Twisted Pinwheel

[Sirrocco]

The original part of the post that created this digression was (i think) a aside about Sakura, which is completely irrelevant so far in the quest, so there is not even a reason for me or you to be mad. Let's just agree to disagree on our definitions of what is important when thinking about decisions. Gezz, the trouble i get into trying to explain my thinking.

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Hey, relax. Have a hug.

It's okay to be wrong on the internet sometimes.

It's okay to admit that you're wrong when you're wrong.

You've just gotten into a long, drawn-out argument in which everyone else involved disagreed with you (and provided cogent arguments about why the way you go about things was wrong) and finished out with a "let's just agree to disagree". That's a sign, and its one you should pay attention to.

In this particular case, it's probably a sign that you stated a few things with a bit more certainty than you actually felt early on, and then, when questioned on them, doubled down because you didn't want to be wrong. Unfortunately, much of the time when you do that, you wind up backing yourself into a corner, because the positions you espouse to defend your initial (relatively weak) stance are even more vulnerable to attack. "Let's just agree to disagree" is pretty much as weak as it gets. It means "I realize that I don't have a compelling argument, but I don't want to have to admit that I'm wrong." It's a lousy place to be, and you have my sympathy.

I'm not saying that you should admit that you're wrong here. I imagine that, as invested as you've gotten in this discussion (and you wouldn't have kept batting it back if you hadn't gotten invested) the very idea is pretty foul to you right now. Once the emotions get engaged to that level, looking back and reconsidering rationally gets to be pretty costly. From an emotional ergs standpoint, it may well not be worth it. For the next time, though, when you toss something out off the top of your head (which we all do) and someone lays into it with actual rational argument, try reconsidering your viewpoint from base principles. Actually question your starting point a bit. If you're wrong, you may be able to figure out that you're wrong before you invest too heavily in a doomed rhetorical position. If you're right, you'll get a clearer idea of the ways in which you are right, which may *also* help you avoid doomed rhetorical positions.

...and for what it's worth, in messageboards like this, you actually get more respect for being able to do the hard work of reconsidering your position from time to time than you do for trying to alpha-male your way through it.

Anyway, you have my sympathy, and I hope you find this helpful. I admit that this is somewhat patronizing, but it's also sincere. (...and for what it's worth, I come by it honestly. I am, in fact, a dad.)

 

[The Nobody]

Is there a "dislike" button on these forums? Because I didn't see any argument neither on this page nor on previous ones, but I did see people making each their own statements with increasing heat and increasingly elaborate explanations. Maybe I couldn't parse the context in which those statements were related?

What I'm afraid of is that people are going to start an actual argument, about who lost or didn't lose an argument. But, for what it's worth, the post above is actually kinda calming and doesn't sound as jerk-ish as others. So maybe it doesn't really deserve a dislike.

Anyway, on a more worthy topic, I have a question for the regulars of Chibi-Reaper's quests. How many are in Naruto setting, and what other settings did he use?

 

[SCO]

Funny enough, i still don't think i'm wrong. Chibi may or may not adopt the standard mechanic of chakra coils and stuff like that, and my personal fanon of its mechanical implications may not be relevant, but it sure is logical, so i'm not wrong for letting it influence my votes in any way in my mind. I'm just agreeing that the 'disagreement' is supremely pointless since no one wants to change their mind; presumably because of a hate of having 'fanon' on stories (like it's avoidable HA) so any more is useless. I've said it before, and i'll probably say it in the future in other forums, canon and fanon have a unavoidable relationship in how people think of the settings and the second bleeds into the first because it's about its blindspots and is probably more important for that thinking in most settings.

This whole previous page was basically me say: hey i think we may be able to do 'X' neat thing because canon indicates 'Y' from 'Z'. And everyone else going 'that's fanon, only holy canon can be used' and me going 'WTF happened to make inductive reasoning not valid on Naruto, and why the extreme reaction' and 'why can't we test it'.

 

[Bobs Beard]

Funny enough, i still don't think i'm wrong.

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Generally speaking, when you have a plethora of people disagreeing with you - more people than agree with you, at the least - then that's your cue to reassess your stance, as all that disagreement (again, usually) means something.

