Zig
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The WoG on that is it's "canon adjacent". So like, broad strokes it happened, but you can't rely on it all being the same.
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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
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DAT_NOOB
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I'm pretty sure it was an arrest where the suspect (Doctor Fate) resisted arrest with lethal force (killing one of the deputies in the process).
Radix
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The fact that Paragon specifically chose a jurisdiction that would allow him to avoid the legal technicalities does change the fact that he intentionally ended the existence of a sapient and living being. It was something wrong by legislation that Paragon championed himself. It would be like justifying rape by going to a jurisdiction that defined the precise act as not rape and then saying it wasn't actually rape even though it would be considered rape elsewhere.
Was Sisken actually deputized? Last I checked only OL was. And being deputized doesn't let you deputize others. OL himself described it as an intervention/ambush. Doctor Fate was reasonably in fear of his life by someone hostile to him utilizing fear as a weapon. Just because OL claimed to be deputized doesn't mean that Fate believed him. Especially given the lack of other police presence. Would Fate even have to submit himself to arrest? Last I checked the League can't just randomly get arrested because some cop tricks them to going somewhere, trapping them, and then trying to imprison them.
I think it is also worth noting that Paul only took Eris as a patron after the Roanoke incident. Long after he had already begun planning. I suspect his choice of patron was somewhat calculated precisely to gain some sort of edge against Nabu by going for Chaos. Something that did pay dividends with that chaos apple. So it was someone who swore allegiance to chaos precisely to fight Nabu. Nabu had already rejected the golem. And Paul could have prepared some alternates. Even a few without giving up too much secrecy. But Paul wasn't willing to tolerate a single day and expected Nabu to trust Paul when he had extended no trust of his own to even risk Nabu finding out that Paul was looking for alternate hosts. I don't see how Paul trying to suggest a rotation scheme would be any more likely to tip off the assassination attempt than the golem body he presented was? He presented that alternative straight to Nabu's face. And yet asking other magic users with no contact to Nabu if they would consider a rotation schedule was somehow a security risk? Nothing of his inquiries would have exposed his plan.
DAT_NOOB
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I thought Paul joined the metropolitan police force and deputized everyone else? I might be misremembering.
Under English Law (and some American law) Nabu committed a variety of offences not related to his vigilante work, even though the league has a charter that permits them a great amount of leeway they can still be arrested for other crimes.
Murder has a general definition with a series of legal loopholes that make something, 'not murder', the killing of Nabu fulfilled the requirements so that it was not murder any more than other person killed for a legitimate reason by law enforcement.
Heaven knows how many arrest warrant's have been put out for Batman over his publication history.
Radix
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I would say securing a host body is directly tied to his vigilante work.
So if I go somewhere with laxer laws and kill them. Did I not murder them even if it would be considered murder elsewhere?
Doccer
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Because he's an American.
And she isn't worshipped in the traditional way other gods are worshipped so the goddess bit comes off as something of a hoax.
DAT_NOOB
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Yes.
The easiest example would be the fact that there are numerous jurisdictions with different rules for self-defence.
In some places, if someone attempts to rape a woman, but she was carrying a knife for the purpose of self-defence and kills her attack she has committed murder, in other jurisdictions that would fall under self-defence.
Difference countries also have different rules related to the level of force that police are allowed to bring to bear to apprehend a suspect. Although I imagine that even in Detective comics America if you had a situation where a police officer was attempting to arrest a superpowered individual and that individual killed several deputies or at least (vigilantes) during the arrest and had to use lethal force it probably wouldn't be found as murder.
Paul did mention this when confronting the Justice League.
Also, you seem to have forgotten, that he didn't do it in London to avoid a murder charge, he did it so that the London wizard would be able to keep Nabu from escaping. (the UK does not have a duty to let suspects escape clause for police as far as I know).
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Cuchulin
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Did he? Seems to me like he actually said 'I am a LORD of Order and your superior, I don't explain my business to you.' He didn't give examples or do anything beyond just claim that he was doing something "super important".
But Paul's meta knowledge and in universe research told him that Order isn't the same as what humans would consider good or lawful.
