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Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

Also to have Velvet and Selene talk about the Wolf Sacrament and leave the choice in Selene's hooves.
Absolutely not!
We should not do that, Velvet should not do that.

Especially because there's far too high of a chance that Selene would do it, perhaps not this second but if something unexpected popped up at the wrong time...

That is not the kind of choice that a good mother lets their charge make, for their own good.

Let us bear those regrets so that no one else has to.
 
And ultimately… trying to help purple pony (with no guarantee it would) is not our chief objective right now. Not even close. We have a handful of turns remaining, it is not something we should be committing to effort for, let alone mildly unreasonable effort. But okay, I can buy that you disagree.

Funnily enough, I suspect we're ultimately in agreement and accidentally talking past each other. Goodness knows I'm prone to that...

To clarify, where are you trying to go at this particular moment, narratively speaking?
 
That's the story I want to create, a story of victory and love.
Mate, if I'm gonna be real? The way you've portrayed yourself is as someone trying to get other questers to willingly destroy any chance of an even slightly happy ending, and not even being coy about it. So this statement is kinda unbelievable. It could be completely true, but I just don't see it.
 
Mate, if I'm gonna be real? The way you've portrayed yourself is as someone trying to get other questers to willingly destroy any chance of an even slightly happy ending, and not even being coy about it. So this statement is kinda unbelievable. It could be completely true, but I just don't see it.

Er it's more like a nice sounding, but also vague attitude / mindset which allows other questers to destroy it even though we all have more or less good intentions, and want to do what is "right". Rather than intentionally goading questers to destroy this story. There does need to be firm consensus on how to approach some things. On some quests I have seen that.
 
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I hope we can just tell mirror!Twilight that it is possible to bring her with us, but preparations would have to be made on the other side first.

That's the story I want to create, a story of victory and love.

I don't know what is worse: that you are lying, or that you are telling the truth.

Either way, it would be a victory only in its technicality, and the love would be rotten to its very core. That is not the story I wish to read.
 
Um, considering that we didn't talk about the Regrettable Actions at a time where it would've been narratively best to do so, I don't think we have any reasonable segue into this option? (And I don't think she will be a meaningful sounding board for such matters since she trusts that our actions will be helpful/necessary anyway)

Offering her a Wolf Sacrament is a reasonable segue.

We can be vague about what an RA means but putting the choice in Selene's hooves is a matter of trust.

Either way, it would be a victory only in its technicality, and the love would be rotten to its very core. That is not the story I wish to read.
Mate, if I'm gonna be real? The way you've portrayed yourself is as someone trying to get other questers to willingly destroy any chance of an even slightly happy ending, and not even being coy about it. So this statement is kinda unbelievable. It could be completely true, but I just don't see it.

Hey, I'm not the bunch that wants to hand everything in the world over to the equivalent of Cenobites for endless torture.

That's you guys.
 
Hey, I'm not the bunch that wants to hand everything in the world over to the equivalent of Cenobites for endless torture.
I think that we still have leeway, but it is rapidly shrinking and will be easier if we do not actively risk shrinking it now.
Part of the thread probably thinks we have more than enough leeway, but I assume you think we have a negative amount of it left?
 
Heart 4 only requires reading one level 4 book with an Influence.

And heart 4 gives a reroll and is pretty much need for the depths of the church expedition.

Sadly normal book searches top out at Level 3, so Twilight can't even get the book you want. If you want cheap cover your bases AP, just embrace glorious Necromancy. Or Summon things! The MitLs have been waiting for aaaaaages, and come out superior to ponies from the get-go, let alone a human-turned-pony who still needs to figure out how being quadrupedal works. They need no training in Lores or living, and so are vastly more efficient.

Offering her a Wolf Sacrament is a reasonable segue.

We can be vague about what an RA means but putting the choice in Selene's hooves is a matter of trust.




Hey, I'm not the bunch that wants to hand everything in the world over to the equivalent of Cenobites for endless torture.

