Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[Steady Gaze]

When my life gets busy I do tend to take a hooves-off approach to the votes because I usually end up liking the "wisdom of the crowd". Though this time it seems a bit against my natural inclinations, which would be something like lore-promote/lore-champion, windigos-cautious (not willing to pay in suspicion to be alerted), evidence-downplay/evidence-ignore (I'm worried about backfires).

Not that my opinion matters since everyone has decided already, but specifically, I am kind of surprised everyone wants to outright burn the evidence. First, there really is no guarantee it will go anywhere. Second, if it does, there are plenty of deflections we can supply, such as "hmm guess Copper chose to have some work commissioned under my pseudonym for entirely literary reasons" and "I am a public figure… she did try to assasinate me, so she for sure knows I exist". We also have a "favor from authority" card, for sure. My first instinct wasn't even downplay but to outright ignore it. Meanwhile, we are guaranteed to generate some suspicion by outright burning the documents. I guess people are reasoning that it replaces "Damning Evidence" with "Tentative Evidence"? I suppose the QM did refer to it as "Damning Evidence"…

There is a "Damning Evidence" card on your board, and you can either burn it, keep an eye on it, or forget about it.

Click to shrink...

…so the situation may call for it.

I did find Pittauro's reasoning

If they don't, well, we can come up with an excuse, and it will be our word vs our accuser's word.

Maybe the books contained detailed instructions for the summoning of Windigoes (or the "composite zombie", I forget their name), and we "panicked" and wanted to keep it secret as it was too "easy" to do.

Maybe we can say they were cursed.

Maybe we can say the spontaneously burned themselves after we read them, possibly as some kind of magical failsafe.

Click to shrink...

to be somewhat convincing/reassuring.

Second, I was extremely torn between lore-champion and lore-promote. But looking at the standings just now, I realized I was sad about lore-champion starting to lose, so that kind of told me how I really feel. Perhaps my reasons are suboptimal, but

[X] Plan Feels Good To Be A Lore Master

outright lore-championing just feels a lot cooler . We've gone this far in planting the evidence, so I feel like this is a situation where we just go for broke. As others mentioned, we also have a legit cutie mark reason for "getting" it. The one thing that gives me pause is that the option explicitly calls out that it might be suspicious (it raises the question of how we know this works), but my trust is in the fact that the QM has said they will only give us options that Velvet Covers could conceivably do, and she isn't outright suicidal right now.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

windigos-cautious (not willing to pay in suspicion to be alerted), evidence-downplay/evidence-ignore (I'm worried about backfires).

Click to shrink...

Just a small thing, but there is no suspicion cost to Windigos-alert. Welcome to Equestria, where your leader personally interceding to deal with especially sketchy shit is the cultural norm due to Princesses.

 

[Bakkasama]

Not that my opinion matters since everyone has decided already, but specifically, I am kind of surprised everyone wants to outright burn the evidence. First, there really is no guarantee it will go anywhere. Second, if it does, there are plenty of deflections we can supply, such as "hmm guess Copper chose to have some work commissioned under my pseudonym for entirely literary reasons" and "I am a public figure… she did try to assasinate me, so she for sure knows I exist". We also have a "favor from authority" card, for sure. My first instinct wasn't even downplay but to outright ignore it. Meanwhile, we are guaranteed to generate some suspicion by outright burning the documents. I guess people are reasoning that it replaces "Damning Evidence" with "Tentative Evidence"? I suppose the QM did refer to it as "Damning Evidence"…

Click to shrink...

They are lore manuscript written by our hooves and we are about to prove that the lores are real. Plus anypony that reaches the first door of the mansus will see the Path through nightmares ritual. Burnong them is the safest choice, otherwise it will be obvious that we knew about the lores for a while.

 

[spiderhellian]

It turns a potential problem into a guaranteed one, it's fair.

But also that potential problem is amazingly bad, like Celestia-incineration bad, while the other one feels a bit less high stakes. Not good — trust isn't a resource to spend, it's something that is earned and maintained — but hopefully better.

 

[Sveta08]

Afternoon.
Pardon for not being the most articulate or active in this discussion, I am sick and this has made it hard to focus.

