Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[spiderhellian]

I for one am committed, committed to doing it right instead of flailing around in a haze of blind reactivity because suddenly deadlines. Mirror Twilight is not going to implode if we tell her that this is a long-term project and we can't do everything this very second. A careful methodical approach will suit her scientific mien now that she's actually getting results. A blade handled recklessly cuts its owner and ruins the dish.

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We've been explicitly told not to count on getting back here. I think it's also silly to assume that we'll have the time to devote to Mirror Twilight and regular Twilight, and that any subsequent voyage would be as successful as this one.

If we want this to happen, we should do it now.

If we don't, we make that call too.

But dreaming of doing it in some kinder, better way… I think that's just a dream.

 

[Venerable Ro]

We've been explicitly told not to count on getting back here. I think it's also silly to assume that we'll have the time to devote to Mirror Twilight and regular Twilight, and that any subsequent voyage would be as successful as this one.

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The Daughter-of-Axes' invitation: "Ae sppose ae can wash yer hoof, s'long as ye wash mine as well. Ae need ye te run me an errant. Do tha' an' ae'll make et worth yer time. Bu' get sum'more Knock on ye farst, or else ye won' survive th' trip."
-Successfully complete her request on the "Through the foggy mirror" action. You do not know how many actions this will take.
-Your forays into the "Through the foggy mirror" action may be spaced through however many turns you wish, and you may invest however many actions per turn you wish into it. But the Daughter-of-Axes must be summoned every time you want to try it.

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Are you really telling me that the Name of Knock would just, forget how to do this the moment we complete the Sacrament? If we really genuinely want to make it happen and we ask, nicely, I think Axe would be amenable considering it's not just us wanting an exotic vacation. Axe has opinions regarding abandonment, no? Explaining what we want to do and why, I think, would garner some sympathy.

If we want this to happen, we should do it now.

If we don't, we make that call too.

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If it really comes down to it then I'm not going to support pulling the switch out of some misguided "but we have to do something!" fallacy. It's a bad idea, pure and simple. That said, refusing to look for alternatives out of pessimism is to my mind just as bad. We have resources, lots of them, we just need to at least attempt to put them to use.

 

[Sveta08]

Sunk-cost fallacy was picking anything to do with Twilight in the first place.

Refusing to get a free confident for white-knighting reasons again is just snaching defeat from the jaws of victory.

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Shaper, I am quite tired. I do apologize if I am a bit blunt and dull in this, but again, I am quite tired of this.
I'm... well, yes, I am talking directly to you, but not only you. You just tend to be the most vocal about this.

Yes people are arguing on a dozen different things, waste or not, worth or not and some arguing for and against and how it might or might not-
I don't care. Not right now. Not important. Not... Not important. I'm not talking about that. Or at least I'm not talking about that in the same way I'm not talking about anything, and I'm talking about everything.



This. This? This... this everything. I would wiggle my arms and gesture at the everything if I could, but that's what I'm referring to. Not you, not here, not this, but... this everything.
This is a difference of aims.



I, am going to guess here. And I am likely to be wrong. I'm likely to mischaracterize... again, the everything, but I don't know how to not.

From what you've said, where you've voted, how you've argued, what you've said you are aiming for, I am going to have to guess.... That you want to Win.
There were 3 Victory conditions that exist, stated from start of the quest, and you want to Win. You want to grab that, and it will be Won because the Quest was Won. Because that is true.
You want to Win. The Wolf, like, it's right there. It Literally gets us exactly what it says on the tin. It solves the problem, it is three actions away from Winning, and bam. Goal met. Aim done. We Win, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Definitionally, it is a success.

From that, it's... frustrating? I am guessing here, but you seem frustrated. And angry. Because... what the hell? We keep not doing that. We keep not aiming for Victory. Did we not read the same warning from Baldomare, where if we know a path to Victory, claim it? That we aren't some special wunderkind, but just lucky and managed to get this far? We keep taking actions that might be a mistake, and that don't directly carry us to victory, that don't help in anyway. And then we just waste actions? What the hell? It's infuriating.

