With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Enochi · Aug 30, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
I'm not really big on the Silver Age.

Batman took the ring because -having had a version of the SI with access to multiple parallel universes beat the other founders- he wanted to be completely sure that wasn't going to happen on his home parallel. The others didn't stop him sending it to Oa because they'd just been beaten badly and the villains had effectively gotten away with it. Now a few days later they're probably a bit calmer, but they don't have the ring to hand back. What cleverer option are you expecting them to use here?

The League hasn't done anything stupid. But they have done something that's creating a new problem for themselves. Of course, if the man with an army of supervillains and control of the west's power generation network had turned out to be a direct violent threat, they'd be ahead of the game.

Yes because Batman who has been able to steal rings off the fucking fingers of Active GLs before couldn't create a convincing fake. Right. And the League despite being a UN charter and the UN having FAR more influence in that world can't come up with a reason or at least a pretext for why they grabbed it. Despite the fact Superman was tasked by the worlds governments to remove all weapons of mass destruction. No this is all just you. You want to make the League look like short-sighted idiots so you can have Peter walk in and tell them how he is the smartest person in the Multiverse and how they have been doing things wrong and how if they listen to him he can solve all their problems.

We have seen this song and dance before man your not fooling anyone.

Darko · Aug 30, 2020

⸺⸺⸺ said:
My sides, what a dystopia does Luthor live in! Regularly vandalized by Superman for "whispering super-villain-like comments".

Oh so the guy with a long history of criminal activity and a noted hatred of one guy decides to do something secret and all the while act like a villain, and the secret thing has the weakness of the guy he hates incorporated in it, and Superman isn't supposed to be suspicious about it and try to stop whatever he is doing?

⸺⸺⸺ said:
The lasso of truth will quickly expose such an outrageous lie. That's like trying to ban breathing.

If they show what the orange light did to Larfleeze the various courts may be more willing to let the matter go.

⸺⸺⸺ said:
The ring actually came from elsewhere, so it doesn't matter what they think they know.

The ring could have just as easily come from Earth 12.

⸺⸺⸺ said:
What objective criteria did this bunch of uppity capes used when they assumed that they, and not the orange ring user, should hold power?

When the other orange ring user decided that leaving a criminal group hold power was a good idea.

⸺⸺⸺ said:
How about not being entitled to social power? They aren't politicians, they aren't supposed to engage in the rat-race tug-of-war with little regard to individual worthiness of their potential opposition.

What sort of things are the League supposed to engage in?

It's like you're saying they can't engage in charities for the poor because it can be seen as a political stunt and they shouldn't be political in any way.

⸺⸺⸺ said:
And they invited him to work for them, so why would they not work for him, like they work for Batman, if Peter Wynne was empowered by a power ring?

They don't work for Batman, they just follow his orders because he tends to be the most tactically minded of them, and following the orders of your best tactician is a sensible thing to do.

They may also not work for Peter, even if he had a ring, just because they don't want to.

⸺⸺⸺ said:
So they acted blindly and ignorantly again, got it. Then I want to see Guardians ordering Earth Lanterns to load their huge database full of alien R&D to Peter Wynne's supercomputer as a compensation for the destroyed power ring.

Did you read this before you posted it?

The most the Guardians are likely to give him is an advanced tooth brush for making his teeth perfect.

Darko · Aug 30, 2020

Gilhelmi said:
Remember, the Demon OL ended up doing the unspeakable to the heroes of his Earth. There, but for the grace of God go I.

I think you mean Tangseid here who did the unspeakable things to the heroes of his Earth.

Sybarite is the actual Demon OL and while he's very horny he does appear to not be evil, and hasn't hurt the good guys.

SotF said:
they really wouldn't want their lanterns listed as a criminal organization.

They may already be listed as criminal organizations in places like the Reach.

The Guardians may also not care what one planet thinks of them if it prevents another Larfleeze from emerging.

SotF · Aug 30, 2020

Darko said:
They may already be listed as criminal organizations in places like the Reach.

The Guardians may also not care what one planet thinks of them if it prevents another Larfleeze from emerging.

