SHINOBI: The RPG - New Game

[Fulcon]

Okay, last clarification on my stance on the issue. I'm not saying Narusaku is in a worse position to try to pass blame on people. I'm just saying that those circumstances, and problems seem a dramatically less healthy point to start. A lot more work will be required to get that to something healthy.

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No, no. I agree. Like I said, I don't approve of Sakura's violent methods, just saying that I understand how they came to pass.

It aint even like I think it's the hottest take among your ideas. I mean KAGUYA?! Really?! Though I'm pretty sure that idea is supposed to be a hot take.

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It's a pretty hot take, yeah.

EDIT: Sorry for missing this...

It would honestly be a breath of fresh air for Naruto to not be paired with Hinata.

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Honestly, I'm of a mind to agree. We all know Naruto and Hinata are true loves, destined to be together...can we see something even remotely different?

 

[Galacticplumber]

No, no. I agree. Like I said, I don't approve of Sakura's violent methods, just saying that I understand how they came to pass.



It's a pretty hot take, yeah.

EDIT: Sorry for missing this...



Honestly, I'm of a mind to agree. We all know Naruto and Hinata are true loves, destined to be together...can we see something even remotely different?

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You could compromise. Have Naruto learn better emotional skills from the Sakura relationship, and Hinata have better headspace due to Daisuke's help, before shifting into the Canon pairing as better healthier people.

 

[Fulcon]

You could compromise. Have Naruto learn better emotional skills from the Sakura relationship, and Hinata have better headspace due to Daisuke's help, before shifting into the Canon pairing as better healthier people.

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It's a good idea and I will genuinely consider it. In fact, I am considering it.

Have a cookie.

 

[Akuma-Heika]

Not for the first time, I'm thankful for your bastion of sanity.



Thank you very much. I'm glad I was able to show Kakashi as a stable mentor figure. It kind of bugs me how, in most fanfics, he's shown as having learned nothing from his past when, even in Canon the dude was an awesome teacher.



Glad you liked it. Seems, unfortunately, that I've stirred up a bit of a hornets nest here, but that mirrors what happens in the fic, so I guess it's too be expected.



Well, Lee is going to be hel



The time period Naruto is based on extends from 1467 to 1615.

Your earliest example is 1700. 85 years out of date and it's not even the right country.

In Japan, for instance, the age of consent is still 13 (with changes being made depending on the Prefecture).



That depends mostly on the time period.




I don't keep a current stat sheet on the internet, it's on my computer.

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While the age of consent is 13 nationally, I am near positive that it isn't that low anywhere in Japan.

Have to point out the TV's, so the tech level isn't completely restrained to the 17th century, unless you are specifying your fic rather than canon.

On Hinata's actions in Boruto, there are two details you seem to be overlooking, her upbringing and his position as a head of state for one of their worlds super powers. Compared to Naruto's father, Naruto is doing fairly well -_- (not like that was a high bar)

On a phone (and will be for a few more days), so I gave up deleting the other elements. Sorry for how it looks.

 

[Galacticplumber]

Are we..... Are we considering not trying to improve relationship dynamics with what foreknowledge is available to grade on the abysmal curve of how the previous generation went in canon? That's the scariest thing I've heard all week, and I just saw that dollhouse section from the new resident evil.

 

[Fulcon]

While the age of consent is 13 nationally, I am near positive that it isn't that low anywhere in Japan.

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It's that low in both of Japan's Territories (the Okinatori Islands and the Marcus Islands) and it is that low elsewhere.

Here's my original post, which has my source in it.

EDIT:

Have to point out the TV's, so the tech level isn't completely restrained to the 17th century, unless you are specifying your fic rather than canon.

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Technology in my fic (and in my head canon) come from a by-gone era and Naruto is technically post apocolypse.

In regards to your argument, being high tech doesn't mean they'd have the same cultural moors as we do.

On Hinata's actions in Boruto, there are two details you seem to be overlooking, her upbringing and his position as a head of state for one of their worlds super powers. Compared to Naruto's father, Naruto is doing fairly well -_- (not like that was a high bar)

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He has shadow clones. They can handle the affairs of state every once in a while if he can't delegate responsibility so he can spend time with his family in person.