And, And! Even when you do choose to go along with the "common voice" as it tends to be, we take stupid decisions like with Twilight here. As a Confidant, she is obviously more helpful than she would be otherwise. Right now she's nothing more than a lingering pit of gunk that's not helpful to anyone. So if we took the actions to get here, we should at least get the prize at the bottom. Turning it away is just... not only reckless and dangerous as it leaves loose threads, it's downright negative utility! It's less than pointless, it's actively wasting everyone's time and energy and the very precious action economy.

I see that, okay? I see that and it's mind mindbogglingly irritating.



Now. That, wrong as I may be, I see as your Aim. Not specifically yours, but this.... this aim. Secure the Win.

I'm going to liken it to... a Speedrun of this Quest. There is a goal, there are actions, and you can measure them against a fixed end position of success. Things either take you closer, or further from it.
To torture this metaphor, that's not the type of "Run" that most here seem to be aiming for.



Most here seem to be more interested in a... Completionist? 100%? True Ending? That kinda thing. None of those really fit because you can't do everything, you don't know the true path, and there isn't really a True Ending, as far as Our Lady has said. People are instead focused on... that idea of it. Not a Perfect Run, but on a "Good" Run. Doing the things that are "Right."

But, that's also not really possible. Or at least, not the "run" that is happening. Velvet has made... so many mistakes. Votes have gone haywire, and if there was a "Good" Ending, then with the Wolf Actions that have been taken, it would make sense that we are "Locked" out of it. But People are still trying to aim in that direction.

Less guided by sheer action economy, or comparable progress towards a fixed win, or speed of completion or anything like that. But more a... wobbly moral values, do what we can and try to not regret if things go wrong follow the heart, head, feet, kinda path. Which, inevitably, leads to worse decisions exploring extraneous paths. Wastes time, actions come to nothing, and unoptimal choices are made for a moral reason that may or may not even have a reward at the end. And a reward we might even just straight up ignore!



I get it. You are probably defining the "Right" action as the one that succeeds and gets towards Victory, and I/we/they/us are defining the "Right" action on vague, wobbly, moral sliding scale choices. One has a way, way, way harder, definitive edge to it. Provably useful too. The other.... fails. A lot.

I hope you can understand that. The... motive. The motivation. The reasoning behind this.
If you are aiming towards Victory, and others are aiming at a Type of Victory then things will constantly be at odds. Both sides demanding that they are right because of how they have defined it, and that definition, definitionally making the others wrong.

I get it. And I'm trying to reach over to understand where you are and where you're at. I, personally, value the "Trying to do what is Right as it is made increasingly more difficult to paint anything as Pure Right" aim of action. A fair few people do. Simply refusing that outright in discussion just... it just means people aren't going to listen.

 

[OurLadyOfWires]

First of all @OurLadyOfWires sorry but I really don't understand Velvet's logic here.

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Your biggest mistake is at the very premise. You are assuming Velvet is operating with rational logic here



Now, in other news.

Spoiler: Tally

Vote Tally : Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience | Page 319 | Questionable Questing [Posts: 9611-9700]
##### NetTally 4.0.2

[X] Now that you can reach the city center, it is time to explore even beyond that. Map the roads, learn the rules, and seek the very end of this dream.
No. of Votes: 33

Spoiler: Voters

[x] Earth-Destroyer
[X] Alan975
[X] Anjaxis
[X] Arrkhon
[X] AuthorTransient
[X] DelightedOne
[X] des-pair-2
[X] Enna's Fractal Wings
[X] Greymere
[X] IronHydra
[X] K4lepo
[x] Kai Merah
[X] keykigdom
[X] LieutenantSpirit
[X] Limabot
[x] MisRAR1
[X] moonlock
[X] Nevermort
[X] Pittauro
[X] Portec
[X] Potdl
[X] Qwoptermain
[X] Rafuki22
[X] Random Anon
[X] Shaper47
[x] Solace2117
[X] Spacemurica
[x] spiderhellian
[X] Steady Gaze
[X] steampvnc1880
[X] Talon Tiger Dino
[X] Venerable Ro
[X] Witherbrine2671