That's you guys.

The Wolf is not the only way to deal with the Worms, and never has been. That you keep portraying it that way is disingenuous.
 
I think that we still have leeway, but it is rapidly shrinking and will be easier if we do not actively risk shrinking it now.
Part of the thread probably thinks we have more than enough leeway, but I assume you think we have a negative amount of it left?
He's, for some reason, entirely convinced himself that Harmony is actually totally the Super Evil Big Bad who deliberately wants to lure the Worms in and have them destroy the world. Despite it making no sense.
 
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I think that we still have leeway, but it is rapidly shrinking and will be easier if we do not actively risk shrinking it now.
Part of the thread probably thinks we have more than enough leeway, but I assume you think we have a negative amount of it left?

I think we have an unknown amount of leeway both IC and OOC.

Which means actions taken with this knowledge have character defining meaning. Risking her loved ones to endless torture porn for self moral reasons are not actions that endorse Velvet as a pony? that cares about her loved ones.

Personally OOC I think we've done some stuff that grants us additional leeway and some stuff that grants us negative leeway. If we pick the right choices we have enough time, pick the wrong choices and things can get really really bad.
 
He's, for some reason, entirely convinced himself that Harmony is actually totally the Super Evil Big Bad who deliberately wants to lure the Worms in and have them destroy the world. Despite it making no sense.

The Master claims to thinks that, afaik. But... Let's say a good, peaceful world with Harmony attracts the worms. Fine. But a devastated world with traumatized and divided people would fall just as easily in its own ways to the worms. If worms are gonna come anyway you might as well make the world an enjoyable place to live. With actual dream protections -- not just by Luna but perhaps reformed cultists. This is just my wild thoughts.

Do we have evidence or other reasoning that shows the worms are coming in faster because of harmony? Or that they're always gonna try to crawl in. @Shaper47
 
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I think Mirror Twilight would slightly understand if we explained that it isn't actually possible to bring her back because we think it would destroy somepony else. That would be a good way to attempt to slightly diffuse her consequent unhealthy fascination at not being able to experience the world of magic that we've helped stir up. @OurLadyOfWires do you think Velvet would have the presence of mind to do that? Or would she just leave without a trace, shattering Mirror Twilight's hopes?

The one thing that gives me pause is:
Third, Velvet Covers is an unreliable narrator, and this world is already strange to begin with. I invite you all to consider if this update is brushing over certain topics or implications, or not.
So do most people think it's that Velvet is too optimistic about the outcomes if we bring Twilight back?

Personally I feel that we overcome Velvet self imposed Twilight ban after that narrow vote were we decided to talk with human Twilight.
…that would be nice. But the QM has given no indication that will happen. The QM is (usually) very "the option does what it says", so I feel like there would've been a note at the end of the last update noting the change in status after we talked to human Twilight twice.

there ARE plenty chances for her to recover
They seemed rather marginal (probability-wise) to me, but what do I know? If we cared enough to have spared a follower action, we could have had Rarity or Fluttershy actually check on Twilight so we can confirm any assumptions we are making that she is improving (we still can, actually) and that she isn't still a shut-in. (Remember how she "received" the wedding invitation.) Sidenote @OurLadyOfWires it might be nice to explicitly ask Cadance about how Twilight is doing when we have the opportunity, given the players' and Velvet's interest in her. I know we got a brief note in Cadance's dream that she failed to "save Twilight", but Velvet doesn't know that.
The same way it wasn't your fault that the pony you claim to love the most lost his horn? The same way it wasn't your fault when you failed to save Twilight?!
I kind of assume this means her therapy/love magic failed, but I guess you could take it to mean her cult kidnapping—not sure if you intended that ambiguity or want to clarify that as well?

