Rule 3 Addendum - Translations of Others' Works

[Skierus]

I hold great respect for this stance. Good policy! <3

 

[sxeron10]

I read a lot in WebNovel because there's those rare well-written stories that are hidden beneath its massive Chinese translated to English works and dumb power fantasy fics.

So, seeing this rule is quite good in removing dusts from well-hidden gems.

 

[sicksock]

Been a long time coming. Rip to that one guy who would regularly take over half the NSFW frontpage.

 

[The_Lord_Bread]

Been a long time coming. Rip to that one guy who would regularly take over half the NSFW frontpage.

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Justice for Zastra

 

[CaraMyBeloved]

Atleast this does prevent the situation where most stuff just becomes fan translation. I'm looking at you Webnovel.

 

[RagTagSpy]

Aw man, Welp I saw this coming (I didn't even think about it)

 

[joesmith1999]

Anything not republished redundantly ad nauseam is at risk of disappearing. I've certainly been faced with such issues often enough, when trying to find back things I remembered reading or watching in the past.

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"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

Spoiler: "Out of pocket."

I am also by trade a programmer, where I also program proprietary malware for a paycheck.

My contribution to society in my legal employment is almost solely detrimental (and for the profits of a few), and so I somewhat try to compensate in my Free/Libre work (I'd still make Free/Libre Software even without the motivation of compensating for the harm done, I like to make software).

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Also, holy shit. I'm so sorry, but I need you to know that that really does not come close to compensating for harm done. Not to re-enact that 'and yet you participate in society, how interesting' meme, but, HAH.
Go, like, volunteer at a soup kitchen in your local community or something, seriously.

Anyways, the publisher always got super anal about that kinda thing, but I never really cared about fan translations. If some kid wants to poorly translate my book into Russian to make some pocket money, have at it, buck-o. If it was a COMPANY doing it, then yeah, fuck off bitch, I'll see you in court! And by "I," I really mean, "the publisher," who will cut me a check after they get through reaming your lawyers.

Obviously that's a little different, because the publisher owned the rights, so they just went after whoever they thought was worth going after. I highly doubt a relatively niche forum like this one would be worth the hassle, but they'd still probably send the letter and hope you roll over. Of course, whether or not they FIND IT is another matter; mostly it was sort of don't-ask-don't-tell. Again, obviously excepting other companies; and again, well, my contract made no mention of reporting such a thing myself, of course. ;)

"American Capitalism," or whatever you wish to call it, is at times strangely LIKE—and at other times, strangely DIS·like—Shadowrun, for example. If you've never interfaced with the other side of it, the (ugh) B2B side, you really don't understand it like you might think you do. As much as [RULE 8-ADJACENT INFORMATION REDATED] was a complete fool and obviously corrupt, corporations really DO behave almost like people: ruthlessly exploiting every available avenue which might benefit themselves, while avoiding fights they might gain nothing from.

Uh, all this to say, I have no strong feelings one way or t'other.

 

[da3monh0st3d]

Spoiler: Replying on social conditions - Spin up your favorite doomer mix

Also, holy shit. I'm so sorry, but I need you to know that that really does not come close to compensating for harm done.

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That depends on what one contributes to and the specific nature of the harms (I can however easily claim to do more positive stuff for society in one month of messing around on projects than I do at work in a year). Most jobs that aren't basic manual labor type (and even for those, it gets complicated) have serious problems here (a lot to do with who owns & profits).

As for soup kitchens, we actually have proper food assistance unlike some other countries (and soup kitchens are rare outside the city centers). There are other ways of contributing prosocially. My local "community" most likely shouldn't exist given the shit they tolerate & do (it has done a great job of ensuring its long-term non-sustainability though so that might fix itself on its own).

There's effectively no way to not have contributed to worse than one can ever hope to offset in the course of one's worklife without basically just fucking off innawoods (which will mostly just lead to a miserable death). So keeping a hard count of the negatives is not really of any use, nor is working oneself to death trying to make up for it (it won't work). That's no argument for trying to actively be worse though. (This is my reply to the meme, essentially. At least without digging into Rule 8 & theory of change.)