To get a bit more specific past arguably patronizing-sounding commentary, I'm a bit concerned that while those who decry your stance can and do reference precedent with the very QM who runs this quest, times where things mirrored their stance's expectations and all that, yet you... are doing nothing of the sort. You speak of how fanon and canon are so often inter-meshed (I certainly won't argue that), but have no specific examples of how that's true for this particular QM. Regardless of how prevalent a given thing is, if it's not being evidenced in the area wherein you're talking about expecting to see it (IE, this quest or the QM's past quests), then usually that means that mis-attribution is taking place.

I don't suppose you feel like you have any examples of where Chibi actually used fanon, however reasonable one might feel said fanon is, do you?

Because barring that... I guess I'm confused as to why you feel that canon/fanon inter-meshing, as a trend, is at all relevant or applicable here.

 

[SCO]

Oh, it's much more relevant in story blindspots usually. Because of irrational character decisions need to be justified (like Itachi... everything) but it's not relevant here like that yet at least.

But i was talking originally about if it's possible to copy sealless jutsus by having very good control, very good memory and the ability to see tenketsu and chakra flows and how that relates to the Guy ability which is sealless.
Now, i'm not opposed to how the vote went (using the byugukan on Guy). I'm thinking it's not enough because the girl only has 1/3 the puzzle (tenketsu) without perfect memory and we have the other 2/3 without a way to coordinate it all (much less that sealless jutsu aside).

I'm unsure how these remarks could arouse the rage of the ages against fanon. But ... i wasn't going to take that stuff lying down i'll admit. Thus the long treatise about fanon vs canon and how using a inductive reasoning fanon/headcanon is not actually wrong avoidable (if we figure out a way to test it of course, which i admit i didn't emphasize because i couldn't think of alternatives). If it makes you all feel better substitute 'fanon' for 'stuff we have to test' (i'm not even the first to call it fanon so that blindsided me. Argument by association?).

 

[Bobs Beard]

Oh, it's much more relevant in story usually.

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Right, usually - which, again, means nothing for this specific instance.

Because of irrational character decisions need to be justified (like Itachi... everything) but it's not relevant here like that yet at least.

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Okay, you acknowledge that the fanon/canon inter-mesh isn't actually verified as applicable here, yet.

But i was talking originally about if it's possible to copy sealless jutsus by having very good control, very good memory and the ability to see tenketsu and chakra flows and how that relates to the Guy ability.

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See you say that, but if you look at the actual wording you used in your prior posts, that's not true, regardless of your intentions - observe:

You already know that this probably isn't going to work since Neij never was able to figure it out right (either in canon or any fanfic i've read and i've read a lot)? Not that he was probably trying of course. More like cursing that he couldn't turn off his eyes on time probably.

My suggestion is that if it's internal chakra manipulation and it's at a level that it doesn't require godlike skills like the gates or nature chakra (but it probably is), it's probably the same as the seal-less jutsus that require perfect memory and perfect control of chakra flows to do without hand-seals...

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Right here, you present your by-definition opinion, as being something akin to reality, rather than just your opinion - yes, you used the word 'probably' rather liberally, but your general sentence structure still reads as if you're saying this stance of yours is true, rather than 'could be applicable'. That's a critical difference.

If it isn't stated on canon how ninja drop handseals, i'm going with the fanon explanation that makes sense of course.

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Here you outright state how, in absence of absolutely clear-cut canon you will adopt fanon explanations you feel are reasonable, and treat them as true. That is not at all the same thing as suggesting that such a thing might be true in this quest's specific circumstances - it reads as if you're saying that this is the 'right' way to make use of canon and the gaps therein - a far more contentious stance than the alternative.

Now i'm unsure how these remarks could arouse the rage of the ages against fanon.

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It didn't - rather, multiple people got concerned enough they commented, when by your wording choice you presented yourself as if fanon/reasoning to fill canon data gaps should be accepted, rather than can be accepted.

But ... i wasn't going to take that stuff lying down i'll admit.

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Which is core to the problem at hand - if you can call this circuitous back and forth a problem, that is.

Thus the long treatise about fanon vs canon.

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And that's the thing; this whole diatribe from you is irrelevant. No matter how valid your stance about easily inferenced fanon may be from a common sense standpoint, that means absolutely zilch when you're attempting to apply it to a specific person's quest, yet have no actual examples/citations to show that it does apply to such a specific context.

