SHINOBI: The RPG - New Game

[SebazuD]

Kind of feels like you're doing wrong for Hinata and Naruto a bit here.

And the MC's whole perspective in Naruto keeps getting weirder, like, it's understandable that he wouldnt want to hang out with him but your character is an actual adult. Shouldnt he be able to direct and understand Narutoi better knowing he's a child?

 

[asdo]

I like the chapter and the way you handled the reveal and harem situation, though I also liked the way you did it the last time as well, but that's just me. I am easily amused

 

[Fulcon]

Kind of feels like you're doing wrong for Hinata and Naruto a bit here.

And the MC's whole perspective in Naruto keeps getting weirder, like, it's understandable that he wouldnt want to hang out with him but your character is an actual adult. Shouldnt he be able to direct and understand Naruto better knowing he's a child?

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As an adult, I don't think Hinata is a good match for Naruto. I don't feel like she brings out the best in him, I think she just acts like a carpet because she never grew into someone who could effectively set boundaries.

More importantly, Naruto doesn't want Daisuke's direction. Trying to give it is only going to widen the rift growing between them.

Plus, there's a massive difference between being an adult and being a parent. Daisuke's an adult, sure but he was never a parent and thus has no effective experience in that arena.

I like the chapter and the way you handled the reveal and harem situation, though I also liked the way you did it the last time as well, but that's just me. I am easily amused

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Well, thank you friend. I was hoping it was an improvement, but I'll take good and equivalent any day. Thank you. Have a cookie!

 

[Pentel123]

Good Chapter, but I think you missed agility for the SPECIAL skills when you listed them.

 

[ModerationArt]

I... have no words. I honestly don't know how to process this variant. I saw the first and second drafts of this story, and this third draft makes me feel like I fell into the twilight zone. In the previous versions, even when Daisuke was emotionally crippled to the extreme, he still seemed to act with a iron core of empathy, towards others and especially his friends, and he treated the complicated romantic situation with the respect it deserved. But this? This Daisuke is supposed to be far better in interpreting and understanding emotions, but he honestly sounds even more sociopathic than the literal sociopath version. He, for the last few chapters, has been acting as though the females around him would immediately jump at the chance of being his concubines, he's been apologetically lusting after girls that are twelve (a fact that has been shown in previous versions to be a major moral sticking point for his character), and he's been completely neglecting to think of what would be best for the friends that he ostensibly cares for. It feels like the girls around him are suddenly just checkboxes to mark off.

I really hope there's something that I'm missing here, because this seems like a major flanderization (bimboization) of the characters and story that I've read so far.

tldr: Old Daisuke felt like a real character that was stuck in a shitty situation and I was genuinely rooting for him, this Daisuke just feels like another EvilGrayAmoralSociopathMCSIPleaseDon'tHate(Asshole).

PS. This post feels more acerbic than it is, I'm actually just sitting here incredibly confused as to what is happening to all the likeable characters and interesting character development.
PPS. I am confusion.

 

[SebazuD]

As an adult, I don't think Hinata is a good match for Naruto. I don't feel like she brings out the best in him, I think she just acts like a carpet because she never grew into someone who could effectively set boundaries.

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That's kind of what I mean about Daisuke's perspective on Naruto.

Naruto stops acting rash as he grows up, he matures and stops with most of his dumb shenanigans once he realises people acknolodge him.

Hinata doesnt need to set boundaries because Naruto doesnt stay a child and she's not a carpet because she can stand up for herself when it matters.

Maybe not as they are right now, but your wording implies that both of them are just gonna remain mentally as children.

More importantly, Naruto doesn't want Daisuke's direction. Trying to give it is only going to widen the rift growing between them.

Plus, there's a massive difference between being an adult and being a parent. Daisuke's an adult, sure but he was never a parent and thus has no effective experience in that arena.

Click to shrink...

Daisuke could have directed Naruto pretty easily without him even noticing though.

"All right Naruto, I challenge you do X, if you win I'll show you something cool, if you lose then you have to do X training."

 

[tamagat]

enough about the harem, what about the penguins? are they still a thing?

 

[theaceoffire]

I might as well think about the harem. Like, who do I want in it?

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So I really think it's important to sit down and think about what you actually want. A sexual event with lots of people is definitely an interesting thing that could be fun, but committing to a large group is emotionally draining if you're actually trying to make a stable long-term thing out of it.

I would argue that the non-sexual half, having people to comfort and offer support during trying times, is more valuable in the core group. That single nights of holy crap passion can be an optional thing if the group agrees, but not necessarily a reason to add a whole bunch of people to the core group.

In fact I would argue that having a total of three people involved would be ideal, of any combination of sexes. Aside from when all three have time to be together, the much more likely scenario of someone having something to do would allow the other two to still enjoy themselves while work is getting done. Assuming that communication is kept open, you could create a real happy life with two people who would be able to back you up when needed but still have the option for very kinky sex stuff if the three of you feel up for it!

People have moods when they want to have an orgy, and there's enough people out there that you can probably set one up if the people involved in your core group are attractive enough or if they're wealthy or if they're powerful... But finding somebody who cares about each other is much harder to do.

If you go with Anko, who seems to always be a loyal woman in the stories she's included in, as well as open to unconventional things? Finding a single person to join in with you would ensure that if something goes wrong you would have a partner to help you find the third one... And most importantly in my mind, cuddle pile.