[X] Apparently, they are not alicorns here. But they are still the highest authority. (Approach the Principals)
No. of Votes: 22

Spoiler: Voters

[X] AuthorTransient
[X] Alan975
[X] Anjaxis
[X] Arrkhon
[X] Biowolf
[X] DelightedOne
[X] des-pair-2
[x] Kai Merah
[X] LieutenantSpirit
[X] Limabot
[X] moonlock
[X] Nevermort
[X] Pittauro
[X] Qwoptermain
[X] Random Anon
[x] Solace2117
[X] Spacemurica
[x] spiderhellian
[X] Steady Gaze
[x] steampvnc1880
[X] Talon Tiger Dino
[X] Venerable Ro

[X] Now that you can reach the city center, it is time to explore it properly. Check the stores, see the sights, and discover what wondrous things this world considers mundane.
No. of Votes: 21

Spoiler: Voters

[X] Talon Tiger Dino
[X] Alan975
[X] Anjaxis
[X] Arrkhon
[X] des-pair-2
[X] IronHydra
[X] K4lepo
[x] Kai Merah
[X] keykigdom
[X] LieutenantSpirit
[X] moonlock
[X] Pittauro
[X] Potdl
[X] Random Anon
[X] Shaper47
[x] Solace2117
[X] Spacemurica
[x] spiderhellian
[X] Steady Gaze
[X] Venerable Ro
[X] Witherbrine2671

[X] They are young and impressionable. Thankfully, you are a responsible adult. (Hang out with Rarity and Fluttershy, your real-life confidantes)
No. of Votes: 16

Spoiler: Voters

[x] Earth-Destroyer
[X] Alan975
[X] Anjaxis
[X] AuthorTransient
[X] Biowolf
[X] DelightedOne
[X] Enna's Fractal Wings
[x] HellFire666
[x] Jame
[X] Limabot
[x] MisRAR1
[x] Nate700
[X] Nevermort
[X] Pittauro
[X] Qwoptermain
[X] Steady Gaze

[X] This place has a library. Go take a look.
No. of Votes: 15

Spoiler: Voters

[X] DelightedOne
[X] Alan975
[X] Enna's Fractal Wings
[X] Greymere
[x] HellFire666
[X] IronHydra
[x] Jame
[X] Limabot
[X] moonlock
[x] Nate700
[X] Potdl
[X] Rafuki22
[X] Shaper47
[x] Solace2117
[X] Witherbrine2671

[X] What is this "cellphone" all the kids are talking about? Why do you have one? And what is this "Internet" thing?
No. of Votes: 10

Spoiler: Voters

[x] Earth-Destroyer
[X] AuthorTransient
[X] Greymere
[x] HellFire666
[x] Jame
[x] MisRAR1
[X] moonlock
[x] Nate700
[X] Portec
[X] Rafuki22

[X] Alright, WHERE is Stormchaser? (Look for your dear beloved)
No. of Votes: 9

Spoiler: Voters

[X] AuthorTransient
[X] Biowolf
[X] des-pair-2
[X] keykigdom
[X] Limabot
[X] Portec
[X] Qwoptermain
[X] Random Anon
[X] Spacemurica

[X] Return home, with Diary and Frangiclave, and fulfill your bargain with the Daughter-of-Axes. (End the dream, and redistribute your remaining action points.)
No. of Votes: 5

Spoiler: Voters

[X] Greymere
[X] Arrkhon
[X] Limabot
[X] Qwoptermain
[X] steampvnc1880

[X] Return home, with Diary, Frangiclave, and something else besides. Or rather, someone. (End the dream, bringing Twilight Sparkle with you, and redistribute your remaining action points.)
No. of Votes: 4

Spoiler: Voters

[X] retrueno
[X] Alan975
[X] Flaregamer82253
[X] spiderhellian

[X] "Is there anything on your mind, Miss Jack?" (Approach Applejack)
No. of Votes: 2

Spoiler: Voters

[X] AuthorTransient
[X] Limabot

Total No. of Voters: 39

Now, we are all reasonable people here, and we can all tell what is happening. The current consensus seems to be that we want to spend at least one more action point here, and then see what happens.