Except that Paul looked into every other option he could think of, Nabu was noted as trying run Kent Nelson's life to the point where he was put on a shelf for the better part of a century, was distrusted/disliked by much of the rest of the league to the point where several of them were planning to do something about it and Paul was still giving Nabu options/ways to avoid getting killed to the very end.
Exactly, Paul did it in London as that was the best place to corner Nabu and keep him in one place long enough to issue an ultimatum on freeing Zatara.
Radix
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He did it for both. Also calling this a legitimate arrest is a stretch.
Orange Lantern used political connections from his business work to get deputized specifically so he could claim authority to imprison Nabu. He wasnt actual police or pursuing a criminal the London police were after. He lured Nabu to the only place he could get real authoriry and where he could kill without reprecussions. None of the crimes occurred on British soil and no warrent was issued. I doubt he even went before a judge and presented evidence to justify the sheer firepower he brought to bear.
This wasnt a legitimate arrest. It was a assasination that pretended to be an abduction that pretended to be an arrest. None of what he did there was police procedure.
I mean even checking UK law, posse comitatus was repealed by statute. So I am not sure how OL could really be deputized.
It would be like Lex bribing the MPD to let him be a deputy and then arresting Superman for jaywalking. It is completely absurd to think that he could jsut gather up local PD to arredt a League member. Sure they couls be charged for criminal acts. But they wouldnt be under the jurisdiction od local PD given they are federally recognized and UN chartered. They would be handled diplomatically akin to diplomats or federal agents.
Radix
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If Paul was really given options he would have gotten alternative hosts ready. How is it reasonable that he should trust OL? Especially given that OL has a history of being a rules lawyer with agreements. If Nabu voluntarily came off, Paul was shoving him into a shelf again.
Nabu did control nelson a bit. But then Nelson's solution was just abandoning him instead of getting a real replacment of any kind. The alternating host idea was simple and could even have been done by Nelson.
Paul wanted it his way. No room for compromise. Not a sign of being reasonable. Nabu had already said that the golem body was not suitable. Simoly presenting it again doesnt make it reasonable. Paul didnt even really explore other hosts given he didnt interview anyone. What would happen if he ciuldnt find anyone after Nabu was off? Would he put him on Zatara again?
Cuchulin
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As I remember Paul did offer suggestions. Also, it's not like Nabu even considered enough to say 'here is what I require in a suitable host' despite having had multiple hosts at the same time in the past. Instead Nabu's attitude was 'I am NABU Lord of Order. You dare question ME.'
As I remember he even treated Justice League meeting almost as if they weren't worthy of his time.
Also let's not forget that NABU was the one that took hostages and was riding a man he had enslaved harder than a horse competing in the Kentucky derby.
If Nabu had been at all trusting or reasonable he would have at the very least offered to switch back and fourth between using Zatanna and her father,
Darko
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And your renegade saying those terrible things about Metron was spot-on.
I though his refusal to help Victor was bad, but sweet God, what he did to Razer...
Giovanni himself explained that Nabu ended several threats that he wasn't aware of and which he couldn't hope to get rid if without Nabu's help.
Nabu didn't even really look into the golem to see if it can work.
He rejected reading any notes Paul may have and destroyed the body before he examined it.
Darko
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"their way"
Regnancy (supplementary, Renegade Option)
Mr Zoat
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30th October 2012
09:23 GMT -7
I don't look around as Luna trots up to me and drapes her neck over my right shoulder.
"You are distressed."
I look at the foetal mes in the jars in front of me. I've been subjecting them to every analysis I can think of, and none of the results are good.
"The greatest terrors are those conjured by our own minds, for the material universe is limited to threats which are possible. The imagination has no such restriction."
She snorts quietly. "You are not much given to poetry. Explain your concern to Us. The infants are clearly long dead, if they were even brought fully to term. Did you find the remains of your true mother?"
"No. And please don't even whisper anything like that around Mortalla."
Luna tilts her head so that her left eye enters the field of vision of my right. It's an awkward pose because it involves her horn resting on my forehead, but I appreciate the reassurance that she's trying to give. And the resolve she's showing in the face of this grisly sight. I reach up with my right hand and rest it against the right side of her neck.