I mean, I don't disagree that the chance of her getting better is greater than zero; people's arguments can be summed up as "never kill yourself". And obviously, I think that's valid. This switcheroo isn't killing her, or automatically causing her to go insane (as long as one vaguely knows what even happened, like we or Twilight in first the EqG movie did, or if this happened to you or me), though I do acknowledge she may end up feeling screwed, assuming she isn't still too clinically depressed to care and she makes the connection to blame us.

Detractors don't seem to be giving much weight to how positive it might be for mirror Twilight, who actually has ambitions for her life now, but I guess people are not weighing it more than the negative utility of screwing our Twilight, so fine. I just hope people aren't discounting it in their considerations.

It's probably too late to do such coordination, but I would actually potentially consider leaving, with or without Twilight, rather than staying. For sure I think we should leave after the next update, since we don't have time to do any proper paths that may present themselves.
 
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[X] Apparently, they are not alicorns here. But they are still the highest authority. (Approach the Principals)
[X] Now that you can reach the city center, it is time to explore even beyond that. Map the roads, learn the rules, and seek the very end of this dream.
[X] This place has a library. Go take a look.
 
Sadly normal book searches top out at Level 3, so Twilight can't even get the book you want. If you want cheap cover your bases AP, just embrace glorious Necromancy. Or Summon things!

With Selene around it's easy to get the materials so more Necromancy would be great.

I was kinda hoping Mirror Twilight would be SH focused but even level 3 heart books are good. Only requires 2 Velvet AP and an Influence for heart 5 scrapwise if we have the books.

The Wolf is not the only way to deal with the Worms, and never has been. That you keep portraying it that way is disingenuous.

Not the only way but whenever I've suggested checking out the Wards nobody here has been interested.

It's disingenuous to forget that.

The MitLs have been waiting for aaaaaages, and come out superior to ponies from the get-go, let alone a human-turned-pony who still needs to figure out how being quadrupedal works. They need no training in Lores or living, and so are vastly more efficient.

I actually pretty annoyed at this because we kinda need bits to do a bunch of summoning.

So maybe people here should stop with the insistance of making us poor. So many bits lost.

Like, maybe if we took the thousand bits like I suggested things would be different.

He's, for some reason, entirely convinced himself that Harmony is actually totally the Super Evil Big Bad who deliberately wants to lure the Worms in and have them destroy the world. Despite it making no sense.

Unknown intentions are irrelevant compared to the results of actions.

Do we have evidence or other reasoning that shows the worms are coming in faster because of harmony? Or that they're always gonna try to crawl in. @Shaper47

That mess with Luna, the Master's knowledge, the fact we have Baldomare enlightment.
 
The Master claims to thinks that, afaik. But... Let's say a good, peaceful world with Harmony attracts the worms. Fine. But a devastated world with traumatized and divided people would fall just as easily in its own ways to the worms. If worms are gonna come anyway you might as well make the world an enjoyable place to live. With actual dream protections -- not just by Luna but perhaps reformed cultists. This is just my wild thoughts.

Do we have evidence or other reasoning that shows the worms are coming in faster because of harmony? Or that they're always gonna try to crawl in. @Shaper47
You misunderstand, a bit. The thing in contention is not that Harmony's light attracts Worms. We know it does, because it's the brightest thing in Nowhere, and finding out how to get around that seems to be the premise of the Harmony victory path. The thing that Shaper believes is that it is doing it on purpose with the express intent of destroying the world, and therefore anything Harmonious = Evil and Bad.

Despite, y'know, it's light literally being so anathema to the Worms that the alicorns just straight up vaporize lesser Worms and the Elements of Harmony being able to contain and purify a Worm-infested Luna.
 
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I know we got a brief note in Cadance's dream that she failed to "save Twilight", but Velvet doesn't know that.

I kind of assume this means her therapy/love magic failed, but I guess you could take it to mean her cult kidnapping—not sure if you intended that ambiguity or want to clarify that as well?

I kind of assumed that Cadance's dream of self-hatred is an unreliable narrator on a lot of stuff.