The basic intent of this post - and indeed all my post exchanges with you on this general topic - is that regardless of how you're intending to convey your stance, what matters most is how you actually structure said stance and convey it to others. That is, your wording has lead many quest participants to feel that you're trying to claim your canon/fanon stance is objectively 'right' - nevermind your intent. As is often the case online, all that really matters is what words you type out and what they mean to their readers - so there's only so much you can claim you were presenting your own opinions and ideas, when those that read it generally felt you were being far more absolute about things.

tl;dr: Before you defend a post you made that's not getting the response you expect, actually read those posts and consider what the wording therein looks like, to a not-you person who does not know what's going on in your noggin.



And since I'm similarly rather done with what's increasingly looking like a pointless exchange; how tall is Mio, compared to others her age? Average? Taller/shorter? Whatever the answer, I'm reasonably certain it's something that'd be pertinent to how Mio exercises bravado with her classmates.

 

[Plotvitalnpc]

And since I'm similarly rather done with what's increasingly looking like a pointless exchange; how tall is Mio, compared to others her age? Average? Taller/shorter? Whatever the answer, I'm reasonably certain it's something that'd be pertinent to how Mio exercises bravado with her classmates.

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Chibi-Reaper?

I mean, she WAS badly drained by her sharingan for years, so that might've simulated the effects of poor childhood nutrition and negatively impacted her growth rate.

 

[SCO]

Sure man, i probably jumped the gun on the handseals being from chakra control and memory without testing (because let's face it... it makes sense and i can't think of a nice alternative). The Neij thing was just a remark that he never learned it along with almost everyone else so it was indicative, but your remark that he didn't want to learn is pretty in character so i dropped that argument (although i still believe that the byugukan is not likely enough)
But sure, we need to test it. I'd suggest focusing on the face tenketsu because of the infamous smile and eyebrows.

:warning: 'headcanon' below :warning:
Also, now that i think about it, it's a shame that Rock Lee is not already training with him, because that guy is a much softer target to extract information. That he was able to learn it (i think i read that in canon...) indicates that the amount of chakra needed is insignificant, or not needed at all for obvious reasons.

 

[Bobs Beard]

Also, now that i think about it, it's a shame that Rock Lee is not already training with him, because that guy is a much softer target to extract information. That he was able to learn it (i think i read that in canon...) indicates that the amount of chakra needed is probably insignificant, or not needed at all for obvious reasons.

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Does Rock Lee's learning indicate that, though?

I could be entirely wrong, but I sure seem to recall it being a repeated issue of it being fanon that Rock Lee's got a less than normal amount of chakra/has crippled or otherwise malformed chakra coils or the like, and the only canon data on his problem's nature is that he's got hilariously shit talent at many an aspect of Chakra use, but still has said Chakra - and said Chakra isn't indicated as being 'less' than what a normal ninja in his position might have.

I would of course be happy to be proved wrong with a canonical citation.

 

[Plotvitalnpc]

Chibi-Reaper?

I mean, she WAS badly drained by her sharingan for years, so that might've simulated the effects of poor childhood nutrition and negatively impacted her growth rate.

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...though at the same time, chakra strain ultimately leads to more chakra capacity, doesn't it?

Hm...could be that at an early age it can be like damaging your muscles working out too early...

Or maybe this'll be one of the Naruto variant settings where they take the 'mental and physical energy' thing seriously, and the only way to up your actual capacity is to increase the quantity of your physical and mental energies (physical for substance, mental for form) or at least one of them, depending on what jutsu type you're using and what your present balance is...
and that'd mean strengthening your body and mind respectively.

 

[SCO]

I believe his disability is mentioned as 'damaged chakra coils'. For all we know his control can be very good, because of absurdly tiny reserves, as the opposite coin of Naruto. That he's not dead indicates he produces at least some though.

edit: checked the wiki and this first part might be pure fanon... it's not mentioned there what they call his problem...

 

[1986ctcel]

I believe his disability is mentioned as 'damaged chakra coils'. For all we know his control can be very good, because of absurdly tiny reserves, as the opposite coin of Naruto. That he's not dead indicates he produces at least some though.