"We shall not, though We believe that she would remember having birthed a babe of your complexion."
"Maybe she birthed one of them." I gesture to them with my left hand. "I don't have any sort of hang up about being a clone, but I wouldn't be him. Or… I can't fathom why they exist."
"You are a powerful warrior and capable leader."
"Thank you for the affirmation, dear heart." I turn my head right, kissing her lightly on the nose. "But I haven't forgotten."
"That is not what We meant. It seems to Us that your loathsome father may have decided that growing replicas was a more reliable method of creating commanders than conventional training."
"Plausible, but where are they?" I reach out with my left hand and tap the middle jar. "It's hard to tell when that facility was in operation, but it's been there for decades at least. He's had plenty of time to create more of me…" I shake my head. "Nothing."
"Are your unborn brothers whole?"
"Some are. Others were malformed, and some appear to have been either dissected or vivisected."
"Is there some difference that explains why they were treated in such a manner?"
"None that I can see." I turn my left wrist, rotating the jar in the half-hope that the secret is written on the back. "Can I ask you an extremely personal question?"
"Given the intimacy which we have already shared, We think that you are somewhat tardy in enquiring about anything further."
"It's not the same for Apokoliptians. Emotional intimacy is more significant than physical intimacy, though I…" I nuzzle her nose. "Hope that you're looking forward to your first time as a biped as much as I am."
She nervously stamps her rear left leg, but I can feel her catch herself doing it and make it land quietly. "We imagine that we are a little more apprehensive than you were. The bipedal form is quite unbalanced, and the forelimbs are not designed to resist compression."
"I'll talk you through it. It's about Nightmare Moon."
"We surmised as much. You may ask."
"Do you remember how Nightmare Moon thought? Not.. what she wanted; everyone standing near her knew that the moment she bellowed it at them. How she thought, how she felt, what she liked and disliked… How she made decisions."
"We try not to dwell 'pon it. Shorn of Our hesitancy, her moods were as intense as her expression of them. We are uncertain if that was because she was mentally healthy -though malevolent- and We had… Not been for some considerable time. Or-" She tosses her mane. "-if it was a product of her megalomania. Her memories are… Something of a blur to Us. Doth that help you?"
I shake my head. "Not with this. As far as I can tell, none of Grayven's memories are barred to me. But it helps… Helps me to understand what you went through, and I do appreciate you feeling able to do that."
"You said that he knew aught of what he had uncovered."
"Or he didn't think it was a big deal. There wasn't anything there that could have helped with his fleet-building, so he just didn't bother thinking about it. I don't know."
"Are there any amongst his retinue with whom you could enquire?"
"Not if I wanted to maintain the illusion that I am him. I get the clear impression that he was not much given to collegiality."
"If We may be honest, We were surprised to discover that you were."
"Much as I'd like to be able to claim to be the greatest being there has ever been in any universe, it's simply the case that… Aside from the Source, all beings are limited in their own ways. There are things that I don't know or don't understand, and working with others is only sensible. It is a foolish ruler who makes their advisors too intimidated to offer advice."
"Is that how you see them? Your fellow illuminated?"
"Ah, don't-. Call them that. It has other connotations in English. And… No. I'm… First amongst equals, but they're my guys. People I can go to in order to discuss things with people I can talk to as equals."
"Have you discussed this matter with them?"
"No. This is a New God thing and I need to be able to handle it without them, because it's my thing. I could ask Scott, or… I don't know, cash in that favour Izaya owes me for a consultation, but I can't imagine either of them being involved in this."
"Are there none on Apokolips with whom you could consult?"
I exhale slowly through clenched lips. "Sure. Absolutely no one I'd want to give dead foetal clones of me, and no one I could think of who wouldn't do something nightmarish with them."
"Given their nature, we are curious as to why you would give them the opportunity, rather than simply treating with them as you did with Chrysalis."
"Because Darkseid Is. Can't risk it."
"Do you not also possess the Omega Effect?"