I imagined this would happen. Both because, well, we are already here and set aside four actions for this Sacrament, and also because this allows us to kick the metaphorical can down the road.

Don't worry, we will get to the exit vote eventually. It is inevitable.

Still, just so you all know. I said I would probably close the vote at Wednesday/Thursday. However, there is a very slim chance I will be able to sneak in an update tomorrow night, depending on certain factors.

So be advised. If the stars align, I might close the vote tomorrow night to get some writing done. Make sure you have your votes cast for your preferences accordingly.

We can spend a little more time in this pleasant dream, before we wake up.



I hope you are all doing well!

 

[Limabot]

SNIP

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I found this quite interesting, but here's how I would personally phrase it; the main conflict between factions in the Quest is people treating it as a Game first, or as a Story first. I agree that a player who's trying to win as quickly and efficiently as possible would be frustrated by having to co-op with another player who is willing to make sub-optimal moves for the sake of creating what they see as a better story.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

We are never coming back do you really think the DoA will want to have anything to do with the place that killed her sister.

 

[spiderhellian]

Are you really telling me that the Name of Knock would just, forget how to do this the moment we complete the Sacrament? If we really genuinely want to make it happen and we ask, nicely, I think Axe would be amenable considering it's not just us wanting an exotic vacation. Axe has opinions regarding abandonment, no? Explaining what we want to do and why, I think, would garner some sympathy.

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I think you are assuming something we have been explicitly told not to assume.

Sure, maybe Axe will help us come back. I'll remind you that Axe has not been a very helpful snake pony, not someone inclined to doing favors.

Maybe that will change now that we've done her this favour. But certainly she's not in our debt, given this was repaying the favour of the sacrament. Just as easy to see her not wanting to go through this again, not touch the realm she lost Pasharka to, just not want to bother.

You can hope otherwise. But I think it's definitely hoping against what we've seen of Axe, and hoping for something we've been explicitly told not to count on.

 

[Spacemurica]

I am starting to regret tilting that first vote in favor of Twilight now. I have no idea what I'm going to vote for the exit vote.

 

[Shaper47]

I get it. And I'm trying to reach over to understand where you are and where you're at. I, personally, value the "Trying to do what is Right as it is made increasingly more difficult to paint anything as Pure Right" aim of action. A fair few people do. Simply refusing that outright in discussion just... it just means people aren't going to listen.

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I agree that a player who's trying to win as quickly and efficiently as possible would be frustrated by having to co-op with another player who is willing to make sub-optimal moves for the sake of creating what they see as a better story.

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Look, I care about two things in this quest.

Aiming to win as you have noticed.

But also Love.

Because in my eyes love isn't a wasted effort.

Spending time with Cadence, spoiling Selene, taking Rarity out to a party, showing Jade the wonders to be found in the world, cuddling our sons. These are things I want to do.

That's the story I want to create, a story of victory and love.

Love Is a two way bond and we choose to not reach out to Twilight and Twilight decided to not reach out to us. There is no love in actions that pick Twilight. No support for our victory. And every wasted effort only creates a less loving Velvet as it disregards the bonds she already has.

Winning, victory, is a question. And the answer I would give it is love.

 

[dcoconeo]

[X] Return home, with Diary and Frangiclave, and fulfill your bargain with the Daughter-of-Axes. (End the dream, and redistribute your remaining action points.)