The Reach isn't really a thing in the DCAU if I remember right

Darko · Aug 30, 2020

Enochi said:
Yes because Batman who has been able to steal rings off the fucking fingers of Active GLs before couldn't create a convincing fake.

Batman may not want to risk stealing his ring in a battle as that would be very dangerous.

He also may not know how to convincingly make a fake ring that can emit the emotion it represents.

He may not even know about the Emotional Spectrum because Stewart could be his only source on the rings and he also may not know much about them.

Enochi said:
And the League despite being a UN charter and the UN having FAR more influence in that world can't come up with a reason or at least a pretext for why they grabbed it.

The League had a UN charter in YJ, but I think they just used their popularity to get by in the JLU cartoon instead of some contract.

Enochi said:
Despite the fact Superman was tasked by the worlds governments to remove all weapons of mass destruction.

Superman worked for the governments for just that one time if I remember.

He's not exactly a regular employee.

Enochi said:
No this is all just you. You want to make the League look like short-sighted idiots so you can have Peter walk in and tell them how he is the smartest person in the Multiverse and how they have been doing things wrong and how if they listen to him he can solve all their problems.

The League has done a lot of stupid and short sighted things in canon, like installing a WMD in the Watchtower and not informing the government about it until they first used it, so we know they're capable of doing some stupid things.

Enochi said:
We have seen this song and dance before man your not fooling anyone.

If you mean how he portrayed the YJ League then I have to disappoint you, because the writers of that show made the League act like idiots in the first place.

Zoat stayed true to canon.

All he did was just point out that they were idiots.

Darko · Aug 30, 2020

SotF said:
The Reach isn't really a thing in the DCAU if I remember right

Even if they aren't I'm sure other groups consider the GLC criminals.

Zoat did Duela and Talon go to Earth 12 like Paul suggested?

Doccer · Aug 30, 2020

Hey @Me Zoat
How will Peter's villian personnel react to this? An out group just violated their in group so I imagine some of the less reformed members or the ones Peter has a more personal attachment with might be thinking of putting on the only duds?
Will Peter need to point out that by taking legal action and sueing the Justice League in their civilian identities he can hit like Al Capone?

Darko · Aug 30, 2020

Doccer said:
Hey @Me Zoat
How will Peter's villian personnel react to this? An out group just violated their in group so I imagine some of the less reformed members or the ones Peter has a more personal attachment with might be thinking of putting on the only duds?
Will Peter need to point out that by taking legal action and sueing the Justice League in their civilian identities he can hit like Al Capone?

They may be reformed enough that they don't jump right away to full on supervillain revenge mode.

He may also not inform them of this to prevent them from doing it.

TheMidnightRook · Aug 30, 2020

Enochi said:
couldn't create a convincing fake.

Batman's fake was probably visually convincing, probably even felt, sounded, smelled, and even tasted like the real thing. But the ring's charge was only mostly dead, not completely dead, and there's no faking that.

transhumansage · Aug 30, 2020

Enochi said:
Yep. This episode fucking sucks. Heroes act like dumbasses so the authorlord can look good and smart. Classic case of being unable to write actually smart characters so just makes other characters dumb so he looks smart by comparison.

Sigh come on Zoat we have been over this. You can and SHOULD do better.

actually. in the jla and jlu they really are that dumb.

Vaermina said:
Given his hate of the things mind warping effects this really doesn't make much sense...

Like, why not just ask for a green ring instead?

im guessing it would be full of "bobblehead maleware"

Mr Zoat · Aug 30, 2020

Doccer said:
Pretty sure the Justice Lords thing already happened so this is very much pot calling kettle black. Little surprised he didn't take the shot.

I don't think the Justice Lords were that big a deal in-universe. The League showed up to a fight wearing a different uniform, then... There was a fight between two versions of the League that one side won. A fight that wasn't televised and took place somewhere where there weren't many witnesses. If Peter was in the UK at the time... Or most places in the US, then he might not even know that it happened.

⸺⸺⸺ said:
How about not being entitled to social power?

I'm sorry, I don't understand how this relates to what I wrote. Who isn't entitled to social power? What do you mean by social power?

