With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Slayer Anderson]

I'm the same way, which is why I have to question the rest of it.

Sure, Zatanna mentioned that killing the syndicate would end up killing half the country, but A: Where did that number come from? And B, why is that a hard number?
zero.

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I agree that the number is probably not accurate, but what I find more disturbing than the number used is the reaction the heroes have to the stated possibility that half the nation could be killed as a direct result of their prolonged conflict with the villains.

For me, it's less about an exact accounting for the possible casualties and more the fact that Enigma and the rest just casually accept and brush that potentiality off. It speaks of either a blithe surety that it won't get that far or, more likely given the context of the conversation as a whole, an acceptance that even the deaths of one hundred and fifty million people are worth their goal.

In either instance, that is a really bad thing.

 

[Buggy123]

I'm the same way, which is why I have to question the rest of it.

Sure, Zatanna mentioned that killing the syndicate would end up killing half the country, but A: Where did that number come from? And B, why is that a hard number?
Did they see something in the syndicate base that we didn't get to see?

Surely the casualty numbers depend entirely on how they go about it, with military intervention having massive casualties and something like a superhero strike-force attacking the villains in an isolated area would naturally have less.

They don't want to fight the syndicate like two armies fighting a war, they want to strike at them like assassins, going right for the heads and/or the most dangerous weapons in their arsenal first, taking those off the table and then mopping up the least dangerous members afterwards.

Attacking, for example, the Zatara crime family in the streets would lead to massive casualties as a while clan of reality warpers start tearing the city apart.
On the other hand, if they manage to find them all in one place and took them out with sleeping gas and sound-baffles to prevent them from speaking, then the casualty-rate should drop to near-zero.

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I don't think the important thing here is actually that it could end with less death. Zatanna threw out 150 million off the top of her head, and Enigma's first reaction wasn't "that's ridiculously high" or "we'll find a better way". His first reaction was "worth it". Whether or not that figure is right, he accepted it without hesitation.

And it's not just Enigma. President Wilson's actions have popular support. It was stated that he could go on TV and announce that they're beginning summary executions, and the people would cheer.

This isn't a place of reason or rational decision-making. This is hundreds of millions of people calling for genocide, demanding that they cut them down to a man. And their 'victims' are just as bad, and they can, and will, return the favor.

I'm torn between a normal reaction of horror, and a cynical appreciation of the sheer... honesty, of such a huge group of people saying 'fuck it', throwing off the veneer of civilization, and becoming true to their shit-flinging, tree-swinging, rape-and-pillaging origins and going out in a blaze of tribalistic fury.

Maybe OL should intervene. He probably will, honestly. But if I was in his place? I'd be tempted to sit down with a bucket of popcorn.

 

[iamnuff]

Perhaps, but judging by their behavior and Enigma's responses, I still don't think that they'd care, or at least that they'd make much distinction between 'member of the Syndicate' and 'powered non-Syndicate-member who is trying to negotiate on behalf of the Syndicate.'

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That's why you MAKE the distinction that you're negotiating between the syndicate and the heroes on behalf of a third party (in this case, the people who have to live in the world that you two of them want to tear apart to get at each-other)

Whilst-ever they think he's doing anything in the name of the syndicate, any real negotiation is impossible.

I agree that the number is probably not accurate, but what I find more disturbing than the number used is the reaction the heroes have to the stated possibility that half the nation could be killed as a direct result of their prolonged conflict with the villains.

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I mean, if I thought an enemy combatant was pulling a number out of their ass to try to convince me not to fight them then i'd probably just shrug and say that i'm fine with it.

Maybe they really are that callous, or maybe he's an intelligent man putting on a front to prevent people trying to manipulate him, because he knows that you can't show terrorists that they have any leverage over you, or they'll abuse it forever.

Could go either way.

And it's not just Enigma. President Wilson's actions have popular support. It was stated that he could go on TV and announce that they're beginning summary executions, and the people would cheer.

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This isn't a group of innocent people being persecuted because of their nationality or religious beliefs, they're murderers and terrorists being taken down by their former victims.
Personally, I have no problem with that and I'd probably cheer them on.
The only part that bothers me is that the goverment mght attack in a way that hurts civillains, or that the Syndicate response will delibirately target innocents.

That's why I'm advocating stuff like ambushes or assassinations.I consider the deaths of the syndicate members to be perfectly just. Made Men too, probably.

Minor related people like white collar crooks could get jail-time, but actual members need to die. They just need to pull it off in a way that doesn't leave tens of thousands of civilians dead.