I cannot meaningfully reply to the rest or expand on the circumstances without either doxing myself or running afoul of Rule 8. I can say however that solving the problem properly at the root requires a set of skills I did not acquire, do not have and which very few seem to have.

edit: It occurs to me that it might not have been clear that when I said "proprietary malware", I was using malware in the same sense/way as GNU does. Which is to say that basically any software with anti-user "features" is consequently malware (malicious (soft)ware, though one can perfectly well make malware devices too). Adware is a classic example and seems to cover the majority of commonly used phone apps.

I'm not making attack toolkits or anything so noteworthy.

Aw man, Welp I saw this coming (I didn't even think about it)

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It was fairly expectable and it's almost surprising there weren't complaints already.

 

[searcher8]

I mean, I can't really say I object to anything here in the rule change. Especially since contrary to what most of the doomers are saying, translated fics are allowed under this change, you just need to actually ask the original author for permission.

Given that anyone doing a translation must by definition know the language that the original story is written in, it's a trivial matter to go and ask the original author if it's alright to do a translation. And anyone somehow incapable of putting in that token level of effort probably doesn't have the work ethic to actually go about properly translating an entire story, so filtering out the people who refuse to do so is no great loss.

 

[Jason Wu]

I do think the topic has some nuance to it. Depending on the language and series, there's a huge chance I would never find the original story since I'm not going to look for it on a whim. A translation would definitely be the easiest way to get my attention.

 

[searcher8]

I do think the topic has some nuance to it. Depending on the language and series, there's a huge chance I would never find the original story since I'm not going to look for it on a whim. A translation would definitely be the easiest way to get my attention.

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Right, which is why the rule allows that, as long as you 1) ask the original author for permission first, and 2) link to the original story, so people can find the original if they enjoy the translation. Neither of these things strike me as being unreasonable requirements in any form.

 

[Aaron Hardin]

The very notion of needing to ask permission to retell a story or alter it is just utterly bizarre.

(As with many nonsensical laws, it was born of monopoly protection.)

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Yes, how dare authors have the ability to make a living by being an author full time, they should have to work regular jobs like fanfic writers.

In all seriousness, intellectual property is property, and while copyright does seem to get abused a bit too much (it is too easy to get things copyrighted that took little to no work to make), it is not a monopoly, as there are other books in similar genres and people can make their own stuff up instead of trying to make money by copying someone else.

 

[da3monh0st3d]

Yes, how dare authors have the ability to make a living by being an author full time, they should have to work regular jobs like fanfic writers.

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I covered all of this in my various posts along this thread and do not feel like rehashing them, please refer to them first.

No I do not have a transcript for the videos at this time.

In all seriousness, intellectual property is property,

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No, the oxymoron is fallacious (one cannot possess nor steal an idea/information, any attempt duplicates infinitely, all that can be stolen is the particular physical representation of it). The conflation term is also harmful (note that this article doesn't go into the problems with patents and copyright, nor the veracity of their claims/purposes).

it is not a monopoly, as there are other books in similar genres and people can make their own stuff up instead of trying to make money by copying someone else.

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It's literally the right to make (and/or sell) copies, it's a monopoly right with subleasing/licensing. It's in the name.

people can make their own stuff up instead of trying to make money by copying someone else.

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And then we get to the trolling potential, which gets exploited a lot albeit within practical limitations. There is no such thing as a fully original work (in the sense of having no relation or derivation however tenuous to anything else) that is at all intelligible to humans (so yes, you can use PRNG noise input into an image generator for fully original art).

The main reason copyright hasn't killed culture is because it's impractical (if not impossible) to truly enforce it to its full extent.

 

[Khalderas]

All I see is people arguing laws and bs that most of us aren't even properly equipped to understand in a proper way.

For fucks sake, you want translations? Ask the author!
Is it so hard to understand this basic form of respect? Forget the legality and all that hogwash talk, just offer some basic respect to someone that has spent some of their time to create a work.

Also, you're talking like QQ is the ONLY place for fanfics in the whole wide Web, Jesus Christ people.

 

[Azraelith]

Justice for Zastra

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No.

He can ask the 1205839+ authors whose stories he spammed taking up the nsfw pages (even though most of them should have been sfw) if he can post like the rest of the translators.

I don't get why people are still whinging about this rule. You can still post translations if you get permission from the author unless they're dead.

Mods should have locked the announcement instead of letting people comment on it but oh well.