They aren't politicians, they aren't supposed to engage in the rat-race tug-of-war with little regard to individual worthiness of their potential opposition. What objective criteria did this bunch of uppity capes used when they assumed that they, and not the orange ring user, should hold power? No, "superhero supervillain stylistic" is not an objective criteria. And they invited him to work for them, so why would they not work for him, like they work for Batman, if Peter Wynne was empowered by a power ring?

A decade or more of dealing with extremely dangerous people with super powers, and seeing the results of their work first-hand.

Vigilantes by definition don't follow the law. Batman never has, Superman... Doesn't really. They all prefer their judgement to that of the judicial system. That's why Superman let Volcana go. That's why Batman was investigating NASA and found the Imperium's shapeshifters.

Batman wanted to work with Peter Wynne so that he could better understand the main SI and the Blue Lantern version for next time they have to fight them, and next time they have to fight someone as capable.

So they acted blindly and ignorantly again, got it. Then I want to see Guardians ordering Earth Lanterns to load their huge ring database full of alien R&D to Peter Wynne's supercomputer as a compensation for the destroyed power ring.

Why would the Guardians give him anything? They were given a suspicious object by their local agent and asked to examine it. They'll only have done something wrong if they fail to return it, assuming that it's in one piece.

Mr Zoat · Aug 30, 2020

Enochi said:
~~Yes because Batman who has been able to steal rings off the fucking fingers of Active GLs before couldn't create a convincing fake.~~

I DON'T SEE ANYTHING FROM NU52 HERE, DO YOU?

Right. And the League despite being a UN charter and the UN having FAR more influence in that world can't come up with a reason or at least a pretext for why they grabbed it. Despite the fact Superman was tasked by the worlds governments to remove all weapons of mass destruction. No this is all just you. You want to make the League look like short-sighted idiots so you can have Peter walk in and tell them how he is the smartest person in the Multiverse and how they have been doing things wrong and how if they listen to him he can solve all their problems.

We have seen this song and dance before man your not fooling anyone.

Justice League 12 doesn't have a UN Charter. That's Justice League 16.

Doccer said:
Hey @Me Zoat
How will Peter's villian personnel react to this? An out group just violated their in group so I imagine some of the less reformed members or the ones Peter has a more personal attachment with might be thinking of putting on the only duds?
Will Peter need to point out that by taking legal action and sueing the Justice League in their civilian identities he can hit like Al Capone?

He's going to avoid telling them if at all possible. The pats on the back would be too embarrassing, to say nothing of the added risk of recidivism.

Peter really doesn't want to sue the League. It's the nuclear option, but it's got to be on the table.

Darko · Aug 30, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
I
Why would the Guardians give him anything? They were given a suspicious object by their local agent and asked to examine it. They'll only have done something wrong if they fail to return it, assuming that it's in one piece.

Now that I think about it, this may be the first time the Guardians 12 have even encountered an orange ring, assuming Larfleeze doesn't exist.

Mr Zoat said:
I DON'T SEE ANYTHING FROM NU52 HERE, DO YOU?

Well the last thing you added from the n52 was that psychic Lantern that liked to experiment on sapients in the A Week In The Life episode.

Still while I enjoyed the n52 that thing with Bat's stealing the ring was kinda dumb.

Oh and Angel Paul is in the universe where Batman did steal the ring right under Hal's nose, along with a lot of other elements from the n52, like Cyborg being part Father Box, Diana wearing silver, Supes not wearing underwear on the outside etc.

Did Talon and Duela go to Earth 12 like Paul suggested?

If not what happened to them?

Enochi · Aug 30, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
I DON'T SEE ANYTHING FROM NU52 HERE, DO YOU?

Why not you pick and choose from every continuity anyway. Using whatever you feel like and ignoring what would be damaging to yourself.

Mr Zoat said:
Justice League 12 doesn't have a UN Charter. That's Justice League 16.

You are incorrect. Both do.

Ardy · Aug 31, 2020

Enochi said:
Why not you pick and choose from every continuity anyway. Using whatever you feel like and ignoring what would be damaging to yourself.