But, there is... eh? Two? Three? One? A thing or three I wanted to point out. Conditions, really.


If we Champion the Lores, we cannot Downplay the Evidence, we have to Burn it. Giving people the "Yeah, this works, please ignore that the info retrieved from an evil gang on the stuff is in my writing" isn't gonna fly. You want them to know? Cover it up then.

If we Alert about the Wendigos, it is better to either Champion or Promote the Lores. The less it feels like they are chasing what might be fairy tales, the better.

And the big one is in two parts.
If we Burn the Evidence, we are going to have to justify it to Beyond Reproach. Really, we are gonna have to justify a lot of things to him, but burning the documents puts him in a hot position. After all, the only person who can question that decision is Celestia. So does he trust you, or Celestia more? You want him in your pocket before you force that question. And, that discussion is not something we can control the timing of.

If we Champion the Lores AND Burn the Evidence, that paints the worst possible picture to Reproach and similar in the organization. Doing just one will hurt reputation, doing both would be suicide for the implication it creates. That Velvet was previously affiliated with this gang, one that tried to murder her mind, that she fought off and they were destroyed by something terrible... and Velvet "found" things there that she took her authority to destroy. Pair that with Velvet's extreme competence and the info that they had on the Noble trying to extort the country... What is the phrase? "Threats from within and without?"

So, the only way that things look right in my eyes is...

Promote
Alert
Burn

 

[Bakkasama]

Afternoon.
Pardon for not being the most articulate or active in this discussion, I am sick and this has made it hard to focus.

But, there is... eh? Two? Three? One? A thing or three I wanted to point out. Conditions, really.


If we Champion the Lores, we cannot Downplay the Evidence, we have to Burn it. Giving people the "Yeah, this works, please ignore that the info retrieved from an evil gang on the stuff is in my writing" isn't gonna fly. You want them to know? Cover it up then.

If we Alert about the Wendigos, it is better to either Champion or Promote the Lores. The less it feels like they are chasing what might be fairy tales, the better.

And the big one is in two parts.
If we Burn the Evidence, we are going to have to justify it to Beyond Reproach. Really, we are gonna have to justify a lot of things to him, but burning the documents puts him in a hot position. After all, the only person who can question that decision is Celestia. So does he trust you, or Celestia more? You want him in your pocket before you force that question. And, that discussion is not something we can control the timing of.

If we Champion the Lores AND Burn the Evidence, that paints the worst possible picture to Reproach and similar in the organization. Doing just one will hurt reputation, doing both would be suicide for the implication it creates. That Velvet was previously affiliated with this gang, one that tried to murder her mind, that she fought off and they were destroyed by something terrible... and Velvet "found" things there that she took her authority to destroy. Pair that with Velvet's extreme competence and the info that they had on the Noble trying to extort the country... What is the phrase? "Threats from within and without?"

So, the only way that things look right in my eyes is...

Promote
Alert
Burn

Click to shrink...

This post has brought to my attention that I am making an assumption about the manuscripts, because the poster is making the exact opposite one.

The manuscripts don't have our name but are in our hoofwritting. This we know.

I had assumed that we would burn them before they hoofwritting was analized, as it would make sense and Sveta seems to assume the Reproach already knows that it is our hoofwritting. Is there a canon omake that I am missing in which the manuscripts were already analized? I had assumed that there wasn't since the option says that only the pony in charge of the evidence would know.

 

[OurLadyOfWires]

No evidence has been analyzed by a competent detective yet. They have already been read and studied, enough for the ponies in evidence to be able to produce an inventory list for you. But for all relevant purposes you can assume you are using your authority to get "first picks" on whatever you vote for.

 

[Steady Gaze]

Point taken on the bad combo of simultaneously revealing the lores and not burning the evidence before anypony properly reads it. (And I understand the manuscript(s) do not have our name on them, but they are in our hoofwriting?)

I guess if we truly wanted to minimize suspicion, we should've dealt with the Copper situation… ahem… off the books. Had we not chosen to reveal we were attacked, we could've healed up for a turn, scrounged up another expedition for the Bureau to go on, and then planted some lore knowledge there. But that would have delayed the Bureau's lore acquisition by one turn compared to how events have unfolded presently.