I was kinda hoping Mirror Twilight would be SH focused but even level 3 heart books are good. Only requires 2 Velvet AP and an Influence for heart 5 scrapwise if we have the books.

Even if she is SH focused she needs to be trained in it first. Also, how do Level 3 books lead to Heart 5? I thought they stop doing anything for us once we pass their level.
 
The thing that Shaper believes is that it is doing it on purpose with the express intent of destroying the world, and therefore anything Harmonious = Evil and Bad.

That's my old opinion.

After receiving more information I believe it's more if a gamble type deal.

Sure the world might be destroyed but for Harmony to get their overwhelming victory their willing to risk it.

Even if she is SH focused she needs to be trained in it first. Also, how do Level 3 books lead to Heart 5? I thought they stop doing anything for us once we pass their level.

Get 4 level 3 books from confident book searching. Get 2 level 4 books from book searching.

Spend one action reading 3 level 3 books. (Heart 3 3/4)

Spend one action reading 1 level 3 book and 2 level 4 books. (Heart 4 2/4)

Get a level 4 heart influence. (Heart 4 4/4)

Get Sacrament. (Heart 5)

So basically the level 3 heart books get us to heart 4.
 
I am somewhat sad those actions were spent on Twilight, as this was never going to end well. Still, what's done is done. Perhaps needless to say, but I am very much against the swap.


[X] Apparently, they are not alicorns here. But they are still the highest authority. (Approach the Principals)
[X] Now that you can reach the city center, it is time to explore it properly. Check the stores, see the sights, and discover what wondrous things this world considers mundane.
[X] Now that you can reach the city center, it is time to explore even beyond that. Map the roads, learn the rules, and seek the very end of this dream

[X] Alright, WHERE is Stormchaser? (Look for your dear beloved)

I would like to find Stormchaser before we go, but I am aware this is a pipe dream.
 
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For our personal action, I think it should depend on what we learn about getting to level 6 in a lore.

Because getting enough level 5 Moth scraps to reach 6/6 is surprisingly viable.
 
[x] Now that you can reach the city center, it is time to explore even beyond that. Map the roads, learn the rules, and seek the very end of this dream.
[x] Apparently, they are not alicorns here. But they are still the highest authority. (Approach the Principals
 
The way you've portrayed yourself
That's disingenuous, Shaper is one of the extremely few here that does not charge our Sons with the sins of the father, so it is not a surprising motivation.

That's also a parallel that could be fun, if people are so keen on ignoring the "Velvet does not want to talk to Pony-Twilight" then I'd like to restart the push to talk to our Sons.
 
That's disingenuous, Shaper is one of the extremely few here that does not charge our Sons with the sins of the father, so it is not a surprising motivation.

That's also a parallel that could be fun, if people are so keen on ignoring the "Velvet does not want to talk to Pony-Twilight" then I'd like to restart the push to talk to our Sons.
Is it? Is it really? Because unless Shaper's stopped since I put him on Ignore, he consistently advocates for taking Regrettable Actions all the way up to the 6/7 mark, which objectively would make the world a worse place several times over. I don't know about you, but "we saved the world but it's only one step away from being a post-apocalyptic nightmare, and it's directly our fault that it's that way" is not a good or happy ending imo.
 
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We've been explicitly told not to count on getting back here. I think it's also silly to assume that we'll have the time to devote to Mirror Twilight and regular Twilight, and that any subsequent voyage would be as successful as this one.

If we want this to happen, we should do it now.

If we don't, we make that call too.

But dreaming of doing it in some kinder, better way… I think that's just a dream.
that's fair.

Generally speaking I THINK we'll likely be able to come back, but I agree we should plan as if we won't be able to.

Just like I don't really think Celestia will get a Lantern level per turn up to lvl 5, BUT we should plan as if that's what's going to happen, because the cost of being wrong is simply too great to dismiss the possibility.

Hope for the best and plan for the worst, as they say.