Jesus, I think Vaermina found their soul mate

Stsword · Aug 31, 2020

Cuchulin said:
No, the Lords was a different version of the early League. The US gov going after the Founders would utterly destroy the greater League as various newer member quit it or quit being heroes entirely (at least for a while) because they are spooked, turn on the founders/Batman for being so a boneheaded A-hole, sign up with a government alternative to the League (like when Captain Atom sided with Cadmus over the League). There are just to many active Super Heroes here for the Founders to become the Justice Lords, also they'd lack access to Bruce Wayne's resources.
One more thing is they'd have Peter Wynn and his former super villain allies opposing them

That's what you're going with?

That the superheroes would be spooked by the League stealing an alien superweapon from an alien (invader?) from an unknown universe who routinely hires supervillains?

Yeah, I'm sure he seems like such a sympathetic victim to absolutely no one, they'd be a bit busy waiting for the inevitable mad laughter and plans for world conquest.

And the government doesn't want a superhero team in this universe, they want slaves. Hence the Ultimen, hence the Suicide Squad and their explosive leashes, and the Zeta project.

Darko · Aug 31, 2020

Enochi said:
Why not you pick and choose from every continuity anyway. Using whatever you feel like and ignoring what would be damaging to yourself.

You are incorrect. Both do.

Excellent point on the first part.
(he already kinda does this, but not that much, and likes bitching about the n52)

Source for the second one please. I'm having trouble finding anything that says the League in Earth 12 has a UN charter.

DAT_NOOB · Aug 31, 2020

Stsword said:
That's what you're going with?

That the superheroes would be spooked by the League stealing an alien superweapon from an alien invader from an unknown universe who routinely hires supervillains?

Yeah, I'm sure he seems like such a sympathetic victim to absolutely no one, they'd be a bit busy waiting for the inevitable mad laughter and plans for world conquest.

And the government doesn't want a superhero team in this universe, they want slaves. Hence the Ultimen, hence the Suicide Squad and their explosive leashes, and the Zeta project.

Isn't peter on good terms with many people in government?

Darko · Aug 31, 2020

Stsword said:
That's what you're going with?

That the superheroes would be spooked by the League stealing an alien superweapon from an alien invader from an unknown universe who routinely hires supervillains?

Yeah, I'm sure he seems like such a sympathetic victim to absolutely no one, they'd be a bit busy waiting for the inevitable mad laughter and plans for world conquest.

And the government doesn't want a superhero team in this universe, they want slaves. Hence the Ultimen, hence the Suicide Squad and their explosive leashes, and the Zeta project.

Captain Marvel considered Luthor sympathetic, and he's a lunatic.

Peter has helped reform many, many criminals, reducing crime, and has had them use their talents for the benefit of society, pollution due to coal and oil has probably gone down because of him, those enhanced animals may have fed thousands of people who couldn't get food etc.

Peter has a lot of things that make him much more sympathetic compared to Luthor, and I'll remind you that people seemingly forgave Luthor left and right and even considered making him president.

Cadmus wants slaves, the other governments may want their own meta team that they can control, but they probably wouldn't go full on slavery.

It makes sense for a group like Cadmus to exist and prepare in case the good guys go bad, but the things they did in canon were basically encouragements for the good guys to go rogue.

Oh and Peter probably also hires superheroes, like when he hired Roy to help him free Clayface, but there are far more villains than heroes in the world.

Would the League be able to prove that Peter is an alien invader?

Pinklestia · Aug 31, 2020

Ct613hulu said:
Didn't they determine that the reason OL was so easily able to beat them is that he was on a superhero team with their alternates?

That would be the most logical action but fear is not logical.

Hilariously they basically almost acted like Cadmus.

Darko · Aug 31, 2020

Pinklestia said:
That would be the most logical action but fear is not logical.

Hilariously they basically almost acted like Cadmus.

He did tell them that he worked for his League, but they either didn't believe him, or thought he also came from a universe where their alternates are evil.

Mr Zoat · Aug 31, 2020

3rd May
14:16 GMT -5

"…mortal remains of our brothers and sisters in Christ to the earth."

I was somewhat relieved to learn that the inhabitants of this town don't routinely strip their dead for parts.

"That they may in the fullness of time rise once more to aid their living kin."