Of course, things will be awkward if Blaul comes back with his new wife and they find out that the entire Zatara crime family and Young Offenders lineup were wiped out in their absence.

 

[Buggy123]

This isn't a group of innocent people being persecuted because of their nationality or religious beliefs, they're murderers and terrorists being taken down by their former victims.
Personally, I have no problem with that and I'd probably cheer them on.
The only part that bothers me is that the goverment mght attack in a way that hurts civillains, or that the Syndicate response will delibirately target innocents.

That's why I'm advocating stuff like ambushes or assassinations.I consider the deaths of the syndicate members to be perfectly just. Made Men too, probably.

Minor related people like white collar crooks could get jail-time, but actual members need to die. They just need to pull it off in a way that doesn't leave tens of thousands of civilians dead.

Of course, things will be awkward if Blaul comes back with his new wife and they find out that the entire Zatara crime family and Young Offenders lineup were wiped out in their absence.

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I mean, I did kinda say that:

And their 'victims' are just as bad, and they can, and will, return the favor.

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No one's innocent here. Everyone has reverted to shit-flinging monkey; citizen or syndicate, they're shits all the same. And honestly, I'd be tempted to watch them burn their continent to ash, shrug, and then go home.

Nothing of value would be lost. And it would make such a beautiful fire as it burns!

 

[Prince Charon]

That's why you MAKE the distinction that you're negotiating between the syndicate and the heroes on behalf of a third party (in this case, the people who have to live in the world that you two of them want to tear apart to get at each-other)

Whilst-ever they think he's doing anything in the name of the syndicate, any real negotiation is impossible.

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Given their reactions to the idea of half the country dying, as well as the rest of the conversation, I really doubt that it would matter.

 

[Sceptic]

Minor related people like white collar crooks could get jail-time, but actual members need to die. They just need to pull it off in a way that doesn't leave tens of thousands of civilians dead.

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The government aren't making that distinction. They seem to be labeling anyone who has ever done anything even remotely related to those crime families as members of the syndicate.

 

[Chaoswind]

Mr Zoat I am going to assume that by "Mexicans from Kansas" being in the equivalent of concentration camps, you meant to say every Latin American, as you know contrary to popular US belief not every Latin American is from Mexico.

And iamnuff fuck off, the government lost any kind of argument the moment they happily installed racial profiling policies and rounded up poor people because "demographic statistics" say they are more likely to be criminals, and that was before they gleefully agreed the destruction of the country wasn't a high price to pay to achieve their vengeance.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Mr Zoat I am going to assume that by "Mexicans from Kansas" being in the equivalent of concentration camps, you meant to say every Latin American, as you know contrary to popular US belief not every Latin American is from Mexico.

And iamnuff fuck off, the government lost any kind of argument the moment they happily installed racial profiling policies and rounded up poor people because "demographic statistics" say they are more likely to be criminals, and that was before they gleefully agreed the destruction of the country wasn't a high price to pay to achieve their vengeance.

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The Kents had connections to Mexican cartels. There are probably some people from other parts of Central and South America, but they only represent a small proportion.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

I really can't fault the average citizen for cheering for the Syndicates deaths.

But beyond that I really don't care about any of this, and I really think OL should just cut his losses, grab his magician girl, and go home. Because none of this is his problem.

 

[Prince Charon]

I really can't fault the average citizen for cheering for the Syndicates deaths.

But beyond that I really don't care about any of this, and I really think OL should just cut his losses, grab his magician girl, and go home. Because none of this is his problem.

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On the one hand, I agree, but on the other, Paul not leaving well enough alone is certainly in-character by now, as people making sub-optimal choices that cause massive harm greatly annoys him. It's sort of like how it's so hard to just stop posting in a thread where someone else insists on being obviously wrong on the internet, but with much more important consequences either way.

 

[Buggy123]

On the one hand, I agree, but on the other, Paul not leaving well enough alone is certainly in-character by now, as people making sub-optimal choices that cause massive harm greatly annoys him. It's sort of like how it's so hard to just stop posting in a thread where someone else insists on being obviously wrong on the internet, but with much more important consequences either way.

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Why would I want to stop posting? Arguing is fun!

 

[Mquz]

I don't feel like I should have to say this, but most Mexicans in Kansas aren't breaking the law. They are perfectly average citizens. Kansas didn't even historically have too many of those breaking immigration laws either, compared to say, Texas, or California: it wasn't a border State, and it wasn't very populated. Neither of these things are likely to change in a fictional world, unless they were avoiding other places for some reason.
More than that, Kansas could literally be called one of the most boring states. Almost nothing ever happens there. People there aren't the kind that make huge money off of farming.