Three people make the perfect cuddle pile. Not too large for most beds, can fit on those couches, and it's fairly easy to get out of the pile if someone needs to go to the bathroom. And when I was most depressed and feeling down, well sometimes you really need someone to hug.

 

[asdo]

hmmm anko, ayame are two good choices? no for hinata since she loves naruto, but cannot really refuse an offer from a noble house without seeming rude, so maybe hanabi? Then there is Hisako? so harem of 4 max?

 

[Fulcon]

ood Chapter, but I think you missed agility for the SPECIAL skills when you listed them.

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I'll try to fix it tomorrow, because I'm pretty tired.

I... have no words.

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Okay then, from the top.

In the previous versions, even when Daisuke was emotionally crippled to the extreme, he still seemed to act with a iron core of empathy, towards others and especially his friends, and he treated the complicated romantic situation with the respect it deserved.

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No, he treated trained killers like helpless infants with zero emotional resilience and himself like a pariah for having biological urges. I don't consider that respectful anymore, I consider it unnecessarily self-destructive.

This Daisuke is supposed to be far better in interpreting and understanding emotions, but he honestly sounds even more sociopathic than the literal sociopath version. He, for the last few chapters, has been acting as though the females around him would immediately jump at the chance of being his concubines, he's been apologetically lusting after girls that are twelve (a fact that has been shown in previous versions to be a major moral sticking point for his character), and he's been completely neglecting to think of what would be best for the friends that he ostensibly cares for. It feels like the girls around him are suddenly just checkboxes to mark off.

Click to shrink...

Yes, he has greater understanding of himself. More importantly, he's got more leniency for himself and the situation he is in, because it's not his fault and setting himself on fire over it doesn't help anything. He's accepted his situation for what it is and is trying to make the best of it. The 'age thing' as I believe I've illustrated but will now say is ridiculous in this context because historically, girls as young as twelve used to marry 30-40 year old men par the course. This concept of childhood and the accompanying moral standards is a recent, Modern Invention. Not a bad one, but one that doesn't exist in the historical period Naruto is based on. You know, because of child soldiers?

As for 'he's been completely neglecting what would be best for his friends', this is patently false. Since the whole thought process started, his position has been 'if they don't want it, it doesn't happen'. Here, let me quote the chapter for you.

Remember Daisuke, you might not have any real chemistry with any of these girls and I need to let them go in such cases. That's okay, we're just fantasizing right now. Not much point in seriously considering it until I know that my main wife is okay with it. And not like 'it's my duty and we need the bloodline' okay with it, I mean actually okay with it with no emotional hang-ups whatsoever. She says no? That's the end of it.

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I hope she hasn't just had her heart broken into a thousand pieces. Or if it has, that I can put it back together.

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Here he is showing concern for Anko, and then Hisako. If he marries Anko and she doesn't want it, it doesn't happen. Given how Harem's are a part of their culture and legal framework, how is this not caring? The first part of this chapter was him just fantasizing. Idly day-dreaming.

Oh, here's an informative post for you to look over regarding the age of consent.

I really hope there's something that I'm missing here, because this seems like a major flanderization (bimboization) of the characters and story that I've read so far.

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Two things.

One, I've changed as a person, grown up and become more healthy, Psychologically.

The second, is that your objection seems rooted in your personal feelings against harems and bigamy. I don't begrudge you for these feelings, nor will I attempt to argue with them, but I do ask that if you just have a problem with the concept just say so instead of trying to cloak it in blatant falsehoods that sound morally right.

Naruto stops acting rash as he grows up, he matures and stops with most of his dumb shenanigans once he realises people acknolodge him.

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No, he stops doing dumb shenanigans and then people recognize him.

Hinata doesnt need to set boundaries because Naruto doesnt stay a child and she's not a carpet because she can stand up for herself when it matters.

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That...no. No, no, no. That is not how it works. Healthy Relationships are a direct result healthy boundaries from both sides. Without boundaries, one individual takes, takes and takes while the other just gives, gives and gives. The one doing the taking doesn't realize he's taking advantage of people and the one who gives slowly builds up a giant resentment toward their partner. That's. Not. Good.

Maybe not as they are right now, but your wording implies that both of them are just gonna remain mentally as children.

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I don't see it, Daisuke's just looking at them in the now.

Daisuke could have directed Naruto pretty easily without him even noticing though.

"All right Naruto, I challenge you do X, if you win I'll show you something cool, if you lose then you have to do X training."

Click to shrink...

That's manipulative and Naruto's smart enough to see right through it and resent Daisuke. Also, I don't think Daisuke is the type to do this.

enough about the harem, what about the penguins? are they still a thing?

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Please consider the following.

When did the Penguin's show up in the previous draft?

Where are we at in this story?

Patience, please.

So I really think it's important to sit down and think about what you actually want. A sexual event with lots of people is definitely an interesting thing that could be fun, but committing to a large group is emotionally draining if you're actually trying to make a stable long-term thing out of it.

Click to shrink...

I completely agree! Daisuke hasn't quite gotten there yet and not only does he need to think about what he actually wants, he needs to ask someone else what they actually want and that's coming! I promise.

I would argue that the non-sexual half, having people to comfort and offer support during trying times, is more valuable in the core group. That single nights of holy crap passion can be an optional thing if the group agrees, but not necessarily a reason to add a whole bunch of people to the core group.