Not because what they do is less ghoulish, but more because it's less Sheeda-like. 'First' funerals aren't that big a deal in Columbian society, and it looks like that's a tradition the warlock-breed have maintained. It's not until a person's final death that you can fully commemorate their lives. They don't bother trying to convince themselves that the grundyman they've raised is just a mindless and soulless zombie; their theology makes specific reference to the fact that they're not.

"I shall now read from the Gospel of John, chapter eleven."

Abednego looks around the crowd of mourners, who I suspect are gathered here more because it's a social event than because they're particularly interested in what this outsider has to say. They started depositing the bodies as soon as the holes were dug, and I started doing that as soon as they were all identified. The holes were something else that's different from Christian burial as it's practised on Earth; they're only two feet deep to make pulling the grundyman out easier, and the corpse gets rope wrapped around the torso for much the same reason. And they're buried face down so that they can't climb out on their own.

"'Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village…'"

They're actually paying more attention to the ropes than to the bodies, something... I suppose that I should withhold judgement until I observe a second funeral, but I already know that Lord Hades wouldn't like this. I shake my head and turn away as Abednego continues his reading. I offered my aid in making repairs, but unlike Mistress Butler's village the people here have enough of a resource surplus that they can afford to do things in the manner of their choosing. They don't want help from me, and they don't want me to disrupt the magic they use.

"…join us here."

Mistress Butler is talking to one of the village's two surviving 'shapers'. Magic users who specialise in biology, though they'd be totally out of their depth talking to a true biomancer. Everything they do relies on the Sheeda traits that they and the Sheeda creatures possess.

"That is a generous offer, Mistress Ginter, though you will have to forgive me if I am somewhat surprised by it."

"We have empty homes and work enough. Our need is greater than our reluctance to involve those who do not think of our condition as we do. We are not unaware that the Unenlightened threaten you and those other settlements close to their lands."

"Will you also make such an invitation to the other villages?"

"If we can safely make contact with them." She turns to face me. "Is that a thing that you may accomplish?"

"I keep getting told 'no', due to the danger that the spells pose. I doubt that I could do it without the Columbians detecting it."

"Do they not know that you are here?"

"They know that my colleagues and I are heading this way. They don't know exactly where we are or who we're talking to. As I see it, any risk incurred would be yours, so if you want me to make the attempt I'll put the idea to Accomplished Perfect Physician."

"And in return, you would ask us to show you Melmoth's Tomb."

"We're rather hoping this motivates you to do that anyway. But… No. I am willing to do that anyway. Though I suggest that you give more thought to the offer I made to relocate you."

"I accept that you made the offer in the spirit of kindness, but we will not be moved to suit those people."

"I didn't make the offer to please them, I made the offer to preserve your lives. And theirs. To my mind, if two peoples have such irreconcilable differences, moving them to separate locations is a perfectly sensible thing to do."

"No."

"Mistress Ginter-."

"We will not do it. Not while they still take the pledge. Not while their timidity still gives rise to warlocks. We will not abandon the few free-thinkers who can escape from their iron-bounded civilisation."

I bow my head slightly.

"I'm.. saddened to hear it, but very well. If we're fortunate, it will be unnecessary. Regarding the Tomb-?"

"Your Sheeda prisoner can show you its treasures better than any of us. Unless you want a tour of the place."

"I would, actually, though I suppose that it's not a priority." I hesitate. "How are.. your people feeling about this?"

"We will mourn our losses. And our weakness. But more than anything… There is almost a relief to it."

Mistress Butler nods. "That we are not so similar to Melmoth that his kin would see us as their kin; that the accusations of the Columbians are fear-filled lies."

"I… Suppose. I referred more to the truth of our history. That the self-serving version told by the Unenlightened is not pure invention. That Melmoth's kin are as self-serving and cruel as their tale makes them out to be."

"I don't remember hearing them say that about other Sheeda, only about Melmoth himself."

"And how long were you amongst them?"

"No, I'm not suggesting that you're wrong; I'm asking for clarification. What do they say about other Sheeda? I'm working off the stories of a mad scientist who didn't actually see that much and the history of the handful of people who survived the last Harrowing."

Mistress Ginter blinks at me with both sets of eyelids.

"What be a 'harrowing'?"