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Nope. When the technique on how to properly mold and combine your mental and physical energies was explained to him by Ebisu, Naruto aced it on his first try. Big chakra reserves equaling crappy control and small chakra reserves equaling good/perfect control is complete fanon

 

[Bobs Beard]

I believe his disability is mentioned as 'damaged chakra coils'.

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Sorry to seem like I'm picking on you - but again, check yo' fanon.

Per the actual manga pages about Rock Lee's situation (chapter 84, for reference), there is nothing that specifically notes his problem as 'damage', to 'coils' or anything else - it's all about talent and general performance. The same statement is true of databook commentary on Lee.

edit: checked the wiki and this first part might be pure fanon... it's not mentioned there what they call his problem...

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Well at least you did check your fanon assumption, so that's nice! Still, it'd be nicer if you checked it before posting about it, but hey, we all have room to improve.

Nope. When the technique on how to properly mold and combine your mental and physical energies was explained to him by Ebisu, Naruto aced it on his first try. Big chakra reserves equaling crappy control and small chakra reserves equaling good/perfect control is complete fanon

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A great example of why I'm somewhat extra leery of fanon in Naruto; the setting is so rife with it amongst its consumers.

 

[Plotvitalnpc]

Nope. When the technique on how to properly mold and combine your mental and physical energies was explained to him by Ebisu, Naruto aced it on his first try. Big chakra reserves equaling crappy control and small chakra reserves equaling good/perfect control is complete fanon

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Yep. Naruto's issue with chakra control was never that it was like a firehose that overpowered jutsus...
It was that he was ludicrously bad at molding chakra AND utilizing it.

He made too much chakra, yes, but he /also/ used too little. 5/3 of the needs produced...1/3 used. Underpowered jutsu and wasted energy, because mixed chakra apparently can't be retained or unmixed.

 

[SCO]

Actually disregard that post above (well, the part about 'damaged chakra coils')... it's another unclear part. In the anime at least he can use tree walking so he at least can 'mould' chakra. Logically his problem is either on his reserves for ninjutsu being much worse than Sakura and large mixing ability of spiritual energy and physical energy not being necessary for the minimum chakra for tree walking or reinforcement, or something else going wrong during ninjutsu formation (tenketsu?). In the end, it seems he gave up on external ninjutsu.

 

[Plotvitalnpc]

In the end, even the idea that you should see gains in your chakra capacity from draining yourself chakra wise seems a little odd given the explanation of what chakra is...

It's composed from physical and mental energies at the moment you're using it, physical energies providing 'substance' and mental energies providing 'shape'. Logically using chakra is not the way to increase your supply of it... "If qualities of Heaven are what you desire, acquire wisdom and knowledge to take your mind higher. If Earthly abilities are what you lack, train your body in the fields and prepare to attack. When both Heaven and Earth are opened together, the path of peril will revert to the righteous path forever. This person is the secret way... that guides us on from this place today."

The means by which you increase the amount of substance you can give your chakra (some would call this the quantity, but this is not accurate for all jutsus) is buffing up your physical energy, by strengthening your body and constitution in general. The means by which you increase the shape you can give it (your control, but also your chakra suitability/quantity for purposes for genjutsu and yin release) is by strengthening your mind. Yin put into chakra provides it with the stability and shape you desire for it to have, and yang gives it the weight you desire in the jutsu.

Tertiary to this, possibly, would be whatever limits there are to the amount of chakra you're skilled enough to mold/keep molded at once, and your ability to accurately mix it and retain it in desired proportions.

 

[SCO]

Are you sure that the technique to mold requires great chakra control (well at least without redirection, which we know he had trouble with tree walking... well among outliers like Sakura and Sasuke at least, maybe it's normal). It's stated that the great difficulty of medics is actually manifesting spiritual energy, so it seems the mixing is the default not? Just because Naruto is able to produce a lot doesn't seem indicative to me....

 

[Nanimani]

Are you sure that the technique to mold requires great chakra control. It's stated that the great difficulty of medics is actually having pure spiritual chakra, so it seems the mixing is the default not?

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Mixing may be automatic, but it doesn't follow that the mix will always be 1:1 mixture. Especially when you have more of one than the other.

 

[SCO]

Ok that's convincing if that's not automatic then. So we can't conclude anything about Rock Lee chakra amount from his control (which may or may not be good).