"I suspect so. I know, I usually say that 'a weapon you don't know how to use is a weapon that belongs to your enemy', but it in this case that's literally true. I can't gamble everything on a first strike with an attack he's known about for centuries and I certainly can't assume that I'm immune to his. I can't risk the escalation at this stage."
"Hath any other New God used its power before him?"
"Not as far as I know. Yuga Khan was more powerful generally, but I don't think he used the Omega Force. Uncle Drax was supposed to merge with it, but that didn't work out."
"Why not?"
"Desaad sabotaged his equipment as a favour to Father. He ended up getting badly burned, which was still an improvement on what everyone else who'd tried it got."
"Is there some aspect to the physiology of your family that renders them proof against it?"
"Not as far as I know." I frown slightly. "What, you think Darkseid was trying to create Omega Effect-capable clone soldiers?"
"We do not know enough of your people to know his mind. Is it possible?"
"If he… Isolated what it was about his mindset or physiology that enabled him to channel it… Maybe?"
"And further… Is it possible that none are the original?"
09:23 GMT -7
I don't look around as Luna trots up to me and drapes her neck over my right shoulder.
"You are distressed."
I look at the foetal mes in the jars in front of me. I've been subjecting them to every analysis I can think of, and none of the results are good.
"The greatest terrors are those conjured by our own minds, for the material universe is limited to threats which are possible. The imagination has no such restriction."
She snorts quietly. "You are not much given to poetry. Explain your concern to Us. The infants are clearly long dead, if they were even brought fully to term. Did you find the remains of your true mother?"
"No. And please don't even whisper anything like that around Mortalla."
Luna tilts her head so that her left eye enters the field of vision of my right. It's an awkward pose because it involves her horn resting on my forehead, but I appreciate the reassurance that she's trying to give. And the resolve she's showing in the face of this grisly sight. I reach up with my right hand and rest it against the right side of her neck.
"We shall not, though We believe that she would remember having birthed a babe of your complexion."
"Maybe she birthed one of them." I gesture to them with my left hand. "I don't have any sort of hang up about being a clone, but I wouldn't be him. Or… I can't fathom why they exist."
"You are a powerful warrior and capable leader."
"Thank you for the affirmation, dear heart." I turn my head right, kissing her lightly on the nose. "But I haven't forgotten."
"That is not what We meant. It seems to Us that your loathsome father may have decided that growing replicas was a more reliable method of creating commanders than conventional training."
"Plausible, but where are they?" I reach out with my left hand and tap the middle jar. "It's hard to tell when that facility was in operation, but it's been there for decades at least. He's had plenty of time to create more of me…" I shake my head. "Nothing."
"Are your unborn brothers whole?"
"Some are. Others were malformed, and some appear to have been either dissected or vivisected."
"Is there some difference that explains why they were treated in such a manner?"
"None that I can see." I turn my left wrist, rotating the jar in the half-hope that the secret is written on the back. "Can I ask you an extremely personal question?"
"Given the intimacy which we have already shared, We think that you are somewhat tardy in enquiring about anything further."
"It's not the same for Apokoliptians. Emotional intimacy is more significant than physical intimacy, though I…" I nuzzle her nose. "Hope that you're looking forward to your first time as a biped as much as I am."
She nervously stamps her rear left leg, but I can feel her catch herself doing it and make it land quietly. "We imagine that we are a little more apprehensive than you were. The bipedal form is quite unbalanced, and the forelimbs are not designed to resist compression."
"I'll talk you through it. It's about Nightmare Moon."
"We surmised as much. You may ask."
"Do you remember how Nightmare Moon thought? Not.. what she wanted; everyone standing near her knew that the moment she bellowed it at them. How she thought, how she felt, what she liked and disliked… How she made decisions."
"We try not to dwell 'pon it. Shorn of Our hesitancy, her moods were as intense as her expression of them. We are uncertain if that was because she was mentally healthy -though malevolent- and We had… Not been for some considerable time. Or-" She tosses her mane. "-if it was a product of her megalomania. Her memories are… Something of a blur to Us. Doth that help you?"