 

[Arsinis]

Right, which is why the rule allows that, as long as you 1) ask the original author for permission first, and 2) link to the original story, so people can find the original if they enjoy the translation. Neither of these things strike me as being unreasonable requirements in any form.

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But what if the original author has died or disappeared from the internet and no longer responds? Or what if it's some Chinese fanfic hosted on a poorly designed Chinese website with no way to contact the author, or registering on that Chinese website requires a Chinese phone number?

 

[da3monh0st3d]

Also, you're talking like QQ is the ONLY place for fanfics in the whole wide Web, Jesus Christ people.

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To be fair, for English stuff QQ is pretty much second to Ao3 and that's about it (yes the fact they both allow lewds is a factor). The others tend to be worse and forums have a rather different dynamic/flow than other options.

For stories currently being written, QQ is preferable to Ao3.

 

[Khalderas]

To be fair, for English stuff QQ is pretty much second to Ao3 and that's about it (yes the fact they both allow lewds is a factor). The others tend to be worse and forums have a rather different dynamic/flow than other options.

For stories currently being written, QQ is preferable to Ao3.

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Yes, QQ is a CREATIVE forum as someone mentioned, that's why stories here are better quality, because slop usually Fades away due to people ignoring it or rightfully criticising it.

QQ is great because people actually try to create shit, not just translate. If there were translations, which have become increasingly more present last year, QQ would turn into WN levels of shit.

 

[KinKrow]

I don't get why people are still whinging about this rule. You can still post translations if you get permission from the author unless they're dead.

Mods should have locked the announcement instead of letting people comment on it but oh well.

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Yeah, this thread really does have a really powerful 'Oh No, Anyway' energy to it, doesn't it?

 

[Renko]

But what if the original author has died or disappeared from the internet and no longer responds? Or what if it's some Chinese fanfic hosted on a poorly designed Chinese website with no way to contact the author, or registering on that Chinese website requires a Chinese phone number?

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The mods stated that such things is not an exemption to the rules.

Either get a permission or none at all!

 

[Pandect]

Yeah, this thread really does have a really powerful 'Oh No, Anyway' energy to it, doesn't it?

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Genuinely don't understand why there are so many complainers who aren't even translators in the first place; this didn't even affect them, so why the whining?

 

[Agnisam]

It's not like I don't get some of the arguments and I want to give the benefit of the doubt, as I have seen translations done for the love of the content.

But if it required you to go to some obscure Chinse website to look for a fanfiction or a novel and if it's that hard to contact the author and it might require hard methods to register to do it.
A) You either already know Chinese, have read the thing and really really really want to share the authors work(and that can happen as I said)
or B) You saw a site with easy access to material in the millions of words that you saw you could profit off with a simple machine translation. Which you have turned into a whole ass business venture with it's own site and system, on the backs of said authors of the works, that probably don't even know you have scraped their content and are monetizing it.

People are acting like it's some censorship when the only thing that's changed is that commons sense and courtesy that already existed had to be written down cause select few tried to abuse it and in turn it needed to be made an official rule, to regulate it. Sucks for the ones that were translating for the love of it but better to nip it in the bud then let it fester more.

 

[Chronometry]

People are acting like it's some censorship when the only thing that's changed is that commons sense and courtesy that already existed had to be written down cause select few tried to abuse it and in turn it needed to be made an official rule, to regulate it.

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Bad Actor Ruins Good Thing For Everyone Else is the eternal story of humanity.

 

[KurobaraIto]

I mean, most outright state they're translations. I'd agree anyone saying it's "their story" should be hit for plagiarism, but if they're saying it's "their translation of [link to original story]", then no foul imo.

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Most of the time they don't say it's a translation, don't link the original externally-hosted fanfic/orific, and the only author notes you get is how there are forty advanced chapter on their patreon.

The original author doesn't even get traffic smh

 

[Khalderas]

It's not like I don't get some of the arguments and I want to give the benefit of the doubt, as I have seen translations done for the love of the content.

But if it required you to go to some obscure Chinse website to look for a fanfiction or a novel and if it's that hard to contact the author and it might require hard methods to register to do it.
A) You either already know Chinese, have read the thing and really really really want to share the authors work(and that can happen as I said)
or B) You saw a site with easy access to material in the millions of words that you saw you could profit off with a simple machine translation. Which you have turned into a whole ass business venture with it's own site and system, on the backs of said authors of the works, that probably don't even know you have scraped their content and are monetizing it.