 

[Plotvitalnpc]

Are you sure that the technique to mold requires great chakra control. It's stated that the great difficulty of medics is actually having manifesting spiritual energy, so it seems the mixing is the default not?

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Well, if you're neither a genius at molding able to produce chakra that doesn't match your own natural ratio easily, nor far stronger in yin energy than yang, you'll have a hard time producing chakra sufficiently yin heavy to actually manage a jutsu that does something as complex as heal someone properly. That being said, some yang would definitely be needed for that, 'cause you're trying for a real physical effect to it, not just make a genjutsu.

There are a few components to chakra control under this logic: your skill at molding chakra, so you can make the proper amount, your skill at putting it into the jutsu...and a combination of 'your default chakra mix's proximity to the ratio the jutsu calls for' and 'your ability to produce chakra in ratios other than what comes natural to you'. ...Also, your ability to not run out of one component or the other.

The focus on spirit-heavy medics would be good for making it easy to train them, but it also means they won't have much energy to put into healing people. After all, you're just grabbing people who're so far towards intelligence/so lacking in constitution that they naturally match the necessary amount of yin to control the healing process. They're probably way short on yang!
...Though the opposite direction would run out of the yin necessary to keep the healing under control faster,

 

[SCO]

Makes sense. Kabuto is probably in a extreme of yang medic ability. Maybe he gets mentality fatigued with that regeneration jutsu of his and has to stop using it? Though his control is undoubtedly phenomenal to be able to use it in combat (unless he's cheating on the ratios somehow).

 

[Bobs Beard]

I feel one of the biggest reasons that people have issues with fanon/canon lore for Naruto, is that the story as a whole is rather like Bleach, in that the majority of the examples we see 'on screen', are 'exception to the rule' types, rather than 'this is the rule' types.

That is, we see oodles of how this super badass breaks conventions, or how that incredible prodigy can do things others can't, or how this determinator type guy actually can power through shit that would normally end them, or how these guys won the spiritual lottery, or other such things rather than 'how do normal ninja handle this, how's it work for average peeps', and all that jazz.

 

[Plotvitalnpc]

I feel one of the biggest reasons that people have issues with fanon/canon lore for Naruto, is that the story as a whole is rather like Bleach, in that the majority of the examples we see 'on screen', are 'exception to the rule' types, rather than 'this is the rule' types.

That is, we see oodles of how this super badass breaks conventions, or how that incredible prodigy can do things others can't, or how this determinator type guy actually can power through shit that would normally end them, or how these guys won the spiritual lottery, or other such things rather than 'how do normal ninja handle this, how's it work for average peeps', and all that jazz.

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And the few times we get explanations of how it apparently works, it doesn't really match how the matters are treated later.

 

[SCO]

Well... that's why you need fanon... paper over the cracks or ignore them or use one explanation here and another there, which is better?

I personally like when a story deconstructs or presents a alternative hostile viewpoint to a 'standard canon character interpretation' myself, so it's not only filling in blanks that's useful though. Contradiction or justified conflict has its uses (especially when the canon/fanon tries to canonize the character... such as Naruto or Minato or Hashirama blergh).

 

[Bobs Beard]

Well... that's why you need fanon... paper over the cracks or ignore them or use one explanation here and another there, which is better?

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Again, cautionary note; it'd be wiser to state that this is why fanon can be useful, rather than that this is why you need fanon - the former statement doesn't assert fanon's rightness and thereby avoids straying into opinion, while the latter...

I personally like when a story deconstructs or presents a alternative hostile viewpoint to a 'standard canon character interpretation' myself, so it's not only filling in blanks that's useful though. Contradiction or justified conflict has its uses (especially when the canon/fanon tries to canonize the character... such as Naruto or Minato or Hashirama blergh).

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It does... but it also generates misunderstandings like the minor kerfuffle that took place here with far greater frequency than more clearcut canonical mechanics - like say, settings where Warriors always and without exception work this way, and Clerics always work that way, and so on.

So while I'd agree it certainly is fun for the engaging discussion it can encourage, I fairly frequently fret over the near-inevitable confusion that comes right alongside those discussion prompts as people misconstrue thing X or Y as true, rather than reasonable-relative-to-an-undefined-point-in-canon.

 

[SCO]

You need something akin to fanon in order to make stories and quests using the same characters or mechanics. In quests particularly, the voters can (try) to test everything against the QM before committing to a 'fanon', but the QM almost has to have or create one, when the voters actually try to investigate it or try it out (often the same)...