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This is just plain correct. Sex is fine, can be really memorable and lots of fun, but it's not everything. It's extremely important to ensure everyone feels emotionally fulfilled and if there's sex too, that's fine. But emotional comfort and fulfillment is really where it's at.

In fact I would argue that having a total of three people involved would be ideal, of any combination of sexes. Aside from when all three have time to be together, the much more likely scenario of someone having something to do would allow the other two to still enjoy themselves while work is getting done. Assuming that communication is kept open, you could create a real happy life with two people who would be able to back you up when needed but still have the option for very kinky sex stuff if the three of you feel up for it!

Click to shrink...

Sure! Sure, I concede you have a point there.

People have moods when they want to have an orgy, and there's enough people out there that you can probably set one up if the people involved in your core group are attractive enough or if they're wealthy or if they're powerful... But finding somebody who cares about each other is much harder to do.

Click to shrink...

I agree with that. Asking someone to care for one person with everything is...hard. Rare for it to last, if only because communication breaks down. Please care for everyone I have here? That's...that's going to be a lot.

If you go with Anko, who seems to always be a loyal woman in the stories she's included in, as well as open to unconventional things? Finding a single person to join in with you would ensure that if something goes wrong you would have a partner to help you find the third one... And most importantly in my mind, cuddle pile.

Three people make the perfect cuddle pile. Not too large for most beds, can fit on those couches, and it's fairly easy to get out of the pile if someone needs to go to the bathroom. And when I was most depressed and feeling down, well sometimes you really need someone to hug.

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Thank you so much for the well thought out post, I appreciate it and you've given me something to think about.

Have a plate of cookies you wonderful person.

hmmm anko, ayame are two good choices? no for hinata since she loves naruto, but cannot really refuse an offer from a noble house without seeming rude, so maybe hanabi? Then there is Hisako? so harem of 4 max?

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We'll see, but I'm just opening the possibility.

 

[Katorishi]

I like how the harem topic was treated bit more lightly if you get my meaning the relationships more casual and him talking about getting a harem with him fantasizing if you get my meaning. I would like a much more rather focus on the girls individual characters and how they are as people then how that conflicts with romance Like anko growing more as a person Shinobi or even a girlfriend realizing what takes to be in a relationship and commenting on things that deiskui can do to improve or even her being protective for her putting him through a poison regiment to give him poison immunity for his own good but hey you write your story I just like how it's being treated so far

 

[Fulcon]

I like how the harem topic was treated bit more lightly if you get my meaning the relationships more casual and him talking about getting a harem with him fantasizing if you get my meaning casual relationships are completely fine a much more rather focus on the girls individual characters and how they are as people then how that conflicts with romance but hey you write your story I just like how it's being treated so far with casualness

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I suppose. Lightly, because it wasn't an issue at the start. Heavily at the end, because the Hokage made it an issue. Besides, Daisuke has no current obligation to them and likewise, they have no obligation to him. So yeah, pretty casual for now.

 

[Katorishi]

I suppose. Lightly, because it wasn't an issue at the start. Heavily at the end, because the Hokage made it an issue. Besides, Daisuke has no current obligation to them and likewise, they have no obligation to him. So yeah, pretty casual for now.

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One thank you for commenting it's appreciated when the author shows that he reads feedback

P.s. I edited my comments please reread

 

[Fulcon]

One thank you for commenting it's appreciated when the author shows that he reads feedback

P.s. I edited my comments please reread

Click to shrink...

A poison regimen isn't a bad idea.

Thanks, have a cookie.

 

[Galacticplumber]

Okay first, as expected the freakout was a life giver. It was just the right amount to get the intended effect without overstaying its welcome.

Kakashi understanding that his past reactions are NOWHERE NEAR what any sane, healthy person wants, and being a good role model was glorious. Too often in fics he's all maladjusted sadsack, barely functional human with good combat, and a loyalty complex, and that just doesn't work over decades. He's had some seriously hard times, and knows his mistakes.

Gai deliberately bringing up harems in an attempt to shatter the tension with a goddamn sledgehammer, only to have to paper over the raw feelings is a good point of variety. Just because I mentioned he is intelligent, and observant doesn't mean he always hits. Good show. Also Lee being cinnamon bun is also a source of life.

Like I mentioned after the previous chapter, powerful Genin behavior is Very Much So on a curve, and Neji is absolutely the worse of the two mentioned right now. Sasuke is insular with a bad personality. Neji is a regular source of emotional abuse.

Now for the part you've all been waiting for.... Holy crap dammit dropping the bombshell on mechanics this early is gonna change things. And he hasn't even explained feats. I wonder if they're going to ask about his intended progress plans, or even make suggestions?

I've had the harem discussion repeatedly and thoroughly about this setting. Fulcon knows my stances, so I'll just say it was well handled here and leave it.

 

[SebazuD]

That...no. No, no, no. That is not how it works. Healthy Relationships are a direct result healthy boundaries from both sides. Without boundaries, one individual takes, takes and takes while the other just gives, gives and gives. The one doing the taking doesn't realize he's taking advantage of people and the one who gives slowly builds up a giant resentment toward their partner. That's. Not. Good.

Click to shrink...

My bad on this point.
When you said boundaries I was thinking more of the "Dumb guy husband, strong smart woman wifee that handles him" dinamic from american sitcoms, since you said it in the context of being with Naruto.