EDIT AGAIN:

This fic is taking cues from history, which...is distasteful in certain areas. People did get married and have children at far younger ages simply because the life expectancy was really low.

I'm not intending to advocate for it in this fic, I'm simply explaining it.

 

[Sefera]

I hope no one's disappointed that Daisuke's reveal scene was done in the third person.

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Not disappointed at all, it shows quite a lot of growth in the character; or atleast the difference the greater Charisma makes, that they don't have to work it out alone.

 

[Fulcon]

Not disappointed at all, it shows quite a lot of growth in the character; or atleast the difference the greater Charisma makes, that they don't have to work it out alone.

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Thank you very much for the kind words!

Have a cookie.

 

[l---erddad---l]

I'm guessing the discussion is going to degrade after this chapter so I'm not gonna read it, but there's something deeply funny about the whiplash between how Daisuke sees marriage in the last version and this version of the story. It kind feels like two extremes of a slider.

 

[Fulcon]

I'm guessing the discussion is going to degrade after this chapter so I'm not gonna read it, but there's something deeply funny about the whiplash between how Daisuke sees marriage in the last version and this version of the story. It kind feels like two extremes of a slider.

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Oh, it's fun watching people with a moral or emotional objection to this chapter trying to put their objection into logical terms.

(Not that their objection isn't fair, it's just not one that I share)

As for the whiplash...I grew into a different person. Someone who has a better understanding that cultural moors are not necessarily moral moors.

 

[aj0413]

So, not gonna lie, the entire harem thought process felt incredibly creepy; least of all because it would literally be intentional bride grooming for Hinata, Sakura, etc...

That's not even touch on the questionable morality of manipulating Hinata and Naruto's love life away from what is organically occurring, in some attempt to direct their lives in ways the MC thinks is better. I mean, if I ever found out a friend did that? Would be immediate grounds to cut them out of my life permanently, regardless of anything else.

Feels similar to the issues that cropped up in the first iteration of the story where the MC decides he knows best for everyone around him and then decides to act on it.

On the one hand, the section of the chapter makes sense from a "young, horny man fantasizing" (I might have even had some similar thoughts), but the implication here is that since it was explicitly gone over in the story that we'll see fall out from those thoughts, which would raise major ethical issues in a number of cases, eg, bridal grooming, manipulation, necromancy, etc...

edit:

I guess, it will boil down to how the rest of the story flows. There's no reason why the MC should be perfectly likable to us the audience, so it could be fun watching the fallout of him acting on any of these thoughts and seeing what the rest of the cast does.

Could be interesting watching him continuously try to "help" Naruto and inadvertently destroy their relationship beyond repair.

 

[Fulcon]

So, not gonna lie...

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THANK YOU.

A criticism of the chapter that makes sense! Thank you! Have a plate of cookies.

I appreciate what you've put down here and I will consider and think over it very carefully in the future!

 

[aj0413]

THANK YOU.

A criticism of the chapter that makes sense! Thank you! Have a plate of cookies.

I appreciate what you've put down here and I will consider and think over it very carefully in the future!

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Happy to give my input.

I think that while you have removed some of the overt flaws and character growth of the first iteration of the story from the MC, you could still make the interpersonal relations as interesting by avoiding the "Superman" / "Benevolent God-Emperor" trap of the 1st version of the story and focusing on more easily relatable issues, such as "helping Naruto cause I'm the adult and clearly know best" scenario, or having the MC think of the people in terms of waifus and anime characters instead of real people, etc...

In essence, while the MC doesnt have as overt character flaws from the RPG side of things, you could subtly re-enforce the "just human" fallibility side of things that was missing from the first story.

The chapter may even act as a good spring board for the above. Or heck, could use it to reinforce the whole: "Just because you were once an adult Daisuke doesn't mean you're still one now; sometimes you think like a horny youngster and that's okay"

Hmm. My reaction to the chapter is, of course, tempered by having read your other writing

 

[Fulcon]

Hmm. My reaction to the chapter is, of course, tempered by having read your other writing

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I appreciate the faith in me.