Actually, a meta-comment tangent: you know, I don't know if the QM would actually roll a dice to decide if there is more evidence connecting us to Copper's cult that we don't know about, or if they would be too scared of people crying that the game is unfair, but personally, I actually find these types of "realistically" (in the verisimilitude sense, not that talking ponies and occult magics are actually "realistic") imperfect information games to be far more fascinating. I must remind everyone that when Jade scried, she did not reach the final breakpoint or breakpoints, although she did score 138 after bonuses and a reroll.

[Roll: 94 32 + 14 (Jade Whistle) + 40 (Lantern 3) – 10 (Wards) = 138]


[6 success thresholds reached]


Information acquired:
1 – Copper Secateur's location has been confirmed to be in Manehattan. (Scouting the city for whereabouts of her presence is no longer necessary)
2 – Copper Secateur's precise location has been discovered. (Searching the city for her location is no longer necessary)
3 – The precise location of her moveable assets has been discovered. (Searching her stronghold for said assets, during the assault, is no longer necessary)
4 – The general layout of her defenses has been scouted. (General information acquired)
5 – The finer details of her defenses have been scouted. (Useful information acquired, plus situational bonuses)
6 – The precise location of an important item (Velvet Covers' original Manuscripts) has been discovered. (Additional options available during the assault)
7 onwards – [THRESHOLD NOT REACHED]

Click to shrink...

This would imply there is information we didn't know about that would have been useful for the raid. And perhaps, more evidence implicating us? Now, Velvet did look over the evidence manifest, but she may not know if an item is incriminating without examining it. On the other hand, this was already an excellent scrying, so overall I would kind of assume they wouldn't. Perhaps it was a trail to Neighnia or something. But hey, a small chance is still a chance. As in many things, one must always be prepared to roll with the punches.

Hovering high above the gathering, a floating eye looks up from its close review of some pages levitating next to it, and with focused blinks it begins a 'dialogue' of sorts with the blue-white pattern that decorates wall nearby.

Click to shrink...

I guess better late than never, but thanks for including me in the Christmas photo, hehe. I guess if I wanted something less impersonal, I could use an image of a ponysona as a picture. I would recommend pony.town as an easy free way to make an original character. In fact, if you're curious:

Spoiler: My prior attempts at ponysonas

 

[Venerable Ro]

[X] Plan Feels Good To Be A Lore Master

I have been arguing this entire time that we can and should obfuscate our unreasonable skill with the Lores by way of an entirely reasonable Equestrian Talent with the Lores. The fact that this actually is our Talent makes it all the more plausible, especially since there are doubtlessly many examples out there of a pony discovering the true meaning of their Mark late in life.

Just look at Troubleshoes.

Refuge in audacity, we take it and run with it with all the glee of a pony finally discovering her true purpose in life, it's even honest since we really did just discover that very thing.

 

[Bakkasama]

[X] Plan Feels Good To Be A Lore Master

I have been arguing this entire time that we can and should obfuscate our unreasonable skill with the Lores by way of an entirely reasonable Equestrian Talent with the Lores. The fact that this actually is our Talent makes it all the more plausible, especially since there are doubtlessly many examples out there of a pony discovering the true meaning of their Mark late in life.

Just look at Troubleshoes.

Refuge in audacity, we take it and run with it with all the glee of a pony finally discovering her true purpose in life, it's even honest since we really did just discover that very thing.

Click to shrink...

You do realize that everypony knows that for a cutie mark to appear, you must have done the action it represents, right? Telling ponies that our special talent is learning the lores means that we already knew about the lores. Even if we tell them that we just didn't know that what we did was lore related until we got these books, that just sounds a bit too convenient.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

You do realize that everypony knows that for a cutie mark to appear, you must have done the action it represents, right? Telling ponies that our special talent is learning the lores means that we already knew about the lores. Even if we tell them that we just didn't know that what we did was lore related until we got these books, that just sounds a bit too convenient.

Click to shrink...