[X] Now that you can reach the city center, it is time to explore it properly. Check the stores, see the sights, and discover what wondrous things this world considers mundane.
[X] Apparently, they are not alicorns here. But they are still the highest authority. (Approach the Principals)
[X] Now that you can reach the city center, it is time to explore even beyond that. Map the roads, learn the rules, and seek the very end of this dream.

There is no love in actions that pick Twilight

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Isn't love supposed to be unconditional though?
Anyway, now that we know there is nothing we can and should do even in an impossible land, we can well and truly say that we have discharged our duty and debt to Twilight to the best of our ability, which finishing the transfer does not do but adds more stuff on our plate to deal with someone we don't care about all the much (for now)?

 

[Shaper47]

which finishing the transfer does not do but adds more stuff on our plate to deal with someone we don't care about all the much (for now)?

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Free confident.

Isn't love supposed to be unconditional though?
Anyway, now that we know there is nothing we can and should do even in an impossible land,

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The issue is that the issue with Twilight is not in a vacuum.

Velvet has beings she loves and ignoring them and victory for Twilight diminishes the idea that Velvet loves them.

Like, when you have a group of Cenobites knocking on the door maybe it's time to actually take thing seriously.

 

[dcoconeo]

Free confident.

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...what are we going to do with her though?
Because I am 100% sure there will be at least 1 AP spent on ensuring the switch does not cause problems in the medium term, to unknown degree of success.

 

[Shaper47]

...what are we going to do with her though?
Because I am 100% sure there will be at least 1 AP spent on ensuring the switch does not cause problems in the medium term, to unknown degree of success.

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Covering bases and looking for books probably.

We can probably stick Rarity on ensuring the switch doesn't cause any problems so it's not personal AP that has to be spent.

 

[dcoconeo]

Covering bases and looking for books probably.

We can probably stick Rarity on ensuring the switch doesn't cause any problems so it's not personal AP that has to be spent.

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Covering bases might work, but we are probably at the point of diminishing returns given extra Velvet AP keeps getting more expensive as the stacks increase?
For books, there is only one book we actually care about now, and she isn't gonna be better than Jade at finding that. We are NOT sending her on the expedition to get the book once we have them, it would be a waste of Bits at best.

For Rarity on problem-squashing duty, I don't think she has the personal connection and skill necessary to talk to Cadance and Shining appropriately, and/or deal with Celestia staring at the Twilight that now has Lore skills if she ever gets suspicious?
(She has Grail, yes, but her narrative focus of it is entirely unusable for interpersonal problems)

 

[Kaelor]

I think that, in character, Velvet would have made that promise. Even if it was a on-the-moment thing she just blurted out. She is too caring, too mothering and too nurturing, so it's just the kind of language she uses.

But if this really is impacting how you want to consider this vote (and I think that is more important right now), then aye. Canonically, Velvet did not promise anything, and I'll also change the option to reflect that.

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I appreciate that.

Thematically I think this is great, and anyone who didn't see a morally quandary at the end of the Twilight vote clearly hasn't been paying attention. Velvet's relationship with Twilight is basically the entire plot in miniature.

Having Velvet make a promise and only giving the players agency and information after the damage had been done kinda poisoned that, because it seemed disingenuous. The players weren't given agency to make the promise, only to break it, which felt like railroading for the sake of drama. Velvet was only an endless curse on Twilight's life because The Author decreed it: if she hadn't been locked into cutscene mode the decision could have been made in a way that wouldn't have been a total betrayal.

This change helps. Velvet is enough of a mom to know better than to promise what you won't deliver, especially knowing the price, but I will totally buy that she's irrational enough about Twilight to tell her it's possible.

It's still a betrayal, she's still probably ruining this Twilight's life, but it doesn't totally rob the players of agency. The decision wasn't made without them, even if it won't change anything from Twilight's perspective.

And this current situation, being an exception among exceptions, is an opportunity to do something. And whatever you decide here will educate me on what Velvet Covers truly cares about.