 

[Galacticplumber]

While it is true that thinking to manipulate someone is creepy, in the presence of predestined knowledge not acting on it is ALSO choosing for the subject.

You literally cannot avoid confronting this issue, and a choice must be made. Do you act as you think is best, even if it means infantalizing people in your mind, and maybe prevent bad things, or do you try to intervene as little as possible, and hope to not accidentally make things worse?

You get to make this choice in a setting where apocalyptic threats are on the table. Not every instance of this choice is going to be that high stakes, but how highly do you value consistency or specificity in situations?

And for that matter doesn't arguing someone's entire philosophy into something else over a few minutes largely fall into the same creepy holes if you think about it?

 

[Fulcon]

While it is true that thinking to manipulate someone is creepy, in the presence of predestined knowledge not acting on it is ALSO choosing for the subject.

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In choosing not to decide, you have still made a choice.

You literally cannot avoid confronting this issue, and a choice must be made. Do you act as you think is best, even if it means infantalizing people in your mind, and maybe prevent bad things, or do you try to intervene as little as possible, and hope to not accidentally make things worse?

You get to make this choice in a setting where apocalyptic threats are on the table. Not every instance of this choice is going to be that high stakes, but how highly do you value consistency or specificity in situations?

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I agree with this.

And for that matter doesn't arguing someone's entire philosophy into something else over a few minutes largely fall into the same creepy holes if you think about it?

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The issue is that planning it out seems creepy while it happening in the heat of the moment makes it seem like it was just meant to be.

I object to this idea because it means that thinking things through is bad. It's not. Thinking about social dynamics and how to get what you want out of them is bad.

Now, if Daisuke were to actively harm any of the girls he talked about, I'd agree, he's a bad, bad person.

But if he's just thinking...it's just a thought.

 

[The Unaligned Player]

While it is true that thinking to manipulate someone is creepy, in the presence of predestined knowledge not acting on it is ALSO choosing for the subject.

You literally cannot avoid confronting this issue, and a choice must be made. Do you act as you think is best, even if it means infantalizing people in your mind, and maybe prevent bad things, or do you try to intervene as little as possible, and hope to not accidentally make things worse?

You get to make this choice in a setting where apocalyptic threats are on the table. Not every instance of this choice is going to be that high stakes, but how highly do you value consistency or specificity in situations?

And for that matter doesn't arguing someone's entire philosophy into something else over a few minutes largely fall into the same creepy holes if you think about it?

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Ah, Seers and Social Specs. Making the concept of free will and agency look like jokes since the dawn of time.

 

[Fulcon]

Ah, Seers and Social Specs. Making the concept of free will and agency look like jokes since the dawn of time.

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I've found a theme to explore for the fic.

Thank you for your contribution, have a cookie.

 

[aj0413]

While it is true that thinking to manipulate someone is creepy, in the presence of predestined knowledge not acting on it is ALSO choosing for the subject.

You literally cannot avoid confronting this issue, and a choice must be made. Do you act as you think is best, even if it means infantalizing people in your mind, and maybe prevent bad things, or do you try to intervene as little as possible, and hope to not accidentally make things worse?

You get to make this choice in a setting where apocalyptic threats are on the table. Not every instance of this choice is going to be that high stakes, but how highly do you value consistency or specificity in situations?

And for that matter doesn't arguing someone's entire philosophy into something else over a few minutes largely fall into the same creepy holes if you think about it?

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All things in context:

The idea of manipulation and free will in the context of moral and ethical debate, largely comes down to what exactly is being discussed, for most people.

Going back to the Naruto and Hinata pairing, as an example; if this would wipe out humanity, then it becomes a case where most pragmatic people would say that there is a duty to act. However, that wasn't the case in this example, clearly. It's merely interpersonal romantic relations and the issue is further complicated by the fact that no matter how Daisuke thinks of the "healthiness" or "correctness" of their future relationship and parenting, that's really just his opinion on the subject and doesn't even take into account their happiness...which he can't know because he's not all seeing/knowing.

Barring all that, though:

Our opinions and Daisukes are not the only ones who matter here. There's also the rest of the cast who also have agency and likely various other opinions, which I'd imagine have to come into consideration if MC want's to continue being friends with these people.