Well shit. That kind of kills my enthusiasm for Champion. I guess promote would be better for something our Cutie Mark facilitates, but is not directly for (even though it is in our case, we must pretend it is for like, I don't know, being really good at investigating and organizing things in general and this "new magic" responds really well to that approach, or something).

Sigh

[X] Plan Feels Good To Be Back
-[X] (Lore-Promote)
-[X] (Windigos-Alert)
-[X] (Evidence-Burn)

 

[Greymere]

Well shit. That kind of kills my enthusiasm for Champion. I guess promote would be better for something our Cutie Mark facilitates, but is not directly for (even though it is in our case, we must pretend it is for like, I don't know, being really good at investigating and organizing things in general and this "new magic" responds really well to that approach, or something).

Click to shrink...

We could also "realize" it later. Right now we're looking at the most basic of basics. Once we start "learning" the Lores though, maybe we could have a "realization" of what exactly we accidentally did to ourselves and why all this Lore stuff is easy for us to learn. Basically once we "know" enough SH to detect the multi-Velvet anchor and connect the dots on "thing I did as a filly which gave me my cutie mark" and "the Lores".

 

[Venerable Ro]

You do realize that everypony knows that for a cutie mark to appear, you must have done the action it represents, right? Telling ponies that our special talent is learning the lores means that we already knew about the lores. Even if we tell them that we just didn't know that what we did was lore related until we got these books, that just sounds a bit too convenient.

Click to shrink...

How so? We simply tell people how we got the thing and there you are, "futzing around with an old spellbook as a filly and did something unexpected". Equestria quite literally runs on things that would otherwise be a bit too convenient. Again, there is firmly established precedent for ponies having Talents that they either don't quite understand or spend a good portion of their lives misinterpreting.

A Mark of a book could easily be interpreted as a Talent for literature, or stewardship, or magic, or history, or even storytelling. All things that Velvet Covers has dabbled in over the course of her life.

 

[Steady Gaze]

Now, let me qualify this by saying this is all up to how the QM interprets both of these things, but…

• Ostensibly, a cutie mark appears when a pony realizes what their purpose in life or what they're good at is.
• And yet, we have two examples of ponies in the show who deeply misunderstood what their cutie mark means: Troubleshoes in Appleloosa's Most Wanted (being a failure -> being a clown), and Diamond Tiara in Crusaders of the Lost Mark (bossing people around and blackmailing them -> being a good leader and using people's talents).
• We also have a brief example of Bulk Biceps in On Your Marks who was not aware of one of the nuances of his mark, although it's kind of played for laughs (he says he ran out of things to lift around Ponyville, and the CMCs suggest he teach other ponies to lift things). We do also learn in that episode that most ponies have a happy relationship with their mark.

So it seems fully understanding one's mark right away is not required to get one, and examples of such ponies are known. The second part of the equation is, what does championing mean?

[] (Lore-Champion) Ask for this evidence to be brought to your desk. Pretend to read it, and that you are interested in it. Make a point of telling everypony that "it works".
(Attempt to promote the Lore primer you planted to the Bureau at large. Suspicious, perhaps even risky, but the most aggressive way to spread the Lores into the Bureau)

Click to shrink...

So it seems it's pretend to read it -> tell everypony we read it and it works. So it depends how the QM plays it, but "I thought my special talent was studying or administration, but now I realize it's actually the lores" could fit in the later stages of the execution. We even have our actual cutie mark story to corroborate.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

You do realize that everypony knows that for a cutie mark to appear, you must have done the action it represents, right? Telling ponies that our special talent is learning the lores means that we already knew about the lores. Even if we tell them that we just didn't know that what we did was lore related until we got these books, that just sounds a bit too convenient.

Click to shrink...

Wrong Troubleshoes lived decades with the completely wrong idea about what his cutie mark means. It fully possible for a pony to misunderstand what their mark means or even forget it. As far Velvet knew even, she got her mark after miscasting a spell from a random book, that could have meant any number of things, that one specific spell, the lores at large, or even just being bad at magic.