"You don't know anything about where the Sheeda come from?"

She shakes her head.

"Okay, well, I suppose it can't hurt to give you a summary. The Sheeda are the-." They left in the sixteenth century. They're very unlikely to have a concept of natural selection or evolution. "-Are altered humans from a very long way in the future. They live on Earth, but so much has happened between then and now that it seems like a completely different place. Every so often they travel backwards in time and destroy civilisation. They loot everything they can load into their harvest ships and then return to their own era, but not before burning everything that's left. We don't know exactly how many times they've done it before; they're pretty thorough about destroying all traces. Melmoth was their king, but lost a power struggle with their current queen and had to flee. Exactly why he did any of-" I look around. "-this is a mystery to me, and from the sound of it the Sheeda here didn't know either."

"By whom were they altered?"

Hm. Worth asking, I suppose. Their whole identity is built around their difference, after all.

"I don't know. It could be that they changed over time, or that they changed themselves. I rather get the impression that you've been altering yourselves."

Mistress Ginter nods. "Based upon them. We have not created anything new, not to our knowledge."

"But you know how it might be done?"

"Yes…" She frowns thoughtfully. "Pray excuse me, Orange Lantern. I must.. speak with my people. We will arrange for a guide for you on the morrow."

Cuchulin · Aug 31, 2020

Darko said:
Captain Marvel considered Luthor sympathetic, and he's a lunatic.

That Luthor was being sympathetic and the whole thing was part of a very cunning plan to tarnish Superman's image/reputation which Supes utterly fell for, proving that while his Anti-Luthor paranoia is 99.9% justified it's still paranoia. Also he and Lex tend to make point of making their relationship be something of a pissing contest.

Darko · Aug 31, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
this down don't

' town' not 'down'

Have Talon and Duela been taken to Earth 12 by the Justice League like paragon suggested?

If not, what happened to them?

Handlewithcare · Aug 31, 2020

How does puritan theology deal with timetravel? Evolution will be bad enough, but imagine someone asking to travel back in time to meet Jesus or Mohammed.

Imagine them finding no one.

Mr Zoat · Aug 31, 2020

Darko said:
' town' not 'down'

Thank you, corrected.

Have Talon and Duela been taken to Earth 12 by the Justice League like paragon suggested?

If not, what happened to them?

My provisional answer is that they both returned to their home parallel.

Darko · Aug 31, 2020

Handlewithcare said:
How does puritan theology deal with timetravel? Evolution will be bad enough, but imagine someone asking to travel back in time to meet Jesus or Mohammed.

Imagine them finding no one.

They may not have a concept of time travel.

They probably have no idea who Mohammed even is.

Jesus actually existed in Earth 16, but they may be shocked that he's more the grandson of God, with Gabriel being the actual father.

Mr Zoat said:
My provisional answer is that they both returned to their home parallel.

Sorry, but does this mean that the League eventually let them go back to Earth -14, which is their home universe, or that they went with the League and are still there in Earth 12?

transhumansage · Aug 31, 2020

aw dammit i wanted to find out what happened with the lawsuit

Chojin Patriarch · Aug 31, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
3rd May
14:16 GMT -5

"…mortal remains of our brothers and sisters in Christ to the earth."

I was somewhat relieved to learn that the inhabitants of this down don't routinely strip their dead for parts.

To be honest, that would be pretty damn gruesome. And I doubt they tolerate the movie-style Frankenstein kind of experimentation...

"That they may in the fullness of time rise once more to aid their living kin."

How pragmatic of their faith. Adopting a fact of the local environment as an article of post-mortem disposition.

Not because what they do is less ghoulish, but more because it's less Sheeda-like. 'First' funerals aren't that big a deal in Columbian society, and it looks like that's a tradition the warlock-breed have maintained. It's not until a person's final death that you can fully commemorate their lives. They don't bother trying to convince themselves that the grundyman they're raised is just a mindless and soulless zombie; their theology makes specific reference to the fact that they're not.

Which would make it rather awkward if, say, a murder victim returns as a Grundyman, and is assigned to his murderer's family... I doubt they'd do that sort of thing... Though some might find it reassuring that they'll be able to continue aiding their family after they've passed.

