With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[RichardWhereat]

The Hellenic religion is not dead, like the Norse, it maintains followers.

 

[Stsword]

I know that we don't get exact details, but my understanding was the human belief helped the Gods develop from the Dream, maintain their integrity as a magical construct, and grow in power.

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In Vertigo.

Vertigo and the mainstream DC universe were separate universes until the flashpoint merger.

In the mainstream universe the gods gained their power from the exact same as the New Gods- The Source.

It was a plot point in the Genesis event, also in Wonder Woman in which Cronos and the Titans attacked others, including the Hindu gods, and the Silver City for their piece of the pie.

Edit: Rather worship was a separate source of power. Darkseid got the Greek and Roman gods to separate so they wouldn't gain all the energy from the Greek and Roman worshippers, as an example.

 

[Vaermina]

I know that we don't get exact details, but my understanding was the human belief helped the Gods develop from the Dream, maintain their integrity as a magical construct, and grow in power.

Click to shrink...

In Vertigo.

Vertigo and the mainstream DC universe were separate universes until the flashpoint merger.

In the mainstream universe the gods gained their power from the exact same as the New Gods- The Source.

It was a plot point in the Genesis event, also in Wonder Woman in which Cronos and the Titans attacked others, including the Hindu gods, and the Silver City for their piece of the pie.

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Pretty much.

In actual DC the Gods/Titans of Earth were born from the Godwave and their power comes from The Source.

 

[0zymandias]

The Hellenic religion is not dead, like the Norse, it maintains followers.

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Yeah there's like some 2000 followers in Modern Greece and some 100k that have some sort of interest. I have no idea what kind conversion rate human belief is to actual power but to compare, the Abrahamic faiths have some 5 billion worshippers. If human faith is a defining factor then Zeus should rate somewhat equal to minor demon lord, if that.

My interpretation of DC gods is that they have a base power level determined by how powerful their parents are, how well they practise, if they're blessed/connected to a greater power and then that's added to by the number of followers they have. Death gods switch from worshippers to how many dead are in their realm. I think if Hades wanted to he could probably go toe to toe with Mammon and might have been able to defeat Nabu if they were fighting in the Underworld.

 

[Stsword]

My interpretation of DC gods is that they have a base power level determined by how powerful their parents are, how well they practise, if they're blessed/connected to a greater power and then that's added to by the number of followers they have. Death gods switch from worshippers to how many dead are in their realm. I think if Hades wanted to he could probably go toe to toe with Mammon and might have been able to defeat Nabu if they were fighting in the Underworld.

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DC's interpretation of "worship" is rather liberal.

Every war is an act of worship for Ares, whether the combatants have heard of him or not.

A speech by Orion actually indicated the New Gods are the same.

 

[0zymandias]

DC's interpretation of "worship" is rather liberal.

Every war is an act of worship for Ares, whether the combatants have heard of him or not.

A speech by Orion actually indicated the New Gods are the same.

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OK, let's say that character knows what he's talking about and that that's in the same universe/continuity and that it hasn't been retconed but it doesn't really answer anything how does that get broken down though? Is it every war an act of worship or just Greek ones, how does that work with other War gods? How does that get split with War gods of a different pantheon? If worship is irrelevant then why do gods fade or even care about worshippers?
You've not solved anything just added more questions

 

[Duke Long]

Yeah there's like some 2000 followers in Modern Greece and some 100k that have some sort of interest. I have no idea what kind conversion rate human belief is to actual power but to compare, the Abrahamic faiths have some 5 billion worshippers. If human faith is a defining factor then Zeus should rate somewhat equal to minor demon lord, if that.

My interpretation of DC gods is that they have a base power level determined by how powerful their parents are, how well they practise, if they're blessed/connected to a greater power and then that's added to by the number of followers they have. Death gods switch from worshippers to how many dead are in their realm. I think if Hades wanted to he could probably go toe to toe with Mammon and might have been able to defeat Nabu if they were fighting in the Underworld.

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For the purposes of this story, I'm pretty sure you're wrong about some of that. Firstly, deities like the Hellenic pantheon are created by faith manipulating the thaumosphere and maybe the Dream or whatever, and they get their power from being magical. On the other hand, angels get power from the Source, which is a totally different power source. Not sure how it works with demons, and I'm not sure how the angels and demons came into existence (I guess something similar to the other deities but with added Source).