Questions like "Do I act on this future knoweldge" is an endlessly debatable topic and each instance generally has to be taken into a vacuum because there's too much to consider.

The idea that someone can just make singular choice and know it's the correct one, in all contexts, is the domain of Saints and Monsters.

edit:

As for the debate == change mind == creepy manipulation?

I feel like it largely comes down to a matter of intention, in my opinion.

For instance, again referencing the chapter:

Daisuke dating Hisako? Largely an organic affair. Of course, he's also going to help her in whatever way he can.

Daisuke dating Sakura after this chapter? Bridal grooming since he pre-meditated his angle of approach and how he would specifically shape and mold her into what he wanted.

 

[Galacticplumber]

And the idea that literally every decision has to be individually considered brings paralysis, and a rejection of the possibility that the person making these choices has noticed they have preferences on these philosophical issues if at least by the pattern of their responses.

I take the position that free will is demonstrably false, but that doesn't mean you have to be a dick when you choose to use your knowledge to enforce your views. When, not if, because the person who goes to live the life of a hermit willingly makes themselves a non-entity.

 

[aj0413]

And the idea that literally every decision has to be individually considered brings paralysis, and a rejection of the possibility that the person making these choices has noticed they have preferences on these philosophical issues if at least by the pattern of their responses.

I take the position that free will is demonstrably false, but that doesn't mean you have to be a dick when you choose to use your knowledge to enforce your views. When, not if, because the person who goes to live the life of a hermit willingly makes themselves a non-entity.

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Well, I guess we differ there, because I take the position that without free will you might as well not be alive, ergo what's the point of your continued existence? Thus, I must take a counter stance.

Even ignoring that:

I think we can reasonably assume most people avoid decision paralysis specifically because of two factors:
A) they accept they can't always be right and thus just choose
B) not all decisions are given equal consideration and weight

Circling back to the point of "when, not if":

I agree, if only because it's impossible for a human not to let future knowledge influence his decisions and even if he consciously tried not to let it inform all decisions no reasonable human being can expect to be that infallible.

A large part of the reactions to this chapter were due in part to the specific context surrounding what was being considered and how it was being presented.

 

[Galacticplumber]

Why live without free will? Life is enjoyable, and even if my choices are preprogrammed lies constructed by causality, I'll still make them, because my program WILL execute.

 

[Fulcon]

A large part of the reactions to this chapter were due in part to the specific context surrounding what was being considered and how it was being presented.

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Excellent point. When the fic is done, I'll have to come back to it and give it a huge edit just to change the context.

EDIT:

Daisuke dating Sakura after this chapter? Bridal grooming since he pre-meditated his angle of approach and how he would specifically shape and mold her into what he wanted.

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...does the fact that Sakura has the choice to accept or reject Daisuke's assistance or advances mean anything here?

 

[aj0413]

Excellent point. When the fic is done, I'll have to come back to it and give it a huge edit just to change the context.

EDIT:



...does the fact that Sakura has the choice to accept or reject Daisuke's assistance or advances mean anything here?

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Don't know if I would suggest changing the chapter, honestly.

As for Sakura's decision making?

I mean, I'd largely file that under the same reasoning that sex with a minor is a federal offense

There's just a large aspect of the dynamic there that calls into question her ability to not be manipulated and have real say in that kind of relationship with Daisuke.

edit:

The future knowledge and insight into her deep personal psyche doesn't help here. Makes it much worse since Daisuke would almost certainly use that to his advantaged even if he didn't want to.

 

[Fulcon]

There's just a large aspect of the dynamic there that calls into question her ability to not be manipulated and have real say in that kind of relationship with Daisuke.

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Another excellent point. Thank you.

 

[Garganator]

Honestly, I've become more sympathetic to Sakura's...violent tendencies. Naruto's been bothering her for a while and given how forceful he is, trying to tell him nicely just wouldn't cut it. Not that I approve of the violent habit once they become friends but I understand where it comes from.

