't have the numbers for it. Its like sending black jack down Mexico, its the same mistake. We can't go 'heres a parcel of fellas,' and expect them to get it done."

He hadn't realized Dawes had felt so strongly about it. Strictly speaking much of Dawes's agitation had been towards expansion on the military side to include production of new 150mm howitzers on the implicit basis of lessons learned from the European war. There was a need for quick firing heavy artillery. "Has something been said, has there been an indication?"

"I don't see the point in rushing the line west, not for what good it will do us if we have to contend with any kind of trouble in either Chunking or Wuchang. As happens, Szechwan and Hupeh are too prone to coming over the border to get rowdy and Hongkui could be useful there."

"You just said he didn't have the numbers," But he understood where the older man was going, "But then that would be for search and destroy missions against an enemy he doesn't know where they are."

"Exactly." He paused, "The reality is Hu isn't wrong," He waved towards one of the flyers tossed into the trashbin after it had been read, "Chen would rather spend his time in Peking wining and dining, and however much that might upset Li..." Chen's deputy "the reality is the Ma have just as much pull, got as much skin in local influence as Chen does... and they certainly have more than Hu does."

That was in no small part due to to the Ma clique's structure. Hu fancied himself a revolutionary, and while not incompetent per se, the truth was he was endemic of any of the would be revolutionaries who had tried to fight at the Wuchang forts or any of the other battles of the summer of 1913. Hu could make the speeches he wanted but his small band of loyal men lacked discipline, and most of the wider population didn't really care about matters beyond regional concerns. In much the situation pervasive to the southern rebels the best rifles in common usage were the mauser eighty eights using the old round noses. This was in stark contrast to the Ma cliques long experience much much more modern mausers and a much greater talent for their use in those veterans of the old Wu Wei Corp.

He reached for the glass, and asked if there was anything else.

"Has Cullen mentioned the bagpipes and the uniform yet?"

Allen coughed putting the drink down, "No Cole hasn't mentioned anything about the uniforms." He wasn't even going to touch the bagpipe issue, "Why are you bringing it up?"

"Because its an interesting twixt." Dawes replied, "He's ordered black uniforms, with the intention of updating the old gendarmes uniforms."
--
Notes: Ma Hongkui launched a series of 'anti banditry' raids through allegedly 1923 (So like seven years) across at least four provinces including modern day Gansu, and by raids I mean plundering rivals or retaliating against neighboring provinces for attacks in Shaanxi and Gansu, Ningxia by most accounts... this is really one of the examples of why the period from 1916-1928 are the 'high warlord years'.

As an aside, regarding John Jordan's statement regarding taxes, it would actually take until 1918 for the salt gabble (the government monopoly on Salt) to decline in terms of revenue brought in per year, this was the tax used to pay the interest on China's debts internationally. This coupled with the financial mess of the post war years (world war 1) and then the first major north clique conflict lead to China's default on its loans in 21-22

Speaking of events in the future, the main story... which I'm defining (at present) as basically White Wolf through we will the interwar years. So call it 1913-1928 or 1933... are relatively hard / low magic / pulp fiction. You can basically ignore or hand wave excuse any and all supernatural phenomenon for the most part barring a couple blatant statements of 'this is a thing'. BY WW2 we get into the side stories particularly for / in Destroyermen but after that move increasingly into a GURPS style parachronic timeline setting with side stories, which may necessitate me spinning that off into its own thread. Or not.
 
Remember about taking planes from germans or A-H .You need only two models to produce - light bomber and fighter.Heavy bombers could wait.

You need 2 howitzers and 2 fieldguns models,too - choose from germany,A-H,and Russia.
Why not USA or England? factories in Germany and A-H was closed,and in Russia taken by genociders.Engineers would be cheap there.
 
Remember about taking planes from germans or A-H .You need only two models to produce - light bomber and fighter.Heavy bombers could wait.

You need 2 howitzers and 2 fieldguns models,too - choose from germany,A-H,and Russia.
Why not USA or England? factories in Germany and A-H was closed,and in Russia taken by genociders.Engineers would be cheap there.
STrictly speaking the US only really produced either marginally improved copies of French artillery during this period... at least in terms of land artillery. Naval artillery doesn't really count, the US was thanks to abundant steel manufacturing capacity already looking well ahead at naval guns for both the Coastal Artillery (still a separate institution from field artillery) / fortress defenses and actual naval artillery as we think of it being ship guns. (The US would still use 75mm MLE1897A2 updated with German style trails into ww2 because they worked, also Ordinance looked at the German 105 and went yeah we like that, and that became the US standard howitzer through WW2 in both theaters being described as the work horse of US artillery, and then of course you have the MLE improvements / descendant models of guns, ranging from tanks, and anti tank guns, to anti aircraft.).


The biggest US advantage during this period and after is in Fire Control systems, and range finding as well as in communications field telephone usage. GB up until 1916 was very behind on howitzers and heavy field artillery, and in this was bailed out by their Coastal Artillery (again, separate institution until reforms) who were used to dealing with much heavier guns.
France favored rate of Fire (i.e. the MLe1897/14)
The UK favored weight of shell (i.e. development of the British 60PDR)
Germans/Austrians largely favored maneuverability/accuracy (Krupp guns had a very good reputation for integrated new sights, and trails into older catalog models, and have been the most common manufacturer (which I'm sure the Austrians and Germans were thrilled to find Italian contract, or Serbian contract Krupp field guns shooting at them) in use

Ultimately doctrinally, we will see a move a long US thinking lines, because that fire and maneuver doctrine developed out the Phillipines war experience and that was what drove shaping of US artillery doctrine, so we will see post war local production in heavier calibers 105 and 15cm, the latter which will eventually be bored out to 155 and replaced with those. The three inchers will largely serve that field gun role since as caliber, and a design especially upgraded with a more modern recoil system for rate for (6RPM to 10RPM doesn't sound like a lot, but it really is) will begin with new gun construction 1918 largely as domestic steel export dries up and that rolled steel can be redirected towards local industrial needs which is also why post war there is a rail boom in the west

as for airplanes. Those will start showing up ... basically immediately after Versailles hits, I'd have to double check the outline / timeline notes for when the 'air force' gets founded as a stand alone service, but the Zhili and Anhui and Fengtien all the major northern cliques scrambled for air planes after ww1
 
Last edited:
If you have people running from soviets,then what about russian 122mm Krupp or Schneider howitzers? both were good,maneuverable,and have bigger schell then 105mm.
Also,when you get new ammo to your mortars - what about building infrantry gun using barrel from that? it would be small and easy to transport on battlefield.
 
If you have people running from soviets,then what about russian 122mm Krupp or Schneider howitzers? both were good,maneuverable,and have bigger schell then 105mm.
Also,when you get new ammo to your mortars - what about building infrantry gun using barrel from that? it would be small and easy to transport on battlefield.
The principle reason is that unlike the 1910s the 10.5, (especially postwar with an upgraded trail in the twenties) it has a higher velocity cased charged and more importantly is capable of a sustained rate of fire three to four times that of the Shneider gun, which is the driving doctrinal reason, the practical engineering reason is that the getting the technical data package for the 105 is easier, and it has greater ability to upgrade

So while Schneiders are mentioned as showing up later on, they're as second line artillery guards units in the northern expedition protecting Zhengzhou and positions north of the western Yangtze (basically southern Shaanxi northern Sichuan c.1927)
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top