Also, in this story, Zoat has said that although deities are formed by faith, they don't need it to survive or even maintain their power, and they aren't affected in any way by their worshippers (as far as I can tell they just have worshippers because they like it). In fact, deities can actually be stronger if they have fewer worshippers, since they don't have to spend as much on giving out blessings or whatever. Zoat has said that Hades will actually get marginally weaker from taking in all of the aliens that Paul gave him, because he spends a bit of power on making their souls properly conscious.

I think Zoat's take on how divine power doesn't dissipate without worship is based on a Hellblazer where an American death god still has all its power despite having literally no worshippers, though I could be totally wrong.

 

[Pinklestia]

Didn't Zeus steal the power of his father? The Titan Cronos?

 

[Stsword]

Didn't Zeus steal the power of his father? The Titan Cronos?

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The domains don't match up.

Cronos is a deity of agriculture, and historically was still worshipped as such after the Titanomachy.

When merged with Chronos, which has been happening since the time of the Ancient Greeks, he's a deity of time.

There's speculation that these myths merging is an inspiration for the Grim Reaper- scythes are harvest tools, and everyone's time runs out eventually.

Uranos would be the one whose domain matches, being the primordial embodying the sky, husband-brother to Gaia, father of the titans.

 

[Chaoswind]

Yeah there's like some 2000 followers in Modern Greece and some 100k that have some sort of interest. I have no idea what kind conversion rate human belief is to actual power but to compare, the Abrahamic faiths have some 5 billion worshippers. If human faith is a defining factor then Zeus should rate somewhat equal to minor demon lord, if that.

My interpretation of DC gods is that they have a base power level determined by how powerful their parents are, how well they practise, if they're blessed/connected to a greater power and then that's added to by the number of followers they have. Death gods switch from worshippers to how many dead are in their realm. I think if Hades wanted to he could probably go toe to toe with Mammon and might have been able to defeat Nabu if they were fighting in the Underworld.

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There are literal cults in Asia that are twenty times bigger than the helenic religion current membership numbers. The religion is dead. It's at most a cult.

 

[RichardWhereat]

Yeah there's like some 2000 followers in Modern Greece and some 100k that have some sort of interest.

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And that's without even the evidence of the Greek Gods that DC humans have. There's bound to be way more believers in DC.

 

[Stsword]

Zoat made the Atlanteans Hellenists in this story.

Atlantis was a continent that sank beneath the waves, so in this story there could be oodles of Hellenists.

It's not like the Atlanteans didn't have 71% of the Earth to spread out in.

 

[Bud-E]

Zoat made the Atlanteans Hellenists in this story.

Atlantis was a continent that sank beneath the waves, so in this story there could be oodles of Hellenists.

It's not like the Atlanteans didn't have 71% of the Earth to spread out in.

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Arent's the YJ Atlanteans helenist in canon as well?

 

[Vaermina]

Didn't Zeus steal the power of his father? The Titan Cronos?

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Nope, but he did make a magical pact on Cronos's corpse with Poseidon and Hades which is what keeps the Titan's dead.

 

[Stsword]

Arent's the YJ Atlanteans helenist in canon as well?

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Never stated one way or another. YJ as a rule is really tightly focused.

Ocean Master used the Trident of Neptune (a Roman god), and the city states have shout outs such as Posiedonis, Tritonis, Neptunus, and Crastinus, but one can make similar claims in the comics in which Atlanteans worship their own gods.

The YJ writers added King Sha'ark, named after a Hawaiian shark god. Not very hellenist. King of an Atlantean city state likewise named after said Hawaiian shark god, also not very hellenistic. But then again Atlantis has a king with an Irish name and a brother with a Norse name

And in later seasons it was revealed that Atlantis sank about 8 thousand years before Ancient Greece began, and somehow I think the Romans and Greeks lacked a lot of amphibious missionaries.

 

[Tzeentch]

Hecate.

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In her singular aspect, or their more potent multiple aspect?