Morally speaking, I believe that putting Twilight into this world is a monstruosity. It's a betrayal of Twilight, of Cadance AND of Shining beyond anything we've ever done, and it can't be justified as doing it for their sake (which was at least possible with the Leash, another arguably evil decision which we can at least agree didn't generate more suffering though).

If you're voting to bring this Twilight, that's obviously fine, everyone has different things they want to see from this quest. Just... PLEASE don't argue that it would be good for Twilight, that this is Velvet being merciful to PONY Twilight, that Twilight will get the help she needs and so on.

We'd be helping MIRROR Twilight. We'd be kidnapping and banishing Pony Twilight, presumably while keeping this a secret from everyone else.

I just want it to be clear that it's a VERY selfish choice on Velvet's part, and trying to pretend otherwise is just lying.



Are you really telling me that the Name of Knock would just, forget how to do this the moment we complete the Sacrament? If we really genuinely want to make it happen and we ask, nicely, I think Axe would be amenable considering it's not just us wanting an exotic vacation. Axe has opinions regarding abandonment, no? Explaining what we want to do and why, I think, would garner some sympathy.


If it really comes down to it then I'm not going to support pulling the switch out of some misguided "but we have to do something!" fallacy. It's a bad idea, pure and simple. That said, refusing to look for alternatives out of pessimism is to my mind just as bad. We have resources, lots of them, we just need to at least attempt to put them to use.
We shouldn't assume we can predict what she'll want to do.

For all we know she might wish to visit and meet her new family. Or she might want to never have anything to do with this dimension again.

I THINK she'll be fine letting us visit. But we don't KNOW that, and as Bird said, we shouldn't assume we'll be able to come back.

IF we can come back again, we MIGHT consider alternative solutions to Twilight, like visiting to teach while giving her "assignments" like building us lore-detectors to bring back, or do other stuff for us... but of course we're in constant AP HELL, and we have multiple Names to keep summoned and loyal, Rituals to do, Expeditions to fund, Artifacts and Books to study, Sacraments to pursue...

Mirror Twilight is likely just not worth the effort compared to that. Definitely not if the quest ends after All In expedition, and even if it doesn't she still might not be worth it (but then we'd be able to decide later).

But, that's also not really possible. Or at least, not the "run" that is happening. Velvet has made... so many mistakes. Votes have gone haywire, and if there was a "Good" Ending, then with the Wolf Actions that have been taken, it would make sense that we are "Locked" out of it. But People are still trying to aim in that direction.
A "perfect" ending was never really going to be possible considering that our QM has never shied away from giving us TRUE difficulty and making us pay for our mistakes. Something that in most quests doesn't really happen.

Most quests are played on easy mode. Some are even LITERALLY Pay to Win (Think Rihaku's or Sage of Eye's quests. the first one LITERALLY gives bonuses if you pay the Patreon, and both give bonuses for Omake written. They're good writers and write good quests and stories, but it's undeniable that while their quests might have been meant to be "difficult", they often became pay/write-omake-to-win.

This quest is not like that.

We don't get a +5 to a roll for each omake, allowing us to reliably hit DC 150 and beyond.

We don't have complete information.

We don't have the luxury of pursuing all we want, we always have to pick and choose, and sometimes we can't afford to deal with threats and have to take risks we'd rather not, like with not investigating the Master or Windy.

What I'm saying is that, in a quest like this with plenty of MEANINGFUL choices and constraints and with incomplete information, a "perfect" run where we never lose and never make mistakes and never suffer casualties was quite literally impossible.

But of course many of us will still try to go for the closest we can to that.

Which is probably a big part of why we want and hope to "fix" things with Twilight.

Because she was our biggest mistake, or at least the biggest that's not beyond any hope of recovery (See Starry and Copper). She should have been the heroine, the next princess, Basically MLP's Messiah, and we ruined that.

But as long as she's alive, it's not impossible to make things better.


Not everyone cares that much about her and trying to fix things. But some of us do. Nothing wrong with that, just like there's nothing wrong about those voting for the Wolf. Different people want different things from this story.