Likewise, Mexican Cartels (after looking it up, (first google search for Mexican Kansas Cartel)) apparently have a far weaker presence in the western central states, including most of Kansas than almost anywhere else in the States.

Basically, and this should be fairly obvious: most Mexicans (especially in Kansas) shouldn't be involved in illegal activity. In Kansas especially, they are usually there completely legally.

If Slade is arresting every Mexican in Kansas, as Zoat has claimed, there is clearly something very wrong. He has levels of racism worse than some very controversial political figures.

 

[Prince Charon]

Basically, and this should be fairly obvious: most Mexicans (especially in Kansas) shouldn't be involved in illegal activity. In Kansas especially, they are usually there completely legally.

If Slade is arresting every Mexican in Kansas, as Zoat has claimed, there is clearly something very wrong. He has levels of racism worse than some very controversial political figures.

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Well, yes. I'm pretty sure that's what the narrative is trying to indicate, that something is terribly wrong.

I wouldn't call it racism, so much as bigotry, though. There's a difference. He isn't going after them for being Hispanic or for being Mexican, he's going after them because a bunch of Mexicans were connected to the Syndicate, and he's going after the relatives of people loosely associated with the Syndicate. Mexicans not in Kansas are probably not being treated the same way, apart from those who are suspected of associating with the Syndicate, who are under as much threat as anyone else associated with someone connected to the Syndicate, from any ethnic group.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

On the one hand, I agree, but on the other, Paul not leaving well enough alone is certainly in-character by now, as people making sub-optimal choices that cause massive harm greatly annoys him. It's sort of like how it's so hard to just stop posting in a thread where someone else insists on being obviously wrong on the internet, but with much more important consequences either way.

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Oh no, I imagine OL is going to Try and see this to the end.

Although his bluer-ego being off planet almost makes sense now. If he saw this coming and said "Sod it." Or whatever hopey Brits say. Granted, I doubt that is the case as he probably would not leave his team.

Still...it is planet stupid in universe evil and one would think OL wouldn't want to establish "Kidnap me and a friend and I'll fix your shit." Precedence.

 

[iamnuff]

And iamnuff fuck off, the government lost any kind of argument the moment they happily installed racial profiling policies and rounded up poor people because "demographic statistics" say they are more likely to be criminals, and that was before they gleefully agreed the destruction of the country wasn't a high price to pay to achieve their vengeance.

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Where the fuck did you get racial profiling from?
They're going after everyone connected to a criminal gang, a gang that doesn't recruit based on skin-colour.

They might be profiling the fuck out of people, but I doubt race has anything to do with it.

Exit, oh, the stuff with the kent farm, rather than the syndicate properly.

The line about 'every Mexican in Kansas' struck me as hyperbole, implying that there aren't very many Mexicans in Kansas (because why would anybody go to Kansas) before the kents started funnelling people through there while people-trafficking, so when the government cracked down on them, the number went back to almost zero.

I don't really know enough about american geography to really know if Kansas would make a good location for a coke plantation staffed people victims of human trafficking.

I mean, I did kinda say that:

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It's the fact that you refered to the syndicate as 'victims' that threw me.
The bystanders caught in the middle are the victims. Maybe even people like Edward Nigma are the victims.
The syndicate are getting what they've earned, and the only part that I'd regret is if that spills over onto the people standing too close.

 

[Buggy123]

It's the fact that you refered to the syndicate as 'victims' that threw me.
The bystanders caught in the middle are the victims. Maybe even people like Edward Nigma are the victims.
The syndicate are getting what they've earned, and the only part that I'd regret is if that spills over onto the people standing too close.

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Its in quotes though. They aren't really victims at all. The whole situation is a rare example of shitty people doing shitty things to other shitty people who are doing shitty things right back.

Whether or not you can name any of them as a victim is sort of secondary to the fact that you'd rather they just shit each-other to death, so everyone else can enjoy a slightly less smelly earth.

 

[Prince Charon]

Its in quotes though. They aren't really victims at all. The whole situation is a rare example of shitty people doing shitty things to other shitty people who are doing shitty things right back.

Whether or not you can name any of them as a victim is sort of secondary to the fact that you'd rather they just shit each-other to death, so everyone else can enjoy a slightly less smelly earth.

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The problem being that they seem to be also going after anyone associated with the Syndicate, or anyone associated with anyone associated with the Syndicate, including people who are probably fairly innocent.

 

[Stsword]

The problem being that they seem to be also going after anyone associated with the Syndicate, or anyone associated with anyone associated with the Syndicate, including people who are probably fairly innocent.