"I shall now read from the Gospel of John, chapter eleven."

Abednego looks around the crowd of mourners, who I suspect are gathered here more because it's a social event than because they're particularly interested in what this outsider has to say. They started depositing the bodies as soon as the holes were dug, and I started doing that as soon as they were all identified. The holes were something else that's different from Christian burial as it's practiced on Earth; they're only two feet deep to make pulling the grundyman out easier, and the corpse gets rope wrapped around the torso for much the same reason. And they're buried face down so that they can't climb out on their own.

All measures to ensure the inevitable Grundymen don't go wandering off devil knows where... Very sensible.

"'Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village…'"

They're actually paying more attention to the ropes than to the bodies, something... I suppose that I should withhold judgement until I observe a second funeral, but I already know that Lord Hades wouldn't like this. I shake my head and turn away as Abednego continues his reading. I offered my aid in making repairs, but unlike Mistress Butler's village the people here have enough of a resource surplus that they can afford to do things in the manner of their choosing. They don't want help from me, and they don't want me to disrupt the magic they use.

And you're probably a reminder of the fact they needed help to throw out the invaders. I can see that sticking in their craw...

"…join us here."

Mistress Butler is talking to one of the villages' two surviving 'shapers'. Magic users who specialise in biology, though they'd be totally out of their depth talking to a true biomancer. Everything they do relies on the Sheeda traits that they and the Sheeda creatures possess.

Like specialised mechanics trained to work on one kind of machinery, and only one. Machinery that's quite adaptable, but requires methods very different to most.

"That is a generous offer, Mistress Ginter, though you will have to forgive me if I am somewhat surprised by it."

"We have empty homes and work enough. Our need is greater than our reluctance to involve those who do not think of our condition as we do. We are not unaware that the Unenlightened threaten you and those other settlements close to their lands."

'Unenlightened' presumably being the devout Columbians. Goes a long way to highlight their outlook.

"Will you also make such an invitation to the other villages?"

"If we can safely make contact with them." She turns to face me. "Is that a thing that you may accomplish?"

Depends. Do you want giant orange flares pointing out each village's location to your nominal foes?

"I keep getting told 'no', due to the danger that the spells pose. I doubt that I could do it without the Columbians detecting it."

"Do they not know that you are here?"

Oh, they know, but they're looking the other way out of politeness. But the second they get an idea of where oath-breakers are, well...

"They know that my colleagues and I are heading this way. They don't know exactly where we are or who we're talking to. As I see it, any risk incurred would be yours, so if you want me to make the attempt I'll put the idea to Accomplished Perfect Physician."

"And in return, you would ask us to show you Melmoth's Tomb."

You make it sound like you're being asked to show off an embarrassing, out-of-the-way tourist trap...

"We're rather hoping this motivates you to do that anyway. But… No. I am willing to do that anyway. Though I suggest that you give more thought to the offer I made to relocate you."

"I accept that you made the offer in the spirit of kindness, but we will not be moved to suit those people."

Why not to spite them? They'll know that people so offensive to their beliefs that they're hunted down are out there, somewhere, beyond their ability to pursue... That'll give them such an itch...

"I didn't make the offer to please them, I made the offer to preserve your lives. And theirs. To my mind, if two peoples have such irreconcilable differences, moving them to separate locations is a perfectly sensible thing to do."

"No."

How stubborn. But I suppose anyone tough enough to forge their own village out in these wilds, in the face of persecution, would be damn hard.

"Mistress Ginter-."

"We will not do it. Not while they still take the pledge. Not while their timidity still gives rise to warlocks. We will not abandon the few free-thinkers who can escape from their iron-bounded civilisation."

Ah... Now that's more understandable. It's still a big risk, but better than leaving them to get hunted down when they cannot find allies outside Columbia.

I bow my head slightly.

"I'm.. saddened to hear it, but very well. If we're fortunate, it will be unnecessary. Regarding the Tomb-?"

"Your Sheeda prisoner can show you its treasures better than any of us. Unless you want a tour of the place."

Can't really take the risk that the Sheeda won't know how to activate some countermeasure and turn it on the heroes.