 

[Darko]

For the purposes of this story, I'm pretty sure you're wrong about some of that. Firstly, deities like the Hellenic pantheon are created by faith manipulating the thaumosphere and maybe the Dream or whatever, and they get their power from being magical. On the other hand, angels get power from the Source, which is a totally different power source. Not sure how it works with demons, and I'm not sure how the angels and demons came into existence (I guess something similar to the other deities but with added Source).

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The Angeks were created by the Presence, who may either be an extremely powerful theurge or an avatar of the Source in this story.

The demons were originally created by the First of the Fallen when he altered his environment with his nature and other beings started sprouting.

Later when humans started coming to Hell after dying, they began to spread out and change the nature of the place, and so new types of demons were born.

Also, in this story, Zoat has said that although deities are formed by faith, they don't need it to survive or even maintain their power, and they aren't affected in any way by their worshippers (as far as I can tell they just have worshippers because they like it). In fact, deities can actually be stronger if they have fewer worshippers, since they don't have to spend as much on giving out blessings or whatever. Zoat has said that Hades will actually get marginally weaker from taking in all of the aliens that Paul gave him, because he spends a bit of power on making their souls properly conscious.

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Yeah, in this story gods don't depend on worship for survival, but they do depend on it for being able to use their full power.

Basically the more worshippers they have, the easier they can affect the mortal world.

Like Paul mentioned, without help from worshippers, Zeus couldn't create a stronger avatar.

And if I remember correctly it was mentioned that with their worshippers a god could change their domain.

Didn't Zeus steal the power of his father? The Titan Cronos?

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Paul speculated this.

He also thought that he may be plugged on to several other Titans.

The domains don't match up.

Cronos is a deity of agriculture, and historically was still worshipped as such after the Titanomachy.

When merged with Chronos, which has been happening since the time of the Ancient Greeks, he's a deity of time.

There's speculation that these myths merging is an inspiration for the Grim Reaper- scythes are harvest tools, and everyone's time runs out eventually.

Uranos would be the one whose domain matches, being the primordial embodying the sky, husband-brother to Gaia, father of the titans.

Click to shrink...

I don't think there's anything to indicate the Olympian and the Titan need to have matching domains to be able to take their power.

Yeah, Oceanus and Poseidon are both water gods, but Hades and Erebus are a death god and a darkness god respectively.

Zoat made the Atlanteans Hellenists in this story.

Atlantis was a continent that sank beneath the waves, so in this story there could be oodles of Hellenists.

It's not like the Atlanteans didn't have 71% of the Earth to spread out in.

Click to shrink...

Arent's the YJ Atlanteans helenist in canon as well?

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It has never been stated in cankn, though it is true true in this story.

But they seem to just worship the Roman gods.

 

[Ngamer11]

"But Major Atom is a military officer. And Accomplished Perfect Physician is Chinese."

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Found an error in the story only thread. That should say 'Captain Atom'. He's only called major in his civilian identity.

 

[Mr Zoat]

27th October 2012
06:49 GMT +3

As we travel, Canis looks northward, staring at the area of verdant growth and the near-blinding glow at the centre.

"What is that?"

"Hades's wife is a goddess called Persephone. She's the daughter of Demeter and loves living greenery."

"Is she related to your plant goddess?"

"Euanthe would be her aunt. And I don't think that Euanthe is technically a goddess. It's not just a measure of power, it's about how their metaphysique is structured." I frown thoughtfully. "Unless you're telling me otherwise?"

"If a god can be new and not be a New God, I can accept that power does not make a thing a god."

"Can they?"

"Can-?" He jerks his head around, frowning. "Yes, of course they can. A New God joins to an aspect of Darkseid's divinity. Old Gods arise directly from the Dream, and their spawn gain their power from much the same place."

"So there's no link?"

"There are some… Vague similarities, but no more so than there would be with some ancient sorcerers. Do you not know her?"

"No. For plant life, I'd either go to Euanthe, Swamp Thing or Gaea herself. Do you need to speak with her?"

"I find inspiration in all places. But I have no special need to speak with her. Unless she has some relationship with Zeus we can avoid the place entirely."

"She's Zeus's daughter. But… Ah, I don't think they're on good terms."

"Is that not good for us?"

"I also don't think she's powerful or influential enough to affect matters one way or the other."

He nods. "Glory to the weak, for in having no strength of their own they shall not be tempted to act aught but the will of Darkseid."