I shake my head. "Not with this. As far as I can tell, none of Grayven's memories are barred to me. But it helps… Helps me to understand what you went through, and I do appreciate you feeling able to do that."
"You said that he knew aught of what he had uncovered."
"Or he didn't think it was a big deal. There wasn't anything there that could have helped with his fleet-building, so he just didn't bother thinking about it. I don't know."
"Are there any amongst his retinue with whom you could enquire?"
"Not if I wanted to maintain the illusion that I am him. I get the clear impression that he was not much given to collegiality."
"If We may be honest, We were surprised to discover that you were."
"Much as I'd like to be able to claim to be the greatest being there has ever been in any universe, it's simply the case that… Aside from the Source, all beings are limited in their own ways. There are things that I don't know or don't understand, and working with others is only sensible. It is a foolish ruler who makes their advisors too intimidated to offer advice."
"Is that how you see them? Your fellow illuminated?"
"Ah, don't-. Call them that. It has other connotations in English. And… No. I'm… First amongst equals, but they're my guys. People I can go to in order to discuss things with people I can talk to as equals."
"Have you discussed this matter with them?"
"No. This is a New God thing and I need to be able to handle it without them, because it's my thing. I could ask Scott, or… I don't know, cash in that favour Izaya owes me for a consultation, but I can't imagine either of them being involved in this."
"Are there none on Apokolips with whom you could consult?"
I exhale slowly through clenched lips. "Sure. Absolutely no one I'd want to give dead foetal clones of me, and no one I could think of who wouldn't do something nightmarish with them."
"Given their nature, we are curious as to why you would give them the opportunity, rather than simply treating with them as you did with Chrysalis."
"Because Darkseid Is. Can't risk it."
"Do you not also possess the Omega Effect?"
"I suspect so. I know, I usually say that 'a weapon you don't know how to use is a weapon that belongs to your enemy', but it in this case that's literally true. I can't gamble everything on a first strike with an attack he's known about for centuries and I certainly can't assume that I'm immune to his. I can't risk the escalation at this stage."
"Hath any other New God used its power before him?"
"Not as far as I know. Yuga Khan was more powerful generally, but I don't think he used the Omega Force. Uncle Drax was supposed to merge with it, but that didn't work out."
"Why not?"
"Desaad sabotaged his equipment as a favour to Father. He ended up getting badly burned, which was still an improvement on what everyone else who'd tried it got."
"Is there some aspect to the physiology of your family that renders them proof against it?"
"Not as far as I know." I frown slightly. "What, you think Darkseid was trying to create Omega Effect-capable clone soldiers?"
"We do not know enough of your people to know his mind. Is it possible?"
"If he… Isolated what it was about his mindset or physiology that enabled him to channel it… Maybe?"
"And further… Is it possible that none are the original?"
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Idkusername
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I don't any -> I don't have any
nought?
Mr Zoat
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Thank you, corrected.
Thank you, corrected.
No, that's correct. It's like 'flammable' and 'inflammable'.
The SI was an actual Special Constable of the Metropolitan Police. For obvious reasons, numerous jurisdictions have procedures for recruiting people with superpowers, and his training with the League covered the knowledge requirements.
Yes, crimes were occurring on British soil. Each of the things he charged Nabu with was happening right in front of him the moment Nabu arrived.
Darko
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"mess in"
"I've been"
"enters"
"involves"
If he's in pony form then it should be "right hoof"
"don't have"
Unless he gave up on it.
Given their more spiritual natures, and their more psychopathic natures, emotional intimacy would be of higher value to them.
Last thing you want is for everyone to be too intimidated by you.
You don't wanna go out like Stalin did.
Like Illuminati, which fits.
Izaya may at least know about this.
Well, there's Himon, but even he may be wary.
Hmm, after he saw that Actually Grayven could wield it, he may have tried to do that.
Or Actually Grayven isn't the original Grayven.
Handlewithcare
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I know Luna comes from a far more violent time but she is handling the dead-clone-babies-in-jars remarkably calmly.
Maybe because she senses Grayven needs her right now?
Maybe because she senses Grayven needs her right now?
cerberus beasty
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So not Grayven clones but Darksied clones. Well I guess if I had a kid like Kalibak I wouldn't in nature for a legacy either.