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I'm still not a fan of Sakura, and if SakuraxNaruto is the chosen pairing, I will simply shrug, and move on. Her violence is for me a really annoying trait, but in a way, I can understand why it happens. And well, it's the anime thing with 'violence humor' pretty much.

To be fair though I think I would leave it for at least several years for anything to happen here really. Naruto has... strong personality, and at this point in time, I really doubt this is what will be part of his thinking for a while. Let him grow up, and mature a bit.

To be fair, I always liked AyamexNaruto, but I doubt it will be the case here. Although if some fillers will be canon here, it opens up lots of new options really. Like Yakumo, Isaribi or something?

Although in canon there are still some options, like Fuu (Seven Tails Jinchuuriki) or something similar, even if some of them have pretty bare-bones characterization.

And well, HinataxNaruto is overdone, so something new here would be appreciated.

That depends mostly on the time period.

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Exactly. In earlier feudal years, as I mentioned before sub-wives was a concept reasonably acceptable in their society, although most people never even considered having more than one wife for a very simple reason - they couldn't afford it. Also with the tendency to have at least several children (high mortality rates forced and hands necessary for work, as children already worked from a very young age), it forced people to balance it, or they would simply die from starvation, as they had limited amount of food.

Mostly true? Hang on, I was trying to show Daisuke being as conscientious as he could in his situation and as respectful to their feelings as well, he could be. I guess I failed?

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I see it in a way. I think it's fine the way it is, but from what I see some people are confused by it, so... shrug?

That's when you start having the individual wives giving each other time so it's not all on the husband. Seriously, it's a large family, placing everyone's emotional support on one person never ends well.

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This is true.

I agree with this.

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Yep, sex simply should be a fun activity, and not something that must be connected to the marriage per se.

It's a misconception, I suppose, but it's a rule of the Naruto setting.

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True. Kakashi mentions in the Chuunin Exam nomination that Iruka shouldn't butt in, and Kakashi tells him off that they are pretty much official soldiers now. So yeah.

I think Hisako's issue was she honestly hadn't expected it. Why? Perspective; she was hyper focused on just getting Daisuke that being forced to share didn't even cross her mind. Like, well, a lack of experience brought by lack of years. But what do I know? I just write the thing.

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Nah, this is possible. As I said before in this post - sub-wives as a concept happened, but it was rare. So her simply not thinking about it is explainable.

We'll see. I don't want to make any promises, but I have a few scenes in mind.

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The only other person I saw Hinata paired with, in VERY rare scenarios, was Kiba. I guess it may work? Anyway at this point what Hinata needs the most is genuine support.

In choosing not to decide, you have still made a choice.

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Yep. The foreknowledge gives some specific choices, and actions, that in the end will manipulate in some way, no matter what you do, or even not do. But overthinking it won't help here really, as whatever happens, I believe in the 'butterfly effect' acting in such scenarios no matter what the person with that knowledge does.

Going back to the Naruto and Hinata pairing, as an example; if this would wipe out humanity, then it becomes a case where most pragmatic people would say that there is a duty to act. However, that wasn't the case in this example, clearly. It's merely interpersonal romantic relations and the issue is further complicated by the fact that no matter how Daisuke thinks of the "healthiness" or "correctness" of their future relationship and parenting, that's really just his opinion on the subject and doesn't even take into account their happiness...which he can't know because he's not all seeing/knowing.

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I agree that it's not completely crucial, but I can also see that HinataxNaruto not being a thing may cause for example issues with the potential Pein arc, as Naruto NEEDED to snap there, or it would be game over for Konoha.

Or later on with Toneri.

But again, overthinking this may drive you nuts, as in this case some changes are inevitable. Prepare for what you need to prepare, and hope for the best.

 

[aj0413]

Why live without free will? Life is enjoyable, and even if my choices are preprogrammed lies constructed by causality, I'll still make them, because my program WILL execute.

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Wanted to respond to this:

Fundamentally, on a day to day level, I agree with this. However, i do think it's also important to be able to sit down, meditate on your life, and still find inner peace and happiness.

I kinda need the idea of free will to meet that criteria. Otherwise, it becomes me trying really hard to not think about it lest I become depressed.

also, Fulcon

Just to be clear:

Last time I think you kinda got caught up in justifying the morality of the MC or at least ensuring that he *was* morally acceptable.