…

"Yes."

I remember the typical version of the myth from Earth Prime, but Hades doesn't seem like the sort to slip a few pomegranate seed roofies in someone's drink. The Amazon version mentions the seeds, but dwells more on Hades's wickedness in not consulting with or appeasing Demeter. I still don't see how Demeter's response of 'starve the world' could be considered anything other than completely deranged, but I… Don't know if the mythological version is what actually happened. Hades admitted that he's changed a lot since the old days, but I imagine that it's a sore point with him and I haven't wanted to push it.

Before us, there's a village coming up. Or possibly a town? Order of service gets a bit confused in situations where the locals don't need to eat and a temple would be redundant. Hecate used to live in a relatively modest home tended by bound shades of those who joined her cult in life. Now… Now they're all bound to Erebos and like its other denizens they aren't 'shades' in the traditional mindless dead sense any longer.

Given Hecate's threat potential and the fact that most Atlanteans are hostile to the idea of gods, I haven't felt the need to make contact with her. I wonder-.

…

Is that a water park?

I watch as a woman -an Amazon by the look of her hair and skin- grins with delight as she shoots out of the end of a water slide to the laughter of those already in the plunge pool below.

Okay…

Well, I… I imagine that it's all their own work. Erebos is actually well-served with rivers, it's just that the titan's magic tends to give them unpleasant arcane effects. I… Assume that the witches have learned to filter them. Which does leave the question of what's powering the pumps. The slides are made of wood, smooth polished, with metal scaffolding. Nothing plastic or synthetic. I guess that the wood comes from Persephone's woodland, and they… Mine the metal themselves?

There are swimming pools, some for training and some for more casual swimming. Seven slides of various designs… No rubber rings-. Because no rubber. Wrong continent. A possible avenue for trade? They are wearing swimming costumes, which makes me somewhat more comfortable, styles varying between Victorian to modern. Ages range from-. Another Themyscira flashback, newly adult to mature adult with no children or old people.

"Hey!" A woman in a lifeguard chair points at us as we get closer. "Who ordered concubines?!"

Or men.

"I'm sorry, we're not concubines." She moues in pantomimed disappointment, but I see the purple glow-dust that gathers around her left hand. "Could you please point us in the direction of Lady Hecate? It's a bit urgent."

We've attracted the attention of quite a few women, though we're only being watched because we're marginally interesting rather than with any real hostility. When you're already dead, personal safety is much less of a concern. Or maybe they're dog people.

"So you're not concubines, or you've already been hired?"

"So we're not concubines-"

Canis shrugs his shoulders. "I have no objection to being a concubine, if it aids the mission."

"-and I need to speak with Lady Hecate on the subject of thaumaturgy and Olympian politics."

We reach her lifeguard chair, Brut taking a sniff at a puddle of water splashed onto the side of the pool. The woman on guard duty straightens up slightly now that's it's apparent that we're here for a serious purpose.

"Do you have an offering?"

I raise my left hand and fabricate an inflatable obstacle course, depositing it in the middle of the fun pool.

"Yes. Arcane knowledge, artefacts, and-."

"Hey Paul!" Eris waves as she heads in our direction, wearing a sarong. And nothing else. I bet she was wearing a swimming suit, saw me and then chucked it in the-.

Yes, there it is.

"Eris, good to see you. This will save me time."

"Oh?" She raises her eyebrows. "I don't get a 'Lady' Eris?"

"You're not a lady."

"Eh." She looks at Canis for a moment, then appears to dismiss him. "Are you up to something?"

"At the moment we're just gathering information."

"So 'yes'. You know, I don't think I really committed last time."

"Your help may well be quite useful. Or we might end up resolving things peacefully and-."

"Bghhahaha!" Eris hunches as she splurts with laughs, the action clearly taking her by surprise. She then reaches up with her right hand and half pat and half slaps me around the face. "'Peacef-. Have you met you?"

"Are you going to take us to Lady Hecate or should I just ignore you?"

"Oh, I'll take you. This feels like something interesting and I wanna get in at the ground level." She lowers her hand, grabbing hold of my robe in a surprisingly strong grip as she turns and pulls me towards the path. "And bring the art student and his poodle. I think this is the start of something funny."