People are acting like it's some censorship when the only thing that's changed is that commons sense and courtesy that already existed had to be written down cause select few tried to abuse it and in turn it needed to be made an official rule, to regulate it. Sucks for the ones that were translating for the love of it but better to nip it in the bud then let it fester more.

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Exactly, people here are arguing about laws and the human nature. Lmao.

It's about basic decency and respect

 

[Kinematics]

What is the practical or legal reason to ban translations of fanfics? Fanfictions can't even be copyrighted.

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Everything is copyrighted, including fanfiction. Your post is copyrighted. There's a reason the forum has this as part of its terms and rules:

You are granting us with a non-exclusive, permanent, irrevocable, unlimited license to use, publish, or re-publish your Content in connection with the Service. You retain copyright over the Content.

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Basically nothing created within your lifetime will ever not be copyrighted, so we warp the rules we live by to fit that reality. (EG: The rule in question.) Most of the time we ignore such laws exist because they do more harm than good, but they do allow for legal weight on things that are otherwise difficult or impossible to enforce (eg: copyleft), so they're a useful evil that we tolerate, even if they are also abused.

I've seen fanfic writers throw fits over people writing fanfic of their fanfics, insisting it wasn't allowed, while having no problem with their own writings that used other people's works. If people have the ability to hurt others over perceived misappropriations of their work (no matter how ill-supported), some will do so. It's an edge case, but a forum like QQ has to deal with those edge cases, even if it's distasteful.


I think my main objection to the "ask permission first" rule is that it violates an unwritten rule in the fandom world: Don't Ask Permission. Fanfic writers, and other creatives such as those making anime music videos, etc, have learned that asking permission of the rights holder triggers a problem: If you don't ask, the rights holder can be blissfully ignorant (in the legal sense, even if they do actually know of the fanwork); but if you do ask, the rights holders are put in the position where they now have to address the existence of the fan-created material. The best negative result is to simply be told "No." The worst result is that asking the question triggers legal repercussions and lawsuits.

Even if the original creator doesn't have any problem with fan works, being asked for permission puts them in a legal quandary. They are now made to be aware of the existence of the potential infringement, and may feel (or actually be) obligated to act in protection of their own interests because of that. Nobody actually wants that to happen.

Requiring explicit permission, while seemingly a simple hurdle, is probably closer to an outright ban because the hurdle is not so simple for the original creators.


All that aside, I can certainly understand the concern about a few users spamming translations. I suspect a single title at a time being updated would cause fewer issues for the users, and concerns for the staff. But that's a lot harder to regulate.

If a translator wants to promote his Patreon, that's not really any different to, say, Blackmarch or Cambrian or whoever promoting their own work-for-hire stuff, but those other authors keep their promotion work contained to single threads (mostly), rather than clogging up the forum. Perhaps regulations on that front would be easier to manage.

 

[SmokeRichards]

I've seen fanfic writers throw fits over people writing fanfic of their fanfics, insisting it wasn't allowed, while having no problem with their own writings that used other people's works.

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It's polite to ask for permission if you are lifting anything, and doubly polite if you are making recursive fanfic. Legally, fanfic writers do have certain copyrights to their own creative ideas, characters, setting and plot (To the point where if you are an established IP holder, it's not a good idea to admit to reading fanfic, because this opens up the possibility of lawsuits if you lift ideas from your fans), but at the same time, enforcing a copyright sorta opens you up to litigation from the IP holder who's sandbox you are playing in.

In essence, I made a character called Aktaeon. He's mine. If someone stole him, I could copyright strike them for that. But I really wouldn't want to, because if Wibbles thinks I'm attempting to assert intellectual ownership over Worm, who Aktaeon is in, then I'm in a world of hurt.

IP holders are in a use-it-or-loose-it dynamic. If they don't defend the IP, they lose their right to it. Fanfic writers are not the same. It's almost the opposite. We are not really allowed to assert ownership, it would be hypocritical if we did, and intellectual rights are only enforced in truly egregious cases where a company has taken our shit and made it into official product.