Chojin Patriarch
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Given what we last saw, I'm not surprised. Anyone would have been a little freaked out by finding dozens, possibly hundreds of fetal clones. That they were of the local Grayven? Even freakier.
True enough. Especially given the Renegade's metaknowledge of some of Darkseid's stranger ploys and plans.
Got to keep up that facade, after all, even if you technically are the only Grayven now. No telling how much He knows...
Especially if he was a big baby...
Perhaps they were all intended to be such, but some defect disqualified them...
The problem is, what could have disqualified them? Did one of the more complete models rebel, break free and escape into the galaxy? Is that where the local Grayven came from? And no-one realised he was not the real deal because the original disappeared?
Or did something else distract him? After all, He plays the longest games. What's one experiment forgotten or discarded?
And that's something the Rings could easily have determined for him, never mind his own tech.
Never mind sleeping together, they've shared space in each other's heads. Hard to be more intimate than that.
But it has some nice other things to make up for it, you know... Wait until you get your first massage. With fingers and everything!
Yeah, that would be a sensitive subject for her...
That's probably a mercy. Especially the thousand years of sitting around the Moon.
He might well have had a programmed blind spot concerning the facility, if he was a product of it...
Too risky. Such an action, so long after they located the facility, would be suspicious.
The joy of playing pretend so hard you became the disguise.
That's probably a key part of why he was more successful, and why Darkseid decided to acknowledge him. Even He has advisors, though He maintains that He doesn't need them.
It's definitely a secondary power amongst a lot of the alternate Pauls. Especially those with Orange Rings.
None he could reach easily without revealing his hand. And when dealing with Apokalips, you need to keep those cards close to your chest.
Because he isn't the biggest dog in the game, and the one that is... IS.
A pale imitation of it. A bludgeon, where Darkseid's is a scalpel.
Hell, given who made you into this present form, He probably has a live feed from your own head.
Gee...
Why do you think? Or rather, Who?...That is a good point.Something about the line of Apokalips' rulers that allows them to draw upon the power, use it, if they dare? That's... Awfully similar to Zeus, when you think about it.
He probably compartmentalises His mind so much, it could be possible.
...And now we see why the Renegade has people.
It's not an impossible idea. I doubt Grayven was in the public eye the whole time he went off and started building his own little empire. If he disappeared for a century or two, who would know, or even ask, where he'd gone? But it still raises questions of why there weren't other Grayvens out there. Was the one a fluke? An escapee Darkseid allowed to roam for Science!? Unfortunately, asking Him would not be a smart idea...
Darko
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If he was a clone then he may have been the only successful one and Darkseid wanted to see howw he would behave.
And if he wasn't a clone, Darkseid still may have wanted to see how'd he behave.
Senevri
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A-ha! That's the reason Darkseid wasn't surprised to see another, different defective Grayven running around. Didn't click until just now.
It's not like they are pony clones. I think I have seen such samples in a biology museum... Albeit, not en masse
dw7thdoctor
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On the Nabu, the discussion. Say you have a gun pointed at a kidnapper and he is about to get away with the hostage. You have a clean shot. Do you let the kidnapper go and continue abusing his hostage or do you take the shot to save the victim at the cost of the kidnapper's life?
Mr Zoat
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No. Mes. The plural of 'me'.
Thank you, corrected.
He's not. Hooves don't bend that way.
moralrelativity
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Ah yes, that makes so much sense now.
Duke Long
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'or', I think.
DAT_NOOB
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Actually, that is a question, can British Police actually arrest you if they catch you while perpetrating a crime? I've heard in some jurisdictions police can't arrest you if they see you committing a crime in front of them.
Breadnaught
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... I'm filing that under "dumb stuff circulating the internet."
Yes, they can arrest you if they see you committing a crime.
DAT_NOOB
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I probably should mention I didn't mean "some British Jurisdictions" I meant "some Jurisdictions" in the more general sense.
Breadnaught
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If you mean "they can't arrest people outside of their jurisdiction, while on holiday or something." Then yes, that's true for all cops.