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If memory serves, Zoat established that the Wilson administration made it illegal to have any dealings with the Syndicate, and that someone literally got arrested for selling a syndicate member an apple.

 

[Mr Zoat]

If memory serves, Zoat established that the Wilson administration made it illegal to have any dealings with the Syndicate, and that someone literally got arrested for selling a syndicate member an apple.

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Yes, it is illegal, but in that case it was accepted by the prosecuting authorities during pretrial that they'd overstepped. The individual arrested still spent some time in prison, though.

 

[Ngamer11]

If Paul can access the Ophidian, he should just brand everybody to get them to temporarily stop, make them a portal home, then leave after undoing the branding. That is the best possible outcome I could see for Paul and Zatanna. That world is already on the road to self-destruction and beyond any hope of saving. I hope Paul just decides to do that rather than try to stop an unavoidable super war.

 

[infinityDivided]

Quick question: if this is a reversed-morality universe, does that mean that NEKRON is good, and the White Entity is evil? Is there going to be a Brightest Day in their future, where White Lanterns try to destroy the concept of death so that everything lives forever?

 

[Mr Zoat]

If Paul can access the Ophidian, he should just brand everybody to get them to temporarily stop, make them a portal home, then leave after undoing the branding. That is the best possible outcome I could see for Paul and Zatanna. That world is already on the road to self-destruction and beyond any hope of saving. I hope Paul just decides to do that rather than try to stop an unavoidable super war.

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We haven't seen the world outside of the US.

Quick question: if this is a reversed-morality universe, does that mean that NEKRON is good, and the White Entity is evil? Is there going to be a Brightest Day in their future, where White Lantern try to destroy the concept of death so that everything lives forever?

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Well... It's not that much of a stretch.

 

[Impartial Panic]

I really can't fault the average citizen for cheering for the Syndicates deaths.

But beyond that I really don't care about any of this, and I really think OL should just cut his losses, grab his magician girl, and go home. Because none of this is his problem.

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your world is your wold, we got enough problems in our own universe we don't need your on top of it.

Not a very heroic attitude.

you can't save everyone and trying just gets more people killed than saved.

 

[PrinceJonathan]

"No. But it was a long shot, anyway. Let's see what we can do on the other end."

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Set it up so that there are no survivors on either side because seriously fuck this planet?

 

[Gantradies]

The point is that the Japanese leadership took it seriously and so their propaganda reflected it, which intern meant that many soldiers did and surrender was so hard to consider that very few did as well as some soldiers spending decades hiding in the jungle after the war before giving up. So Japanese actually did do not very effective to near pointless suicide attacks or other wise died rather than surrender (which more or less is a part of traditional Bushido and part of why POWs were so badly treated by Japan). Also that if the USA had tried to invade the home islands we would most likely have had to fight and kill thousands of civilians armed with archaic weapons trying to ambush them. Lastly i said "cult of the warrior" as in what the "official partly line" was rather than what people actually felt/thought.



Agreed! I am some thing of a Japanophile (I've watched every ep of the Begin-Japanology series on youtube I could find more than once) as well as a big fan of Anime/Manga so I know that the "Bushido" pushed by Japanese leadership during WWII was more or less a inaccurate over hyped load of cow manure. I don't know about Japan using amphetamines as combat stimulants (I know Germany did so at least a little) or beatings, but I do know that at least partly due to that toxic xenophobia a guy who struck out the Sultan of Swat Babe Ruth as a kid gave up baseball and i'm pretty sure died on a submarine during the war. Although i'd hardly call them a "animalistic, howling mob of lunatics" as the did so well in China partly because they were better/more disciplined soldiers.

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To clarify, I was referring to the confirmed/verified war crimes several IJA units committed in Nanjing- from actual Camibalism (1-3 cases- the primary reason I suspect at least some of the soldiers deployed were abusing/overusing "Energy Tablets" to...worse.
well... one of the things the Germans were accused of in WW1 era propaganda involving infants- I don't want to give specifics, the vague version is bad enough >.<

im struggling to remeber the details of 2-3 year old research, but the usage of "energy tablets" in potentially excessive doses would.. match up with some of the... more unstable behaviour- I'm positive I'd found some sources confirming/ giving a reasonable case but by memory is shot right now £.<

 

[Needybaby]

No doubt on Teekl coming out as the red lantern...

 

[LazySloth13]

At this point Paul should plan his own Decapitation and aim for both sides; since the Syndicate management may be willing to step down to a certain degree not all members seem to like this and may just revert to open conflict, Wilson and his forces have lost too much of their own people to villains to let the rest of the hook, and regardless of any pragmatic resolutions Paul may offer he's dealing people who are essentially comic book characters who follow their tropes to their cores.