But I really don't get what you mean then.
If you think Hinata is never gonna be a person that can set healthy boundaries, then your inmediate though of adding her to your harem kind of comes of as really creepy.

Like, can you give an example of how you imagine Naruto and Hinata together would fail?

 

[Galacticplumber]

I'm pretty sure the stated intent was something along the lines of being her friend, cultivating self-confidence, and getting her to understand that her feelings are important, and worth listening to before even attempting to start a romance if ever. At the end of the day she has had an extremely poor environment growing up, and ANYONE starting that relationship should do that work.

While Naruto is ultimately a loving person who just wants to do good, he's also extremely forceful in personality combined with being something of a role model to Hinata, and when you factor in he can be quite oblivious at times it becomes quite clear there are landmines in that relationship. I still rate it higher than Naruto Sakura on the grounds that that relationship has less hidden landmines, and more comically large and numerous bear traps.

 

[RichardWhereat]

Besides, she's got a massive crush on Naruto. Can't just forcibly install myself in her life and stomp all over that.​

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Poor Hinata, I hope she actually does get somewhere with Naruto. That Yamato Nadeshiko nonsense really hurts the girl's reputation in most western country's fanfic culture.

 

[NightmareWarden]

Having this… relationship talk while Hisako's sleeping in the next room, liable to eavesdrop feels unsatisfying. Especially since Anko's behavior was, well, thrown in Hisako's face by mister Hyuuga.

I understand that Daisuke isn't in a position to tell the Hokage to go away… I also get that Daisuke isn't likely to have a defensive emotional reaction on Hisako's behalf. But. This congratulatory thing could have happened in Sarutobi's office. Sarutobi could've given a story about his own life and all the weirdness he's seen in past wars and apocryphal stories to put Daisuke's weirdness in perspective. He could explain the value of what Daisuke just did for the village and the Hyuugas in terms of money and favors.

Or Sarutobi could go and visit the Hyuuga compound, have a tea-chat with the family head while Daisuke is led to them (allowing him to make a mental plan or prepare himself), and then Daisuke could try to control the conversation. Or Daisuke could make/fail a Charisma check to notice "These guys have an agenda here…"


I have no complaints with the harem musings at the start of the chapter. I'd feel better about it if, in a wild clash with last chapter's tone, Daisuke had a wet dream before waking up. This would justify a "teenage hormones" excuse for why Daisuke would drop the ball with Hisako. Sarutobi could even joke about Daisuke taking after Kakashi's peculiarities (reading porn) if Daisuke seemed eager to learn about harems.


Well, drama-wise, Hisako instantly losing the chance to mull over "harem" possibilities in her head is appropriate. It's a spray of gasoline on flickering coals. Her teary-eyes at the end is a wham-line, whatever my own grievances. If I were to put those thoughts to paper though… we recently outlined her competence with the Team Gai spar and her solo-win against the thug. But with her breakdown following Daisuke's injury and this ending… it feels like there's no core of the character peeking through the cracks. "Hisako is in X role, so she must follow Y behaviors," says the theatre director, "no nuance or depth!"

Counterpoint- she spoke up when Nichiren was gave his little speech. That's good! And she piped up for Daisuke's ability explanation. Also okay.

Wait. Daisuke's at a hospital and the Hokage showed up? Did the Hokage leave the village to visit the distant Land of Fire hospital, or… did we skip over the return-trip? Orrrr did Team Gai and Kakashi carry the injured, sleeping-like-a-log Daisuke back to Konoha? Because like… I think the chapter could be improved if Daisuke got his thoughts in order and chatted with Hisako on the trip home. Orrrrr if he was rushed to the Hokage's office from the village gates, making him realize "I need to talk to Hisako soon, though whether or not I should bring up relationships immediately is… complicated."

Followed by Mister Hyuuga and Sarutobi pouring fuel on his hormonal bonfire with harem suggestions.

Fulcon, I recommend you consider splitting this chapter into two chapters, then outlining what you want to do with each. There are good elements here, but… it isn't your best work.

 

[NightmareWarden]

No, he treated trained killers like helpless infants with zero emotional resilience and himself like a pariah for having biological urges. I don't consider that respectful anymore, I consider it unnecessarily self-destructive.

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I'm happy enough with this development. I think some introspection from Daisuke, showing how he came around to this mindset after years of bored speculation prior to becoming a genin would be a good idea. Like I realize this Daisuke isn't the same as the one from the previous drafts, but you can note how similar lines of thought popped up.

Yes, he has greater understanding of himself. More importantly, he's got more leniency for himself and the situation he is in, because it's not his fault and setting himself on fire over it doesn't help anything. He's accepted his situation for what it is and is trying to make the best of it. The 'age thing' as I believe I've illustrated but will now say is ridiculous in this context because historically, girls as young as twelve used to marry 30-40 year old men par the course. This concept of childhood and the accompanying moral standards is a recent, Modern Invention. Not a bad one, but one that doesn't exist in the historical period Naruto is based on. You know, because of child soldiers?

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I'm fine with this; no strong feelings, but I completely get it if folks are against this direction. If you want to hang onto those fans, consider hiding lewd sections behind Spoiler Warnings.

That's manipulative and Naruto's smart enough to see right through it and resent Daisuke. Also, I don't think Daisuke is the type to do this.

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Seems in character for both. I could see Daisuke musing on this too, or musing on an old failure to manipulate Naruto. You've got something cooking between these two and I'm happy to let its flavor grow richer.