The show makes it clear that while on the rarer side it fully possible for a pony, not know what their cutie mark actually means. They can forget it, misremember, or misinterpret, it especially if they got it under high stress moments.

Hell the CMC get as their harmony appointed job as being helping people with problems understanding their marks.

 

[Alan975]

[X] Plan Feels Good To Be A Lore Master

 

[Chopak]

[X] Plan Feels Good To Be Back

 

[Sveta08]

Oh! Right. I need to vote.

[X] Plan Feels Good To Be Back

 

[Demilich]

[X] Plan Feels Good To Be Back

 

[Spacemurica]

[X] Plan Feels Good To Be Back

I don't feel comfortable championing right now

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

Now, let me qualify this by saying this is all up to how the QM interprets both of these things, but…

• Ostensibly, a cutie mark appears when a pony realizes what their purpose in life or what they're good at is.
• And yet, we have two examples of ponies in the show who deeply misunderstood what their cutie mark means: Troubleshoes in Appleloosa's Most Wanted (being a failure -> being a clown), and Diamond Tiara in Crusaders of the Lost Mark (bossing people around and blackmailing them -> being a good leader and using people's talents).
• We also have a brief example of Bulk Biceps in On Your Marks who was not aware of one of the nuances of his mark, although it's kind of played for laughs (he says he ran out of things to lift around Ponyville, and the CMCs suggest he teach other ponies to lift things). We do also learn in that episode that most ponies have a happy relationship with their mark.

So it seems fully understanding one's mark right away is not required to get one, and examples of such ponies are known. The second part of the equation is, what does championing mean?

So it seems it's pretend to read it -> tell everypony we read it and it works. So it depends how the QM plays it, but "I thought my special talent was studying or administration, but now I realize it's actually the lores" could fit in the later stages of the execution. We even have our actual cutie mark story to corroborate.

Click to shrink...

The issue is that professing this is our special talent means we 100% must have used the Lores in the past, and Celestia right now is not in the mood for claims of, "but I didn't know that until now." Like, that might earn us a hot seat in front of a very menacing mirror whose Lantern exceeds our Moth, and then shit gets really bad.

 

[OurLadyOfWires]

Vote closed

Spoiler: Tally

Vote Tally : Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience | Page 301 | Questionable Questing [Posts: 9060-9170]
##### NetTally 4.0.2

[X] Plan Feels Good To Be Back
-[X] (Lore-Promote)
-[X] (Windigos-Alert)
-[X] (Evidence-Burn)
No. of Votes: 23

Spoiler: Voters

[◈] Plan: Feels Good To Be Back
[X] Bakkasama
[X] Chopak
[X] Cochimetl
[X] dcoconeo
[X] DelightedOne
[X] Demilich
[X] des-pair-2
[X] Flaregamer82253
[X] Greymere
[X] jason1stlegion
[X] LieutenantSpirit
[X] Limabot
[X] Maer
[X] moonlock
[X] Nevermort
[X] Quaxotia
[X] Rafuki22
[X] Random Anon
[X] Solace2117
[X] Spacemurica
[X] spiderhellian
[X] Sveta08
[X] Talon Tiger Dino

[X] Plan Feels Good To Be A Lore Master
-[X] (Lore-Champion)
-[X] (Windigos-Alert)
-[X] (Evidence-Burn)
No. of Votes: 13

Spoiler: Voters

[◈] Plan: Feels Good To Be A Lore Master
[X] Alan975
[X] Anjaxis
[X] Arrkhon
[X] DelightedOne
[X] Earth-Destroyer
[X] HellFire666
[X] Kai Merah
[X] Maer
[X] MisRAR1
[X] Pittauro
[X] Potdl
[X] Steady Gaze
[X] Venerable Ro

[X] Plan: A Calmer Approach
-[X] (Lore-Promote)
-[X] (Windigos-Cautious)
-[X] (Evidence-Burn)
No. of Votes: 6

Spoiler: Voters

[◈] Plan: A Calmer Approach
[X] Flaregamer82253
[X] Greymere
[X] LieutenantSpirit
[X] Maer
[X] Rafuki22
[X] Solace2117