 

[Blackshard]

Hade admitted that he's changed a lot since the old days, but I imagine that it's a sore point with him and I haven't wanted to push it.

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The thought that Paul's now familiar enough with Hades to give him a diminutive nickname is kind of amusing, but I assume that was a typo.

 

[Stsword]

Yeah, Oceanus and Poseidon are both water gods, but Hades and Erebus are a death god and a darkness god respectively.

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Not quite.

"Ah… No. Our God of the Dead is male, but he's the god who rules the souls of those who have died. He's not responsible for the actual process of death."

"You have a separate God of Death and God of the Dead? Or is the God of Death merely a functionary?"

"We have a God of Death, but I've never met… Them. And I'm not completely sure that… When your gods are beings you can meet and speak to in the way I'm speaking to you, you have to take into account the fact that what your religion tells you about them might not be accurate. I'm not sure that Thanatos is.. really a separate individual from Death of the Endless, and while she can appear as pretty much anything she tends to default to female."

Hades is a god of the dead, ruler of the underworld, as per usual in Greek myth. Although there was one play that merged Hades with Thanatos. But Hades has also been merged with Dionysus, Zeus, and Ploutus, so why not?

It could be argued that their domains were therefore compatible to begin with, and they were definitely compatible when Tartarus was made a realm of the underworld.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Found an error in the story only thread. That should say 'Captain Atom'. He's only called major in his civilian identity.

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That's an in-character mistake.

 

[Ngamer11]

He nods. "Glory to the weak, for in having no strength of their own they shall not be tempted to act aught but the will of Darkseid."

…

"Yes."

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I so love reading Canis talk sometimes. If only he'd say things like this in public more often.

I remember the typical version of the myth from Earth Prime, but Hades doesn't seem like the sort to slip a few pomegranate seed roofies in someone's drink. The Amazon version mentions the seeds, but dwells more on Hades's wickedness in not consulting with or appeasing Demeter. I still don't see how Demeter's response of 'starve the world' could be considered anything other than completely deranged, but I… Don't know if the mythological version is what actually happened. Hade admitted that he's changed a lot since the old days, but I imagine that it's a sore point with him and I haven't wanted to push it.

Click to shrink...

That should say 'Hades'.

Before us, there's a village coming up. Or possibly a town? Order of service gets a bit confused in situations where the locals don't need to eat and a temple would be redundant. Hekate used to live in a relatively modest home tended by bound shades of those who joined her cult in life. Now… Now they're all bound to Erebos and like its other denizens they aren't 'shades' in the traditional mindless dead sense any longer.

Given Hekate's threat potential and the fact that most Atlanteans are hostile to the idea of gods I haven't felt the need to make contact with her. I wonder-.

Click to shrink...

"I'm sorry, we're not concubines." She moues in pantomimed disappointment, but I see the purple glow-dust that gathers around her left hand. "Could you please point us in the direction of Lady Hekate? It's a bit urgent."

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These should say 'Hecate', as that's the spelling you used before.

Canis shrugs his shoulders. "I have no objection to being a concubine, if it aids the mission."

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Again, we are shown how New Gods are less afraid to show intimacy.

"-and I need to speak with Lady Hekate on the subject of thaumaturgy and Olympian politics."

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"Hey Paul!" Eris waves as she heads in our direction, wearing a sarong. And nothing else. I bet she was wearing a swimming suit, saw me and then chucked it in the-.

Yes, there it is.

"Eris, good to see you. This will save me time."

"Oh?" She raises her eyebrows. "I don't get a 'Lady' Eris?"

"You're not a lady."

"Eh." She looks at Canis for a moment, the appears to dismiss him. "Are you up to something?"

"At the moment we're just gathering information."

"So 'yes'. You know, I don't think I really committed last time."

"Your help may well be quite useful. Or we might end up resolving things peacefully and-."

"Bghhahaha!" Eris hunches as she splurts with laughs, the action clearly taking her by surprise. She then reaches up with her right hand and half pat and half slaps me around the face. "'Peacef-. Have you met you?"

"Are you going to take us to Lady Hekate or should I just ignore you?"

"Oh, I'll take you. This feels like something interesting and I wanna get in at the ground level." She lowers her hand, grabbing hold of my robe in a surprisingly strong grip and she turns and pulls me towards the path. "And bring the art student and his poodle. I think this is the start of something funny."