And I'm also accepting of your views on the Naru-Hina ship. Whatever, and I get if that's a dealbreaker for some fans.

 

[prussian-granadier]

Just dropping here to say that child marriage has never been the norm throughout history, most tend to be around their 20s for first marriages.

The average age of marriage in England for women was almost always above 20

of course back then the only difference was that it wasn't illegal, it doesn't mean it was common.

here is an expert:

"There is a phrase that I always find myself repeating whenever a general statement is made about the past: "It's more complicated than that." This is one of those myths that is sort of true… in some times and places… but tends to get overgeneralized. Yes, some women were married as teenagers in early America. However, this was not always true everywhere… or even most of the time!

There are many factors you must consider when talking about typical ages at marriage:

Geographic Location & Economic Situation.
Not all times and places are the same. In the early years of New England, 1650-1750, most women married and most around the age of 20-22, with men four or five years older. By contrast, at the same time in Europe (where many of those women or their parents came from) about 10% of the population did not marry at all.(1) In his book From British Peasants to Colonial American Farmers, Alan Kulikoff makes the argument that marriage age in 18th-century America was directly tied to land availability. The more land is available to start working and providing for a family, the sooner a person (male or female) can marry. Here is what he found: The English and their colonists assumed that men could not marry until they could support a household. This was easier in America where land was plentiful than in England where it was not. Benjamin Franklin observed that "Land being thus plenty in America, and so cheap as that a labouring Man, that understands Husbandry, can in a short time save money enough to purchase a Piece of new land sufficient for a Plantation, whereon he may subsist a Family."(2)

Even in America, marriage age fluctuated with availability and cheapness of land, which varied between regions and decades. Here is a chart summarizing Kulikoff's findings. The numbers indicate average age at first marriage.(3)

England, 1700s; Women: 25-26; Men: 30
New England, early 1600s; Women: Teens; Men: 26
New England, late 1600s; Women: 20; Men: 25
Pennsylvania Quakers, 1600s; Women: 22; Men: 26
Pennsylvania Quakers, 1700s; Women: 23; Men: 26
Rural South Carolina, 1700s; Women: 19; Men: 22

For comparison, here is the U.S. census data showing the median age of marriage for selected years in the more recent past4)

1900 Women: 21.9; Men: 25.9
1950 Women: 20.3; Men: 22.8
1975 Women: 21.1; Men: 23.5
2000 Women: 25.1; Men: 26.8

As you can see, the age at first marriage in the 20th century is not that different from the 17th or 18th, depending on exactly where and when you are talking about. While there is a variety, they are all within the same general range rather than the drastic difference many imagine.

Widows & Widowers: Sadly, disease was much more prevalent and you could do less about it than today. Second marriages and stepchildren were rather common, because both men and women regularly took ill and died before reaching old age. If we look for example at the first ten presidents and their wives, four of the wives had been married previously and one of the presidents married again when his wife died. So, the marriage ages often get skewed when an older person who has lost a spouse remarries. To illustrate this, consider President John Tyler, who married Letitia when they were both 23. When Letita died, John remarried, this time to Julia who was 24… although by that time he was 54. You might look at that second marriage and be delightfully scandalized that a man married a woman who was 30 years younger. But remember, in his first marriage, he and his wife were exactly the same age.

Personal Circumstance People still get married as teenagers in America. And some wait until their 40s… or never. It was the same in early America: not everybody fit into a tidy generalization. "

 

[NightmareWarden]

In response to Prussian-granadier…

Spoiler: Marriage, children, harem

I'm reminded of the manga Kingdom. Of the many male soldiers who march off to war hoping to see their sweethearts again. So many teenagers filling out the ranks with the older folks leading them. So many teenagers who might have a kid by the time they come back from the campaign if they were frisky.


Naruto's different because of clan politics, because no one really can explain with clarity how a male, clan-bound ninja screwing with a no-name civilian of the village would be handled. Especially one with Kekkei Genkai. Like… the Hokage is not supposed to tell clan leaders how to run their business. The first generation of Konoha were an alliance of clans and we can assume clan leaders had certain rights that the dictator-of-Konoha would stay away from. But after wars and tragedies like the Nine Tails, a leader like Sarutobi (leaders in most villages, excluding Mist) would see the use in bloodline powers.

So he'd make allowances and prepare a pot of soil for a new Konoha tool. One for the next generation's leader to care for or prune. Like… the more heartless villages? They'd totally let a new clan head be a pedophile; happens often enough with viziers, associate heads of state.

But that's not really the direction Fulcon's aiming with Daisuke's new perspective. I completely understand if a fan would find his plans for grooming girls sickening. And I get why others would call it a grey area since he's a kid again, and we don't know how much of pre-Isekai Daisuke is really left. Being a killer changes someone. Living in a new culture changes one, even if you have an outsider's skepticism to avoid get brainwashing/indoctrination of ideologies like the Will of Fire.

So is everyone critical because the words Fulcon's using to justify this new direction are about marriage ages in the past and in Japan? Because that isn't the only point Fulcon has brought up.

 

[Pavalos]

Double update! Great stuff man. Love it

 

[prussian-granadier]

In response to Prussian-granadier…

Spoiler: Marriage, children, harem

I'm reminded of the manga Kingdom. Of the many male soldiers who march off to war hoping to see their sweethearts again. So many teenagers filling out the ranks with the older folks leading them. So many teenagers who might have a kid by the time they come back from the campaign if they were frisky.