I'd just like some honesty about those goals, and not pretending that for example Twilight is better off left alone (though admittedly she shouldn't be approached without a GOOD plan, and preferably NOT by Velvet) and/or that chucking her into a different dimension is "for her own good".

I found this quite interesting, but here's how I would personally phrase it; the main conflict between factions in the Quest is people treating it as a Game first, or as a Story first. I agree that a player who's trying to win as quickly and efficiently as possible would be frustrated by having to co-op with another player who is willing to make sub-optimal moves for the sake of creating what they see as a better story.
that's a very good way to put it.

If we want to win, then anything that doesn't directly help achieving a victory is pointless.

But other players are trying to play things as (they think) Velvet would, for example. Which means that Twilight gets a lot more attention she "rationally" deserves.

Or others are thinking of Twilight's role in MLP canon, and want to put things "on the right track", for example
We are never coming back do you really think the DoA will want to have anything to do with the place that killed her sister.

that's a possibility. She might also instead decide she wants to meet her various nephews and nieces. We really don't know.

Or maybe she'll "BREAK" The Foggy Mirror, and make it impossible to ever come back here again.

who knows.

Your definition of Love is (at least sometimes) very twisted, considering you often mention "loving" our wolf-children

Spending time with Cadence, spoiling Selene, taking Rarity out to a party, showing Jade the wonders to be found in the world, cuddling our sons. These are things I want to do.
Case in point.

Isn't love supposed to be unconditional though?
Anyway, now that we know there is nothing we can and should do even in an impossible land, we can well and truly say that we have discharged our duty and debt to Twilight to the best of our ability, which finishing the transfer does not do but adds more stuff on our plate to deal with someone we don't care about all the much (for now)?
I have to disagree we have discharged our duty and debt to Twilight.

FOR NOW we have nothing more we can do for her. There might be opportunities in the future, though they mostly depend on actions from other people, really. Mainly Selene, Cadance and Soft Sweeps, at least for now, and if the quest is not over after All In (or if we somehow deal with the Daybreaker problem before then) maybe Celestia too.

...what are we going to do with her though?
Because I am 100% sure there will be at least 1 AP spent on ensuring the switch does not cause problems in the medium term, to unknown degree of success.
Admittedly she'd take some effort to be made useful, including for example lessons. But yeah, while I DON'T want to take her she WOULD be useful.

If nothing else it's one more body for expeditions, or she could assist in Velvet's actions...

Having Velvet make a promise and only giving the players agency and information after the damage had been done kinda poisoned that, because it seemed disingenuous. The players weren't given agency to make the promise, only to break it, which felt like railroading for the sake of drama. Velvet was only an endless curse on Twilight's life because The Author decreed it: if she hadn't been locked into cutscene mode the decision could have been made in a way that wouldn't have been a total betrayal.
I'm going to argue it was a mix of bad choices and REALLY bad luck.

Her Fascination (due to us ignoring her for a bit), our half-assed initial attempts at recruiting her, our "do not break her faith in Celestia" decision (I still wonder if it was always going to result in her being kidnapped, or if there was a secret roll for it), her horn being broken, us failing our rolls to get her trust when rescuing her AND when trying to approach her again (we could have offered the Forge ritual with a higher roll, or if we had not lost the grail influence to Mareinette!), our unwise decision to report about her to the Cult (and in the wrong way too. we didn't pitch her as a potential recruit or as valuable in her own right, just as a potential tool connected to the princesses...)...

We made plenty of mistakes about her, AND in addition to that we were fairly unlucky in most of the important rolls regarding her.

We've also explicitly been told that Axe hates feeling like she's in debt, and we've seen that she thinks in very transactional terms. We were sent to find out what happened to her family/sisterhood, using the medallion. We did that, and recovered her sister's final message for her.

By the terms, that's all that we were obligated to accomplish. That we found the Key, was completely unexpected and is outside the aggreed-on deal. That's how Axe thinks.