Click to shrink...

Again, these should say 'Hecate'. I'm excited now that Eris how shown up to help Paul out. I kinda hope that Paul can also build a positive relationship with Hecate.

 

[BlueMangoAdea]

"And bring the art student and his poodle. I think this is the start of something funny."

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Canis and Eris. This is going to be glorious.

 

[Darko]

"Euanthe would be her aunt. And I don't think that Euanthe is technically a goddess. It's not just a measure of power, it's about how their metaphysique is structured." I frown thoughtfully. "Unless you're telling me otherwise

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After absorbing that piece of the Tree of Knowkedge, she may have become something like a New God since it's connected to the Source.

"Can-?" He jerks his head around, frowning. "Yes, of course they can. A New God joins to an aspect of Darkseid's divinity

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Not quite.

Though I guess the gods of Apokalips are connected to things that serve tyranny.

"She's Zeus's daughter. But… Ah, I don't think they're on good terms

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Not after he gave her to Hades without talking about it with her.

I remember the typical version of the myth from Earth Prime, but Hades doesn't seem like the sort to slip a few pomegranate seed roofies in someone's drink. The Amazon version mentions the seeds, but dwells more on Hades's wickedness in not consulting with or appeasing Demeter. I still don't see how Demeter's response of 'starve the world' could be considered anything other than completely deranged, but I… Don't know if the mythological version is what actually happened. Hade admitted that he's changed a lot since the old days, but I imagine that it's a sore point with him and I haven't wanted to push it

Click to shrink...

Hephaestus basically told you the story.

The "seeds" were not necessarily real pomegranate seeds, it was him making her pregnant.

Given Hekate's threat potential and the fact that most Atlanteans are hostile to the idea of gods

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This hasn't come up before.

I thought they were okay with gods.

gods I haven't felt

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'gods, I haven't'

it's just at the titan's magic

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'that the titan's'

Erebos is actually well-served with rivers, it's just at the titan's magic tends to give them unpleasant arcane effects. I

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Like memory loss.

Canis shrugs his shoulders. "I have no objection to being a concubine, if it aids the mission."

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Always willing to take one for the team.

"Eh." She looks at Canis for a moment, the appears to dismiss him. "Are you up to something?"

"At the moment we're just gathering information."

"So 'yes

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She knows him so well.

Your help may well be quite useful. Or we might end up resolving things peacefully and-."

"Bghhahaha!" Eris hunches as she splurts with laughs, the action clearly taking her by surprise. She then reaches up with her right hand and half pat and half slaps me around the face. "'Peacef-. Have you met you?

Click to shrink...

She really knows him.

"Oh, I'll take you. This feels like something interesting and I wanna get in at the ground level." She lowers her hand, grabbing hold of my robe in a surprisingly strong grip and she turns and pulls me towards the path. "And bring the art student and his poodle. I think this is the start of something funny

Click to shrink...

Hilarious.

 

[Ngamer11]

This hasn't come up before.

I thought they were okay with gods.

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I think it was said that they acknowledge them, but don't necessarily worship them. It's most likely a result of Ahri'ahn's influence.

 

[Mr Zoat]

The thought that Paul's now familiar enough with Hades to give him a diminutive nickname is kind of amusing, but I assume that was a typo.

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Handlewithcare]

Imagine the ads the Hellenists could run.

"Choose our afterlife, we have half-naked Amazons in waterparks!"

Also, does Canis not know about the New Gods of New Genesis or is he brainwashed to believe they serve Darkseid as well?

 

[Mr Zoat]

That should say 'Hades'.
These should say 'Hecate', as that's the spelling you used before.
Again, these should say 'Hecate'. I'm excited now that Eris how shown up to help Paul out. I kinda hope that Paul can also build a positive relationship with Hecate.

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'gods, I haven't'
'that the titan's'

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Darko]

Also, does Canis not know about the New Gods of New Genesis or is he brainwashed to believe they serve Darkseid as well

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He knows about them, but probably thinks that Darkseid is the beginning and end of everything, including the New Genesians, so they don't matter all that much to him.

He may just think that Darkseid made them so he could test himself or prove a point