"I would, actually, though I suppose that it's not a priority." I hesitate. "How are.. your people feeling about this?"

"We will mourn our losses. And our weakness. But more than anything… There is almost a relief to it."

Mistress Butler nods. "That we are not so similar to Melmoth that his kin would see us as their kin; that the accusations of the Columbians are fear-filled lies."

Heh, that's would be a load off their minds. Knowing that they're not corrupted in the way they feared they were. That compared to the Sheeda, they're merely mundane.

"I… Suppose. I referred more to the truth of our history. That the self-serving version told by the Unenlightened is not pure invention. That Melmoth's kin are as self-serving and cruel as their tale makes them out to be."

"I don't remember hearing them say that about other Sheeda, only about Melmoth himself."

"And how long were you amongst them?"

If he'd been amongst them, they'd have felt it when he started killing them.

"No, I'm not suggesting that you're wrong; I'm asking for clarification. What do they say about other Sheeda? I'm working off the stories of a mad scientists who didn't actually see that much and the history of the handful of people who survived the last Harrowing."

Mistress Ginter blinks at me with both sets of eyelids.

"What be a 'harrowing'?"

...Well. I suppose they're too low priority for the Sheeda to concern themselves with. Too small a population, too little resources to be worth stealing... And four eyelids? Hmm. Four eyes, or a secondary reptilian set? love that ambiguity.

"You don't know anything about where the Sheeda come from?"

She shakes her head.

Something lost in the flight from Melmoth's lands, then...

"Okay, well, I suppose it can't hurt to give you a summary. The Sheeda are the-." They left in the sixteenth century. They're very unlikely to have a concept of natural selection or evolution. "-Are altered humans from a very long way in the future. They live on Earth, but so much has happened between then and now that it seems like a completely different place. Every so often they travel backwards in time and destroy civilisation. They loot everything they can load into their harvest ships and then return to their own era, but not before burning everything that's left. We don't know exactly how many times they've done it before; they're pretty thorough about destroying all traces. Melmoth was their king, but lost a power struggle with their current queen and had to flee. Exactly why he did any of-" I look around. "-this is a mystery to me, and from the sound of it the Sheeda here didn't know either."

But they do seem very curious. It's probably a good thing if they returned empty-handed. While I doubt Columbia would be worth Harrowing, they may find the concepts and mutations amongst the people to be worth.. studying. And we've seen how they study things.

"By whom were they altered?"

Hm. Worth asking, I suppose. Their whole identity is built around their difference, after all.

"I don't know. It could be that they changed over time, or that they changed themselves. I rather get the impression that you've been altering yourselves."

...Oh gods, what if the Sheeda are far distant descendants of the Columbians, and this is a metastable time loop...

Mistress Ginter nods. "Based upon them. We have not created anything new, not to our knowledge."

"But you know how it might be done?"

"Yes…" She frowns thoughtfully. "Pray excuse me, Orange Lantern. I must.. speak with my people. We will arrange for a guide for you on the morrow."

I can see OL just twitching at the 'unwarranted' delays. Unfortunately, he'll have to wait.

An interesting look at funeral practices in a culture where the dead don't stay dead. And a number of worrying questions raised about the interactions between Sheeda and Witchworlders... But the delay in setting out makes for a good chance to look in on Renegade's timeline...

Darko · Aug 31, 2020

Chojin Patriarch said:
You make it sound like you're being asked to show off an embarrassing, out-of-the-way tourist trap...

It technically is that.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Why not to spite them? They'll know that people so offensive to their beliefs that they're hunted down are out there, somewhere, beyond their ability to pursue... That'll give them such an itch...

They may not want to abandon their homes, even if they et some kind of victory over the others.

Chojin Patriarch said:
But they do seem very curious. It's probably a good thing if they returned empty-handed. While I doubt Columbia would be worth Harrowing, they may find the concepts and mutations amongst the people to be worth.. studying. And we've seen how they study things.

Or they could just come back to get more torture victims.

Chojin Patriarch said:
...Oh gods, what if the Sheeda are far distant descendants of the Columbians, and this is a metastable time loop...

An interesting and frankly quite plausible theory.

Chicken and egg scenario, which came first.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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