So no, i think you do need it, unless you want to reiterate canon in slightly different words and order for the characters and narrative (and in a quest it already needs AU elements for obvious reasons related to choice and mechanics investigation).

much ado about nothing obviously. Trying to make a story without thinking about papering over the cracks of the original work or extrapolating stuff from it is not how you make a story, but a bad copy imo (and you'll fail, because bias and unconscious 'fanon' will always shine through).
I may have been overeager about having mechanics proposed without testing, but you seem actively hostile to the word fanon to the point you use it as a almost pejorative when it encompasses stuff like 'inductive explanations, character dissonance explanations' and other useful things that are fundamental to a story not being dissonant or tiresome. Frankly, it's a bit scary.

 

[Bobs Beard]

Sure... but that doesn't - in regards to a given quest or story - have anything to do with your chosen fanon, or my chosen fanon, or anyone else's fanon-based headcanon; it just means some form of fanon has to exist.

Hence why I'm relatively hardline about decrying people proffering their own favored fanon as absolutely anything but precisely that - QMs/authors can and regularly do wildly defy expectations in terms of how they answer this or that canonically unexplained bit of minutae, and I both relish and respect their right to do so.

So please, join me in letting them run wild, free from the shackles of us superimposing our own views on their creativity... or some other chummy pseudo-inspirational nonsense.



Aaaaand now back to something more productive; Shinobi footwear - what exactly is that made of? You'd think Mio'd know, and many of the possible answers bring about interesting anachronistic issues/potential gaps in terms of what canon's explained. Is it really a molded, modern rubber or other polymer? Some strange, chakra-derived heavily processed material that is otherwise mundane - like jutsu'd leathers? How's the binding handled - is the lack of visible stitching simply an issue of detail-difficulty, or evidence they're either solid pieces or directly bonded? How do they handle wear, tear and general damage - even when Ninjas have had their clothes rendered quite ragged, their footwear generally trends towards being whole. Is it a similar material to Anbu armor stuff? Why is that just on feet, and not fullbody for everyone?

...Could Mio get them in other colors, including - but not limited to - gold, or would she have to try and repaint them?

So many questions, no actual answers - ideal speculatin' grounds, that.

 

[SCO]

At least it's not the traditional japanese footwear.Which seem a fantastically bad idea for tree ninjas (instead of actual historical ninjas, which blended in 99,5% of the time).

Although i've seen images of Kakashi with that around. Which seems a suicidally bad idea.


edit: actually they look like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jika-tabi

invented in the 20th century eh. More setting technological schizophrenia, although i suppose the hard resin/rubber is possible without much (plastic without crude is also possible with the right science... i guess).

 

[Plotvitalnpc]

Basically, my own interpretation of chakra mechanics comes from the following in-series discussions of Chakra: Sakura's pre-wave talk on it, the poem by Hashirama in the chuunin exams, Iruka's lecture at that time, Ebisu's explanation of Naruto's chakra control problems, and the various bits of info on what techniques are associated with yin or yang release.

Those are the things that make me think, regardless of how inconsistent or in some cases just impossible to compare the displayed mechanics are with the ones described in those things, that dis be how chakra was meant to work, especially before Kishi decided on the 'oh, it was a power from a magical fucking fruit' thing.

...if I were going to adapt that theory to this quest, which I don't feel a real drive to, I'd say that the activation of doujutsus and similar kekkei genkais either molds chakra in it's own desired ratio (insomuch as it can adjust the person's natural ratio towards the desired one) for optimal running, or simply feeds off of unmixed physical energy when not using actual techniques with 'em. The proper formula for how a sharingan works is baked into the sharingan, after all! You won't do anything helpful by trying to tell your eyes how they work with your mental energy.

It'd take more work to properly round it out and adjust it though, and wouldn't make my theory any more true of this quest. It's little more than something I'd use in my own Naruto quest if I ran one.

 

[```]

I fear that the sheer concentrated fabulousness unleashed by two Great Beasts getting into a pose off with each other may start to unleash kurama-clan tier reality warping, and poor Saki is right there at ground zero! No choice but to bear witness with those insightful eyes! GRANT US EYES GRANT US EYES