Now, when we give the Key over, that will constitute a gift/favor/debt in her mind, because that's how she thinks.

Furthermore, Axe also strongly disapproves of abandonment, as we have also seen in her conversations with Luna. Personal loyalty matters to her.

I think facilitating this endeavor is something that would not be out of character for her in the least, though there would doubtlessly be the usual obligatory grumbling.
That's a valid reading. the point is that Axe is also fairly emotional, and for all we know she might not want anything to do with this world ever again for taking her sister from her.

As bird said: do not assume Axe will be willing.

if she is, good. that's a pleasant surprise

What I want is for DoV to grant the Silver Key to Selene.

Also to have Velvet and Selene talk about the Wolf Sacrament and leave the choice in Selene's hooves. Velvet/thread aren't thinking clearly on this topic, it needs fresh eyes.
Fresh eyes that truly understand how awful the wolf is will always refuse the Wolf unless it's life or death.

Right now it's NOT like or death. We have BETTER alternatives for Winter (only 3 deaths, bad but not as bad as what the Wolf would be) and Edge (a fight with Biedde, doable with Edge Influence and a couple AOTL).

good point about the Silver Key for Selene though, and I imagine we could also ask Biedde to share his Sacrament with Selene (she'd have an easier time than us, really, if he still asked her for a fight).

Admittedly we don't have a source of Winter or Moth Sacraments for her... but then again, maybe she can pursue her PERSONAL ones? something to verify later.

Our payment for this task was the Sacrament. We use the key to free DoA and the payment is DoA backing Velvet going for the Glory.

Reminder Godhood is on the table, if anything Velvet is underpaying with something as useless as physically freedom. Not when Velvet getting the Glory means she rules the world, reality itself becomes a prison that conforms to Velvets will.
I think you might be overstating the degree of power Velvet would have. Not even the mightiest of Hours was ever TRULY Omnipotent.

Not having other Hours to oppose Velvet would help (assuming passing through the Tricuspid means instant Hour-hood, which Is NOT a certainty!), but there might still be Gods-from-Nowhere, or maybe New Hours will be born in the future (or new mortals will ascend).

I hope we can just tell mirror!Twilight that it is possible to bring her with us, but preparations would have to be made on the other side first.
that might be worse. What if we can't come back? It's false hope.

Hey, I'm not the bunch that wants to hand everything in the world over to the equivalent of Cenobites for endless torture.

That's you guys.
And this is why you're just not credible. You argue in bad faith, as if valuing other things beside "fight the worms" automatically means we want the Worms to win.

You misunderstand, a bit. The thing in contention is not that Harmony's light attracts Worms. We know it does, because it's the brightest thing in Nowhere, and finding out how to get around that seems to be the premise of the Harmony victory path. The thing that Shaper believes is that it is doing it on purpose with the express intent of destroying the world, and therefore anything Harmonious = Evil and Bad.

Despite, y'know, it's light literally being so anathema to the Worms that the alicorns just straight up vaporize lesser Worms and the Elements of Harmony being able to contain and purify a Worm-infested Luna.
If anything I'd rather believe that Harmony is attracting them TO KILL THEM rather than doing it maliciously.

For all we know a strong enough light could kill the Major Worms too, after all.
 
That's disingenuous, Shaper is one of the extremely few here that does not charge our Sons with the sins of the father, so it is not a surprising motivation.
The funny thing is they have been commiting their own sins literally since the moment they were born. Considering Evil is, well, Evil and Paranoia actively divides ponies and we can't forget Ash giving nightmares to ponies.
 
Because unless Shaper's stopped since I put him on Ignore, he consistently advocates for taking Regrettable Actions all the way up to the 6/7 mark, which objectively would make the world a worse place several times over.
Well, a good while ago he was quite persistent with it, but nowadays it's just a comment whenever something related comes up- or when we annoy him enough to only type a sentence or two, then its wolf time as well.