Feel free to disregard all our discussions on this topic!

 

[Fulcon]

I'm still not a fan of Sakura, and if SakuraxNaruto is the chosen pairing, I will simply shrug, and move on. Her violence is for me a really annoying trait, but in a way, I can understand why it happens. And well, it's the anime thing with 'violence humor' pretty much.

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See, I had assumed that the joke was the whole point. Then I thought about it and 'no, no. She's got a point'. It's the joke happening to someone who doesn't deserve it in other IP's that's really annoying.

To be fair though I think I would leave it for at least several years for anything to happen here really. Naruto has... strong personality, and at this point in time, I really doubt this is what will be part of his thinking for a while. Let him grow up, and mature a bit.

To be fair, I always liked AyamexNaruto, but I doubt it will be the case here. Although if some fillers will be canon here, it opens up lots of new options really. Like Yakumo, Isaribi or something?

Although in canon there are still some options, like Fuu (Seven Tails Jinchuuriki) or something similar, even if some of them have pretty bare-bones characterization.

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We'll see.

And well, HinataxNaruto is overdone, so something new here would be appreciated.

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I don't like the pairing in canon, but in Fanfics, I've seen it done really, really well. But I just want to see if something else is even plausible.

I see it in a way. I think it's fine the way it is, but from what I see some people are confused by it, so... shrug?

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*sigh*

Yeah, needs a rewrite. At some point, after I've figured things out and maybe changed my mode of thinking.

Nah, this is possible. As I said before in this post - sub-wives as a concept happened, but it was rare. So her simply not thinking about it is explainable.

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Neat! I did something right!

Anyway at this point what Hinata needs the most is genuine support.

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Which would be Daisuke's seduction method (if you can call it that) of choice because, harem or no harem, he does not want to be the jackass who made everything worse by being selfish.

Pardon my french, if you please.

But overthinking it won't help here really, as whatever happens, I believe in the 'butterfly effect' acting in such scenarios no matter what the person with that knowledge does.

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Precisely.

Thank you, I appreciate this. Have a cookie.

Last time I think you kinda got caught up in justifying the morality of the MC or at least ensuring that he *was* morally acceptable.

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This is true.

But, I mean, I still want to entertain you guys so...I'll figure it out. Thanks for the support.

 

[askldjflkajskje]

I think this last chapter would be significantly improved by just cutting out the whole dreaming about harems thing. It's just like, out of nowhere, And Suddenly, Harems In Your Harem While You Harem. Almost like fate or the author is trying really hard to convince reality or the audience or themselves that this is normal, this makes sense, this is happening. Cutting out the dream part at least makes it less over the top, less blatant. I'm not recommending further rewrites, but any such semi-lucid dream sequences about doing a thing should not just so happen to be in the same chapter and same in-story day as the tyrant goes up to you and orders you to do the thing over the next decade or so.

 

[Fulcon]

I think this last chapter would be significantly improved by just cutting out the whole dreaming about harems thing. It's just like, out of nowhere, And Suddenly, Harems In Your Harem While You Harem. Almost like fate or the author is trying really hard to convince reality or the audience or themselves that this is normal, this makes sense, this is happening. Cutting out the dream part at least makes it less over the top, less blatant.

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Not wrong.

EDIT: Actually, give me a second (apologies, I started this edit after you liked my post).

Why shouldn't it be blatant? Why shouldn't Daisuke consider what he wants out of life and who he wants in his life and in what capacity? You say I'm trying to convince myself or others that it's normal and makes sense and...is that wrong?

I grew up in a culture where bigamy is considered immoral and sexist. I think we all have. Isn't it understandable to try to reassure oneself and the audience that I'm not trying to do something wrong? That I'm not trying to be a bad guy, even if it looks that way to our cultural norms?

I can certainly see an argument for making it less over the top but...I feel like I need it to be over the top for my own conscience. Just to mark a clear division, stating 'we are delving into these themes right now, you have been warned'. The daydream (if you can even call it that) is there for a reason and I feel like it does its job.