TLDR: Since other people can ask for permission in the fan scene without triggering a required legal response, it's seen as good form to do just that. Even if it's not required. It is good form to politely credit people for general ideas in one's own thread, but if you are changing those ideas, it's not necessary to ask for permission or give credit.

This all works because of the legal gray space fanfic exists in. It's not legal, but it's not illegal.

Translations would be closer to plagiarism, I think. It's illegal, and the mods basically would like permission from authors because that is what makes it legal. I'm a fanfic writer, and I can tell you that while I have the technical right to copywrite strike anyone who uses Aktaeon Theroktonos, I probably wouldn't as long as you're just playing around with him and making some of your own stuff. I'd be a little miffed about not being asked, but I wouldn't enforce my copyright. If they translate my work in it's entirety, I very well might consider it. That's my intellectual property, and you are taking readers I otherwise might have from me. If you are profiting off of it in any way, via ads, patreaon, or any other form of benefit, I am going to treat you the same way I would treat anyone who has copied my works in their entirety and is selling it without my permission. I will pursue copyright for the parts of the story I do hold ownership over, becuase not only are you a dick, but you could very well get the original IP holder to come down on me like a bag of bricks.

Translations are going to be thought of in very different lights than fanfiction by IP holders. That's just a fact. If it's polite to ask for permission before lifting elements wholesale, then it's downright offensive to have someone translate the entirety of my ideas without so much as a "Hello, how are you?"

I think my main objection to the "ask permission first" rule is that it violates an unwritten rule in the fandom world: Don't Ask Permission. Fanfic writers, and other creatives such as those making anime music videos, etc, have learned that asking permission of the rights holder triggers a problem: If you don't ask, the rights holder can be blissfully ignorant (in the legal sense, even if they do actually know of the fanwork); but if you do ask, the rights holders are put in the position where they now have to address the existence of the fan-created material. The best negative result is to simply be told "No." The worst result is that asking the question triggers legal repercussions and lawsuits.

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Yes, but fanfic is transformative. There is a fundamental difference from fanfic and a translation.

Words are a way to convey ideas. Just because you've used the words doesn't mean you're changing the ideas involved. It's a difference of format. Does it matter if it's in Epub or Mobi? Those are my ideas. All of my ideas. And none of your own. You've just changed the medium.

Fanfic is the creation of your own ideas. That's why it exists in a legal gray area. A translation is a lot closer to piracy.

 

[Aaron Hardin]

Why even do that. Its not like you guys make money off of it. Let people post their translated garbage, it dont do you no harm.

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It can limit the legitimate license holder's ability to make money off of it,

 

[Aaron Hardin]

I covered all of this in my various posts along this thread and do not feel like rehashing them, please refer to them first.

No I do not have a transcript for the videos at this time.

No, the oxymoron is fallacious (one cannot possess nor steal an idea/information, any attempt duplicates infinitely, all that can be stolen is the particular physical representation of it). The conflation term is also harmful (note that this article doesn't go into the problems with patents and copyright, nor the veracity of their claims/purposes).

It's literally the right to make (and/or sell) copies, it's a monopoly right with subleasing/licensing. It's in the name.

And then we get to the trolling potential, which gets exploited a lot albeit within practical limitations. There is no such thing as a fully original work (in the sense of having no relation or derivation however tenuous to anything else) that is at all intelligible to humans (so yes, you can use PRNG noise input into an image generator for fully original art).

The main reason copyright hasn't killed culture is because it's impractical (if not impossible) to truly enforce it to its full extent.

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Wow, I guess you don't really care about innovation, countries that have intellectual property rights are the ones who innovate much more than countries without those. Countries without intellectual property rights tend to instead steal ideas from other countries than come up with their own. Yes, they may seem made up, but the fact that there are real practical beneficial reasons to society as a whole to have them, namely innovation, is why they should exist.

 

[imffqq]

Yes, but fanfic is transformative. There is a fundamental difference from fanfic and a translation.

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Uh, no? Some are derivative others transformative, not to mention the line between them is pretty blurry. Why original authors don't go after ficwriters you've partially written yourself, but you also gave out a pretty hypocritical opinion of why you'd do it yourself, lol. Which suggests to me that the issue here is your self-interest, not that they're completely different things. And for gods sake stop using the word 'plagiarism' instead of 'copyright infringement' it's not the same fucking thing.