He should focus on forming a third group of morally flexible people to pick up the pieces on both sides and actually maintain the infrastructure of the country, which include the uninvolved civilians. Similar to how Grayven created his own version of The Light after destroying the old one, or when he visited the other version of Earth's Justice Lords.

 

[Bigreader]

I don't feel like I should have to say this, but most Mexicans in Kansas aren't breaking the law. They are perfectly average citizens. Kansas didn't even historically have too many of those breaking immigration laws either, compared to say, Texas, or California: it wasn't a border State, and it wasn't very populated. Neither of these things are likely to change in a fictional world, unless they were avoiding other places for some reason.
More than that, Kansas could literally be called one of the most boring states. Almost nothing ever happens there. People there aren't the kind that make huge money off of farming.

Likewise, Mexican Cartels (after looking it up, (first google search for Mexican Kansas Cartel)) apparently have a far weaker presence in the western central states, including most of Kansas than almost anywhere else in the States.

Basically, and this should be fairly obvious: most Mexicans (especially in Kansas) shouldn't be involved in illegal activity. In Kansas especially, they are usually there completely legally.

If Slade is arresting every Mexican in Kansas, as Zoat has claimed, there is clearly something very wrong. He has levels of racism worse than some very controversial political figures.

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One you should stop trying to use real-world politics and statistics to support an argument about a parallel universe that has a drastically different history than ours and even different than the one we've been mostly following throughout this entire story it's not a good way to argue for things when it might be entirely inaccurate.

 

[Steelplaza]

Fundamentally the problem with the Syndicate's demands is that they want both leniency and the right to continue their criminal operations. There is some argument for mass amnesties and pardons to get the losing side of a civil war to lay down their weapons. It's happened many times in history all over the world. But the losing side has to agree to lay down their weapons and pursue their ends through peaceful means.

The major mistake in the strategy of Wilson and his supporters is that they ought to be offering pardons and leniency to Syndicate defectors. We keep hearing that the Made Men won't tolerate the status quo, but how many of those Made Men would sell out the Syndicate in a heartbeat if the government offered them amnesty for turning on the Syndicate? There is a big difference between making deals with "the Syndicate" and making deals with people who leave the Syndicate.

 

[Cuchulin]

I don't think the important thing here is actually that it could end with less death. Zatanna threw out 150 million off the top of her head, and Enigma's first reaction wasn't "that's ridiculously high" or "we'll find a better way". His first reaction was "worth it". Whether or not that figure is right, he accepted it without hesitation.
And it's not just Enigma. President Wilson's actions have popular support. It was stated that he could go on TV and announce that they're beginning summary executions, and the people would cheer.
This isn't a place of reason or rational decision-making. This is hundreds of millions of people calling for genocide, demanding that they cut them down to a man. And their 'victims' are just as bad, and they can, and will, return the favor.
I'm torn between a normal reaction of horror, and a cynical appreciation of the sheer... honesty, of such a huge group of people saying 'fuck it', throwing off the veneer of civilization, and becoming true to their shit-flinging, tree-swinging, rape-and-pillaging origins and going out in a blaze of tribalistic fury.
Maybe OL should intervene. He probably will, honestly. But if I was in his place? I'd be tempted to sit down with a bucket of popcorn.

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Enigma and Wilson would most likely lose at least quite a bit of support if people realized just how much collateral damage the two were willing to tolerate. After all 150 million People dead means that you or some one you care about will almost certainly be killed.

Fundamentally the problem with the Syndicate's demands is that they want both leniency and the right to continue their criminal operations. There is some argument for mass amnesties and pardons to get the losing side of a civil war to lay down their weapons. It's happened many times in history all over the world. But the losing side has to agree to lay down their weapons and pursue their ends through peaceful means.

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I don't think that is true for all of them, most I think just want to go back to living their lives and are willing to stop being criminals if they have a way to make money legally. There is also deportation, sending them to be some one else's problem some where else.

The major mistake in the strategy of Wilson and his supporters is that they ought to be offering pardons and leniency to Syndicate defectors. We keep hearing that the Made Men won't tolerate the status quo, but how many of those Made Men would sell out the Syndicate in a heartbeat if the government offered them amnesty for turning on the Syndicate? There is a big difference between making deals with "the Syndicate" and making deals with people who leave the Syndicate.

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Very much agreed! Peeling off at least a people (preferably high level) and using them/their knowledge to take down the entire organization (or at least part of it) is how the Mafia is dealt with in real life.