You're also forgetting that the worsening of the world does not touch those that are ours, so I think it still fits.

Like, Family first has been Velvets motivation for as long as I remember, in story and out of it as stated by Our Lady and many of us on multiple occasions. Would you not call it love, to doom the world for someone?


The funny thing is they have been commiting their own sins literally since the moment they were born. Considering Evil is, well, Evil and Paranoia actively divides ponies and we can't forget Ash giving nightmares to ponies.
I repeat what I pointed out at the time, our latest Son is free of malice.
Our very own homunculus in a bottle, free of sin as we make him pray for the downfall of our enemies.

He is a newborn, doing the job his parents gave him and happily wagging his tail as he leads us to what he thinks we want.

The negativity of the wording used by our oldest was also quite colored by Velvets bias IMO, she has been a poor mother of wolves, treating them as abominations when all they've done is do their best.
How could we expect them to know better when we have not done our part in raising them? When the only influence they have is agony?

I've openly said that I treat this as a story first and a game second, and if there ever is a choice to "destroy" the wolves then I will oppose it, even if it's that or Glory.
Velvet would not kill her child.
 
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I say just leave Mirror Twilight be, she's got a Lore detector and confirmation that the Lores exist in a world that demonstrably has the Lores, she's not actually doomed to never find any sort of Eldritch spookiness in an endless futile search. She just needs to miniaturize her current device to something hand-portable and wander around until the beeping starts, basically.
 
She just needs to miniaturize her current device to something hand-portable and wander around until the beeping starts, basically
So far, the lore that has been seen comes from Velvet and a dead snake.
Moth, SH and Knock have been used to traverse the place, there's no proof they were used to make the place.
But sure, leave the Lore Junkie to overdose on fascination and dread both as we leave her behind, no biggie.
 
I repeat what I pointed out at the time, our latest Son is free of malice.

He is a newborn, doing the job his parents gave him and happily wagging his tail as he leads us to what he thinks we want.

The negativity of the wording used by our oldest was also quite colored by Velvets bias IMO, she has been a poor mother of wolves, treating them as abominations when all they've done is do their best.
How could we expect them to know better when we have not done our part in raising them? When the only influence they have is agony?

I've openly said that I treat this as a story first and a game second, and if there ever is a choice to "destroy" the wolves then I will oppose it, even if it's that or Glory.
Velvet would not kill her child.
No he is not, he is just smarter than the others.

The "job" Velvet gave him was two things: Kill Copper and Stalk if you want, but do not Feast or Starve.
The "job" the Wolf gave him was: Make the World a worse place.

Those are very different things and honestly all I can think when I hear that "They are Velvet's Sons too" argument is how you guys underestimate a literal god of the end that wants to kill everything and then itself and the influence he has over beings he made while Velvet was only what he used to birth them. I also think about how the fuck a single mortal pony is supposed to counter the Wolf by herself and convince his creations to rebel against their purpose.

Evil literally took a bite out of Velvet right after he was born and left her half-dead so he is a poor son too. You said it yourself "the only influence they have is agony" and Velvet can't change that, because she can't change them... she doesn't have the power to do that.

Also how are we supposed to raise them when the only one we can interact with is Ash? The Wolf has a massive advantage being a Hour(a god) in connecting with his creations, Velvet can't do that.

If Velvet really cared about the Sons they would be in our contact list under "Your Family" but they are not.
 
I say just leave Mirror Twilight be, she's got a Lore detector and confirmation that the Lores exist in a world that demonstrably has the Lores, she's not actually doomed to never find any sort of Eldritch spookiness in an endless futile search. She just needs to miniaturize her current device to something hand-portable and wander around until the beeping starts, basically.
Problem is not that Velvet can't teach her initial steps to go to Mansus herself, it is that cultists usually needed some kind of support structure to pull through. Or dread, fascination and other Mansus dangers would get to them rather soon. Otherwise they would not gather in cults and other organizations.
 

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