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I am only offering the choices, and describing the actions that will be taken depending on which is picked. You guys are the ones who need to ascribe morals to them.

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I'm not sure I follow, because it feels like the morals dictate what Velvet really cares about?

A vote for doing the switch because it's hypothetically the best for both of them is very different from doing the switch because another Confidant gives us a great mechanical advantage, despite being the same vote.

A vote for not doing the switch because you want Velvet to own her mess and not hide behind a magical undo button is different from not doing the switch because you're worried what losing the Element of Magic will do to Harmony, despite being the same vote.

Does motive matter and you're going to be reading along for vibes on the winning vote? Or does each option have a specific meaning and that meaning will be what Velvet cares about, regardless of what motives the players had for picking that option?

Just need to know if we should be showing our reasoning or puzzling out the themes behind each option.

 

[Shaper47]

For books, there is only one book we actually care about now, and she isn't gonna be better than Jade at finding that.

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Heart Books at Ponyville.

and/or deal with Celestia staring at the Twilight that now has Lore skills if she ever gets suspicious?

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???

That's not an issue.

Not like their going to ever talk to eachother.

I don't think she has the personal connection and skill necessary to talk to Cadance and Shining appropriately,

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It's a free work social action for Velvet if it even comes up.

 

[dcoconeo]

Heart Books at Ponyville.

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Yeah, but we don't actually need those to Win? Spending AP on teaching our Family further seems currently ill-advised to due to our doom clocks in the background, and reading those books still need Velvet AP.

 

[Shaper47]

Yeah, but we don't actually need those to Win? Spending AP on teaching our Family further seems currently ill-advised to due to our doom clocks in the background, and reading those books still need Velvet AP.

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Heart 4 only requires reading one level 4 book with an Influence.

And heart 4 gives a reroll and is pretty much need for the depths of the church expedition.

 

[dcoconeo]

And heart 4 gives a reroll and is pretty much need for the depths of the church expedition.

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Sure, but what do we expect out of that expedition that is worth the risk of losing Lore scraps or other worse things (we already lost Velvet AP(s) to reassuring our family and friends as an indirect cost of this expedition)?

 

[Solace2117]

I'm already tired of the Velvet vote and we haven't even really got into it. This is what I was worried about and why I didn't really want to pick Twilight. Velvet's too emotionally invested to always make rational decisions. I'm open to trying things to help Twilight, that desire to try and help is one of Velvet's most compelling characteristics. Unfortunately it also means sometimes she thinks she's doing well, when she's only making it worse. Now we stand to hurt two Twilights. Maybe if we could show the girls, that in other histories would have been her friends, that magic exists and she was right it could soften the blow and help her make friends, but it doesn't sound like that's an option.

Others have mentioned something along this line, but I would also like to push back against the notion we have to bring back Twilight or it's a wasted action. We've used the actions to complete DOA's quest and get a Sacrament. As Ourlaadyofwires commented we accomplished it in the standard amount of time expected. Choosing not to bring back Twilight is inefficient cause we don't get any bonuses if we left this turn. It's not a blatant time sink. Arguably choosing phone and Rarity the first vote option would have been just as much of a waste depending on if it actually opened up potential bonuses or notIt may have just made the search easier and well we accomplished it in two AP anyways.

 

[Shaper47]

Sure, but what do we expect out of that expedition that is worth the risk of losing Lore scraps or other worse things (we already lost Velvet AP(s) to reassuring our family and friends as an indirect cost of this expedition)?

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I take the lost Velvet AP(s) as a result of not getting the Wolf Sacrament not the expedition.

A roll with a bonus of 89 and a reroll for a cd of 100 isn't that much of a risk.

Though heart 5 is only two Velvet APs and influence with the right books if we want a roll bonus of 99.

Still mostly unknown dangers but we can expect scraps (probably grail) and maybe a relic artifact or level 7 book.

And, well Velvet is pretty good with her levels of lore.