Naruto's different because of clan politics, because no one really can explain with clarity how a male, clan-bound ninja screwing with a no-name civilian of the village would be handled. Especially one with Kekkei Genkai. Like… the Hokage is not supposed to tell clan leaders how to run their business. The first generation of Konoha were an alliance of clans and we can assume clan leaders had certain rights that the dictator-of-Konoha would stay away from. But after wars and tragedies like the Nine Tails, a leader like Sarutobi (leaders in most villages, excluding Mist) would see the use in bloodline powers.

So he'd make allowances and prepare a pot of soil for a new Konoha tool. One for the next generation's leader to care for or prune. Like… the more heartless villages? They'd totally let a new clan head be a pedophile; happens often enough with viziers, associate heads of state.

But that's not really the direction Fulcon's aiming with Daisuke's new perspective. I completely understand if a fan would find his plans for grooming girls sickening. And I get why others would call it a grey area since he's a kid again, and we don't know how much of pre-Isekai Daisuke is really left. Being a killer changes someone. Living in a new culture changes one, even if you have an outsider's skepticism to avoid get brainwashing/indoctrination of ideologies like the Will of Fire.

So is everyone critical because the words Fulcon's using to justify this new direction are about marriage ages in the past and in Japan? Because that isn't the only point Fulcon has brought up.

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Not actually as common as one would think is my point,

even if they were legally allowed to do horrendous things like many people in history did (Gilles de Rais, the prophet Mohamed, a lot of people like the mountain from Game of Thrones) those were exceptions rather than the norm.

maybe grooming isn't the right word as people don't consider arranged marriage grooming.

its is however an irregular state of affairs, Japan especially was a very monogamous society where even the emperor had only one wife

 

[Garganator]

I... have no words. I honestly don't know how to process this variant. I saw the first and second drafts of this story, and this third draft makes me feel like I fell into the twilight zone. In the previous versions, even when Daisuke was emotionally crippled to the extreme, he still seemed to act with a iron core of empathy, towards others and especially his friends, and he treated the complicated romantic situation with the respect it deserved. But this? This Daisuke is supposed to be far better in interpreting and understanding emotions, but he honestly sounds even more sociopathic than the literal sociopath version. He, for the last few chapters, has been acting as though the females around him would immediately jump at the chance of being his concubines, he's been apologetically lusting after girls that are twelve (a fact that has been shown in previous versions to be a major moral sticking point for his character), and he's been completely neglecting to think of what would be best for the friends that he ostensibly cares for. It feels like the girls around him are suddenly just checkboxes to mark off.

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While this is mostly true, I can see how some women may approach him to straight-up try to seduce him to the marriage. He is a young prodigy, with a very prestigious new bloodline, who even has the interest of Hyuuga. Them being mercenary about the relationship with him is something I can see in many cases because they can win a lot with it. So as annoying it is, some of them will for example offer their daughters the potential marriage, which we already kind of see with Hyuuga.

So in some cases, it may be in fact true.

Naruto stops acting rash as he grows up, he matures and stops with most of his dumb shenanigans once he realises people acknolodge him.

Hinata doesnt need to set boundaries because Naruto doesnt stay a child and she's not a carpet because she can stand up for herself when it matters.

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Honestly? I'm also not a fan of Hinata.

Also with what happens in Boruto, and Boruto/Naruto conflict, while Hinata did absolutely nothing to really prevent it...

But I would also be fair to her, and that she, later on, received a character development. But I also don't get that Kishimoto's tendency with kunoichi ending up as housewives most of the time once their careers end up with very few exceptions, so I guess it may be a bigger overall issue...

So I really think it's important to sit down and think about what you actually want. A sexual event with lots of people is definitely an interesting thing that could be fun, but committing to a large group is emotionally draining if you're actually trying to make a stable long-term thing out of it.

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I think as mentioned before 3 people is the most optimal choice.

Because in the end? There is only so much time in the day you have.

Balancing between too many people will be simply draining, and someone sooner or later will be neglected, as there is only so much time.

To be fair Naruto is a setting with Shadow Clones that may actually maybe make it work... but it sounds like a hassle.

I think the most optimal solution here would be that Daisuke picks up 2-3 people at max, and the rest end up as surrogate mothers with his sperm samples if the goal is to start a new clan. Because in the end, this is the goal here.

People have moods when they want to have an orgy, and there's enough people out there that you can probably set one up if the people involved in your core group are attractive enough or if they're wealthy or if they're powerful... But finding somebody who cares about each other is much harder to do.

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Pretty much. If they are fine with polygamy in the end, and mood strikes for bigger orgy or something, they may simply set it up as something that happens once in a while, and not force the marriage for everyone involved.

Just dropping here to say that child marriage has never been the norm throughout history, most tend to be around their 20s for first marriages.

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While 'mini-adults' in medieval times is a popular misconception that is pretty popular, they were still put to work from a very young age and treated in many cases like adults would be anyway.

And while you are right that underage marriages were very rare, they happened. Mostly it was between 14-16, although... younger cases also happened. But the main reason against it was how risky young pregnancies were, and not the morality of it really.

But I see that you mention the 16th century or later, which in this case you are right. But earlier on, this wasn't the case.

Also in some cultures, the first menstruation cycle is the one that decides about someone's adulthood.