[X] Plan There is a Detective on Our Case Already
-[X] (Lore-Promote)
-[X] (Windigos-Alert)
-[X] (Evidence-Downplay)
No. of Votes: 3

Spoiler: Voters

[◈] Plan: There is a Detective on Our Case Already
[X] AuthorTransient
[X] Limabot
[X] Nevermort

[X] (Evidence-Burn)
No. of Votes: 1

Spoiler: Voters

[X] Shaper47

[X] (Lore-Promote)
No. of Votes: 1

Spoiler: Voters

[X] Shaper47

[X] (Windigos-Cautious)
No. of Votes: 1

Spoiler: Voters

[X] Shaper47

Total No. of Voters: 36

Edit: No updates right now I'm afraid, but I'm sure I'll be able to squeeze some time for it soon.

Have a wonderful week everyone! By my current plans, next update is rounding up your friends and your Knock lesson, and then the snake.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

You have a wonderful week too!

 

[Witherbrine2671]

I cannot wait for the snake. I will admit Axe is one of the best characters in the quest, there is just something about the written accent that is wonderful.

 

[Greymere]

Have a wonderful week everyone! By my current plans, next update is rounding up your friends and your Knock lesson, and then the snake.

Click to shrink...

Snekrament!

Though as much as I'm looking forward to the Knock Sacrament, I am admittedly worried about what kind of headspace Jade's going to be in when we check in on her.

 

[Pittauro]

the results of this sacrament matter a lot too!

We budgeted 4 actions for this. If we take 3, or even better just 2, we MIGHT just be able to fit more fleeting opportunities... or, you know, more Sacraments. Or the study of Artifacts and/or books.

 

[Witherbrine2671]

More Sacraments! I want to see what is behind Sacraments locked Mansus stuff. I have no doubt they would be very cool.

 

[Limabot]

Same. I know we won't have much time to make use of it, but I really want to know what's in the Tower locked behind the SH Sacrament.

 

[Solace2117]

Obviously the most important thing is completing Axe's Sacrament, which is why we put 4 actions to it. Barring bad luck we should have 1 maybe 2 actions to choose. While I'm intrigued by the fleeting action and doing one action of her personal SH sacrament could be useful, it may be worth having Velvet scry for the level 7 book.
While we can steal a follower actions from next turn, having Baldomare's available lets us take her Sacrament which will help with Velvet's personal. We could have Jade do it cause she has the same lantern level as Velvet, I worry about the SH requirement which Velvet won't have any issue with barring her rolling like a six or below. Almost impossible if she still has her reroll by then. Potentially a little premature, cause other things could change our priorities, but just a thought.

 

[Pittauro]

More Sacraments! I want to see what is behind Sacraments locked Mansus stuff. I have no doubt they would be very cool.

Click to shrink...

eh, we're not ready for Baldomare SH Sacrament (she's busy and I'm not sure we have the bits for it either), and as for our personal... without the SH influence it's kinda risky.

We COULD risk it if we still have the SH reroll, but even assuming the same DC as last time...

[SH Sacrament – First Step, cd 110]

[Roll: 61 + 14 (Learning) + 40 (Secret Histories Level 4) = 115]

[Success]



[But did you learn anything from it?, cd 100]

[Roll: 25 72 + 14 (Learning) + 40 (Knock Level 4) = 116]

[Knock re-roll used]

[Success]

Click to shrink...

DC 110. we roll +14 from Learning, and +40 from SH.

Assuming the DC goes up to 120 (believable), that's a... 34% chance on a single roll, and I think 56.4% with the reroll.

Kinda low on such a risky action. So we probably want to do SH Sacrament (either of them, maybe even BOTH of them) next turn.

As for the OTHER Sacrament that could unlock new areas in the Mansus... that's Winter, and besides the moral implications (and at this point 3 random lives are not really THAT bad compared to everything else we're involved in) We still need scraps for the lvl up (admittedly the attempt itself is likely to give us some), and bits to try. Oh, and of course there's STILL a DC for the action, so we'd likely want a Winter Influence too to help.

We're probably better off studying our artifacts or books, or maybe even just explore more of the mansus.