Also on Naruto and harems/marriages - I take it that Fulcon makes a Naruto a mix of ancient Japan, and modern Japan, which may create pretty weird marriage custom traditions. Because, well, sub-wives was a pretty popular concept in older Japan, and it was culturally acceptable, so Hisako reacting with shock to it is a bit surprising, but with modern values also being mixed in it makes sense.

Also on adulthood in Naruto - it's 100% canon that genin graduates are adults in the eyes of the village, so in this case, it's canon that may be blamed for it. So in this case I take as also permission to be married. Some people make the distinction that this doesn't include civilians and only shinobi, but it's up to each author at this point.

 

[Darkarma]

Hisako's thought proces: I don't want to share Daisuke...! But I'll still have a chance! But sharing!? I always wanted a sister... damn it, I'm going to have to point him in the right direction if I want a good position.

At least that's what I'm guessing.

Good chapter. Though his fixation on the harem at the beginning of the chapter felt a bit staged. I expected this to happen once things were more official back in Konoha, perhaps when he was window shopping.

While I will always remain Hinata and Naruto are meant for each other, I wouldn't say no to her being included more as being attached to Daisuke.

Though with the way this is going I am wondering if this will have to be moved to the NSFW section.

 

[dontenglish]

A poison regimen isn't a bad idea.

Thanks, have a cookie.

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so its been too long since the last update so can you remind me what were putting are skill points into right now is ninjutsu or medicine I cant remmber

also is there anywhere I can find his stat sheet

 

[Fulcon]

Okay first, as expected the freakout was a life giver. It was just the right amount to get the intended effect without overstaying its welcome.

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Not for the first time, I'm thankful for your bastion of sanity.

Kakashi understanding that his past reactions are NOWHERE NEAR what any sane, healthy person wants, and being a good role model was glorious. Too often in fics he's all maladjusted sadsack, barely functional human with good combat, and a loyalty complex, and that just doesn't work over decades. He's had some seriously hard times, and knows his mistakes.

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Thank you very much. I'm glad I was able to show Kakashi as a stable mentor figure. It kind of bugs me how, in most fanfics, he's shown as having learned nothing from his past when, even in Canon the dude was an awesome teacher.

Gai deliberately bringing up harems in an attempt to shatter the tension with a goddamn sledgehammer, only to have to paper over the raw feelings is a good point of variety. Just because I mentioned he is intelligent, and observant doesn't mean he always hits. Good show. Also Lee being cinnamon bun is also a source of life.

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Glad you liked it. Seems, unfortunately, that I've stirred up a bit of a hornets nest here, but that mirrors what happens in the fic, so I guess it's too be expected.

Now for the part you've all been waiting for.... Holy crap dammit dropping the bombshell on mechanics this early is gonna change things. And he hasn't even explained feats. I wonder if they're going to ask about his intended progress plans, or even make suggestions?

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Well, Lee is going to be helping Daisuke search for skill books and I can definitely see suggestions from everyone being a thing. Heck, even Neji might get in on the game.

Like, can you give an example of how you imagine Naruto and Hinata together would fail?

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Going off of what I heard, Boruto.

She still calls him Naruto-kun, tolerates him barely being there to raise their children and I just plain don't like it.

I'm pretty sure the stated intent was something along the lines of being her friend, cultivating self-confidence, and getting her to understand that her feelings are important, and worth listening to before even attempting to start a romance if ever. At the end of the day she has had an extremely poor environment growing up, and ANYONE starting that relationship should do that work.

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Thank you.

While Naruto is ultimately a loving person who just wants to do good, he's also extremely forceful in personality combined with being something of a role model to Hinata, and when you factor in he can be quite oblivious at times it becomes quite clear there are landmines in that relationship. I still rate it higher than Naruto Sakura on the grounds that that relationship has less hidden landmines, and more comically large and numerous bear traps.

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Honestly, I've become more sympathetic to Sakura's...violent tendencies. Naruto's been bothering her for a while and given how forceful he is, trying to tell him nicely just wouldn't cut it. Not that I approve of the violent habit once they become friends but I understand where it comes from.

Having this… relationship talk while Hisako's sleeping in the next room, liable to eavesdrop feels unsatisfying. Especially since Anko's behavior was, well, thrown in Hisako's face by mister Hyuuga.

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Thank you for saying so, this gives me something to think about.

Well, drama-wise, Hisako instantly losing the chance to mull over "harem" possibilities in her head is appropriate. It's a spray of gasoline on flickering coals. Her teary-eyes at the end is a wham-line, whatever my own grievances. If I were to put those thoughts to paper though… we recently outlined her competence with the Team Gai spar and her solo-win against the thug. But with her breakdown following Daisuke's injury and this ending… it feels like there's no core of the character peeking through the cracks. "Hisako is in X role, so she must follow Y behaviors," says the theatre director, "no nuance or depth!"

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I'm not sure I understand. Can you elaborate, please? In my view, this is the first time she's had to deal with real, actual loss, and grown men have been reduced to weeping at the loss of a comrade. Seriously, that entire scene was written with 'Daisuke died' as being the forefront of everyone's minds.

Wait. Daisuke's at a hospital and the Hokage showed up? Did the Hokage leave the village to visit the distant Land of Fire hospital, or… did we skip over the return-trip? Orrrr did Team Gai and Kakashi carry the injured, sleeping-like-a-log Daisuke back to Konoha? Because like… I think the chapter could be improved if Daisuke got his thoughts in order and chatted with Hisako on the trip home. Orrrrr if he was rushed to the Hokage's office from the village gates, making him realize "I need to talk to Hisako soon, though whether or not I should bring up relationships immediately is… complicated."

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Daisuke left the hospital and returned to the Hotel where everyone was staying, even if they changed room sets. Then the Hokage arrived with the Hyuuga clan patriarch to demonstrate how seriously he took this breech of security. A friggan branch member had been abducted and kept alive in stasis; obviously, the Byakugan was being traded to someone, somewhere.

Fulcon, I recommend you consider splitting this chapter into two chapters, then outlining what you want to do with each. There are good elements here, but… it isn't your best work.

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I disagree, and I will not. The chapter is fine from my point of view.

And I'm also accepting of your views on the Naru-Hina ship. Whatever, and I get if that's a dealbreaker for some fans.

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Thank you.

here is an expert:

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The time period Naruto is based on extends from 1467 to 1615.

Your earliest example is 1700. 85 years out of date and it's not even the right country.

In Japan, for instance, the age of consent is still 13 (with changes being made depending on the Prefecture).

its is however an irregular state of affairs, Japan especially was a very monogamous society where even the emperor had only one wife

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That depends mostly on the time period.

Kejmur made a remarkable post with youtube videos about Feudal Japan that were very informative.

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I didn't use everything in the videos, I made changes for clarity and personal appeal, but it's still highly educational and I recommend watching it.

While this is mostly true, I can see how some women may approach him to straight-up try to seduce him to the marriage. He is a young prodigy, with a very prestigious new bloodline, who even has the interest of Hyuuga. Them being mercenary about the relationship with him is something I can see in many cases because they can win a lot with it. So as annoying it is, some of them will for example offer their daughters the potential marriage, which we already kind of see with Hyuuga.

So in some cases, it may be in fact true.

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Mostly true? Hang on, I was trying to show Daisuke being as conscientious as he could in his situation and as respectful to their feelings as well, he could be. I guess I failed?

Because in the end? There is only so much time in the day you have.

Balancing between too many people will be simply draining, and someone sooner or later will be neglected, as there is only so much time.

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That's when you start having the individual wives giving each other time so it's not all on the husband. Seriously, it's a large family, placing everyone's emotional support on one person never ends well.

Pretty much. If they are fine with polygamy in the end, and mood strikes for bigger orgy or something, they may simply set it up as something that happens once in a while, and not force the marriage for everyone involved.

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I agree with this.

While 'mini-adults' in medieval times is a popular misconception that is pretty popular, they were still put to work from a very young age and treated in many cases like adults would be anyway.

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It's a misconception, I suppose, but it's a rule of the Naruto setting.

Also on Naruto and harems/marriages - I take it that Fulcon makes a Naruto a mix of ancient Japan, and modern Japan, which may create pretty weird marriage custom traditions. Because, well, sub-wives was a pretty popular concept in older Japan, and it was culturally acceptable, so Hisako reacting with shock to it is a bit surprising, but with modern values also being mixed in it makes sense.

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I think Hisako's issue was she honestly hadn't expected it. Why? Perspective; she was hyper focused on just getting Daisuke that being forced to share didn't even cross her mind. Like, well, a lack of experience brought by lack of years. But what do I know? I just write the thing.

Also on adulthood in Naruto - it's 100% canon that genin graduates are adults in the eyes of the village, so in this case, it's canon that may be blamed for it. So in this case I take as also permission to be married. Some people make the distinction that this doesn't include civilians and only shinobi, but it's up to each author at this point.

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Exactly. Thank you.

Hisako's thought proces: I don't want to share Daisuke...! But I'll still have a chance! But sharing!? I always wanted a sister... damn it, I'm going to have to point him in the right direction if I want a good position.

At least that's what I'm guessing.

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Seems right to me.

Good chapter. Though his fixation on the harem at the beginning of the chapter felt a bit staged. I expected this to happen once things were more official back in Konoha, perhaps when he was window shopping.

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I don't know, he just recovered from a near-death experience and was just laying in bed with no expectations. That kind of thing is cause for introspection, I think.

But thanks for the compliment.

While I will always remain Hinata and Naruto are meant for each other, I wouldn't say no to her being included more as being attached to Daisuke.

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We'll see. I don't want to make any promises, but I have a few scenes in mind.

Though with the way this is going I am wondering if this will have to be moved to the NSFW section.

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Nah, the naughty bits are going to have to remain in your imagination.

so its been too long since the last update so can you remind me what were putting are skill points into right now is ninjutsu or medicine I cant remmber

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Fuinjutsu. Seals.

also is there anywhere I can find his stat sheet

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I don't keep a current stat sheet on the internet, it's on my computer.

 

[Mr Beaver Buttington]

It would honestly be a breath of fresh air for Naruto to not be paired with Hinata.

 

[Galacticplumber]

Okay, last clarification on my stance on the issue. I'm not saying Narusaku is in a worse position to try to pass blame on people. I'm just saying that those circumstances, and problems seem a dramatically less healthy point to start. A lot more work will be required to get that to something healthy.

I'm also not gonna get aggro about it, because you've earned the benefit of the doubt to attempt showing that work. Soft skeptical basically. It aint even like I think it's the hottest take among your ideas. I mean KAGUYA?! Really?! Though I'm pretty sure that idea is supposed to be a hot take.