Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[Cochimetl]

As for the rest of it, maybe have a tiny bit more charity for other people motivations? I was firmly in the "Fuck Hill" camp, but I would absolutely have never even brought up or felt the need to do anything to him if we didn't need to do something horrible to someone in order to not die. I disagree with your moral stance as far as that goes but I don't think it's that far apart that it's worth calling other posters evil.

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I don't think you're evil. You're not the one going "what's even the point of eating someone if it's not someone we know?".

I voted for Ash. I have no room to call others evil for what they vote for.
Buf if someone consistently advocates for Velvet to do evil because they like seeing Velvet do evil, I don't think it's uncalled for to call this out.

Not that I don't understand it! I like our sister quest on SV, where Emir doesn't give a shit about morals. It's fun to read!
But it's not what I read this quest for. It's not what we've been shaping Velvet with our votes into these last years.

 

[Nevermort]

I looked over Mareinette gift options and what people think about Access option?
By now we know that Mareinette can enter at will. And also that she considers Velvet's children as belonging to Velvet. Also Velvet accepting Mareinette friendship leads to the same result regardless. And Silky is champion at Name befriending.

We will need to work on lifting Selene's (and Velvet vetoes) but if it is existing option then it is theoretically possible. Something like [] Clear air between Mareinette and Luna. Make Mareinette swear not to cause any harm to your daughters.

I think something like this would need to be done as FO regardless as Luna will need soothing if Velvet suddenly becomes buddy buddy with Mareinette, so why not get ahead of the train.
If sacrament option wins Velvet would not need to explain to Luna why she made deal with Mareinette
If not then between artifact and access it is potentially six turns to prepare for All-in.

 

[DelightedOne]

I looked over Mareinette gift options and what people think about Access option?

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I think that just like before

[-] Access
-"But a hoofstep, into the place you call home?"
-VETOED by Velvet Covers and Selene.

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Selene will be against it, maybe Velvet too. Besides, why give something she already has?

 

[Nevermort]

I think that just like before

Selene will be against it, maybe Velvet too. Besides, why give something she already has?

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Which is why I suggested social action for Velvet to take:
[] Clear air between Mareinette and Luna. Make Mareinette swear not to cause any harm to your daughters

in the hopes that it would lift said veto or at least become a step toward it.

As for Mareinette motivation it is the fact that she appreciate gestures and apparently likes befriending Alicorns. Also she made bad first impression on Selena and undoubtedly sad about it

 

[Sveta08]

i am not the best voice for it, and I already said my piece about this vite... But for the Velvet as the whole? I can say what I see at least.

I see Velvet as trying to do what she believes is the right thing. It may be a bottomless well of asterisks attached to the belief of what is right, and what has to happen, but... That is what I see.

I see people disagree.
People see actions that Velvet could have taken that would be more moral or good and decry her as Evil because... Well, she could be better.
People see actions that Velvet took trying to avoid potentially worse outcomes and call her Good because, well, she is trying.
And this isn't a wishy-washy "No one is right guys!" This is the consequence of power handed to someone who wants to do good, as defined by themselves. Nothing will fit perfectly. It very nearly can't. With power comes responsibility, and decisions with more murky and difficult consequence. And every single one of us can imagine a road-not-taken where things are better.

Velvet doesn't believe she's a good pony. She believes she tries, and believes sometimes she doesn't try as hard. A good pony wouldn't have needed a cult. She did.
Like three steps down on a slippery slope, I see Velvet fighting. Trying to do what is right. And that it's hard. That it's easy. That it's useful even if she slips.


Shoot, in "The Sweetest Lie" that's the point. It's tempting, because it gives you what you want. But it is undeniably cruel.
That's the point.

 

[ses]

You are Velvet Covers, and you have come to a decision.

And that decision is... that you will do your best.

You realize that you are not perfect. You realize that you have made mistakes, throughout your life. You realize that those mistakes affect other ponies.

However... you also realize that you didn't really care about that as much as you should. Until very recently.

Until very recently, you were just drifting through your life. Allowing others to make your decisions for you, merely going along with the circumstances of your birth and the events of your life. You know that you were lucky, of course, luckier than most, considering how much of a good life you ended up with even though you didn't really have much of a say in what direction you were going. You ended up with a loving husband, and a precious daughter, yes, but even then you were still just... drifting.

All of that changed, when this whole mess began.

You learned things... things that you sometimes wish you hadn't. You did things, or at least you helped do things, that ended up affecting more ponies than you could ever imagine. You have been made to carry burdens, be them guilts, or blames, or responsibilities, or duties, that reached much farther than anything else you have ever done.

You aided in Princess Luna's search, and you concealed Princess Luna.

You helped the cult grow, and you empowered the cult.

You learned from the Master, and then you summoned her.

Together with... so many other things.

But, again, you have not been perfect. Maybe because you didn't know enough. Maybe because you didn't think things through. Maybe because you weren't willing to make certain decisions.

And you know you will not suddenly become perfect. You know you will not suddenly start getting things right, or that you will discover everything that you have to at the drop of a hat.

However, you will still try to do your best.

But that is the thing.

You will do YOUR best.

And nopony else's.

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From [The Brazen Step], emphasis mine.

"Velvet," she says, taking a few cautious steps towards you.

Which makes you realize that, at some point, you got back on your hoofs and walked backwards and away from her.

"I'm really, really sorry," she says, as she once again brings a foreleg towards you.

Her hoof is hot as it touches your cheek, and for some reason her hoof feels wet. Or is it your cheek that is wet, and she is just drying it with her touch?

"Because I'm… really bad with words. But you have always been good at understanding, so I hope this evens it out again…" she says, her words feeling strangely familiar, for some reason.

After she is done with your cheeks, her hoofs go to your shoulders, which makes you realize you are trembling.

"But I need to tell you that… you are the best mare for the job, Velvet. Nopony else would have been able to do as much as you have. Anypony else who had tried would have done less… and would have committed more mistakes. If it wasn't you, Velvet, it would have been somepony else… maybe me. And things would have been worse."

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From Jade being best pony, emphasis mine.

I feel those are accurate summations.

 

[Alan975]

-but unlike Shaper, the other voices are starting to listen to you for some god-forsaken reason.

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?
?? ! ???
Basically, everything I say is the dumbed down middle ground of Sveta and Shaper, often wrapped in thinly veiled condescension towards whatever knee-jerk reaction is being pushed at the time, when exactly have people been listening to me?

Closest thing I could see is the pivot when Ses got seriously involved as our general mindset seems to match, or lore preferences at least.

I find this kinda funny actually, I've basically been doing the exact thing Shaper got lambasted for? Smaller scale and smaller reaction though, still ironic when those discussions about motive and shortsightedness are probably the basis of the opinions that I have about this now.

We're about as close to letting Velvet EAT A PERSON as we've ever been, and I largely blame you for that.

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Oh I wish that were true, but this is nothing new.
When has Velvet ever taken a risk for someone else? When has the quester ever taken a risk for someone that wasn't predicted to lead directly to minions?
Maybe Cadanse, even though that turned out the same.
Not Twilight, neither n.1 or 2.

I haven't read the old stuff in a while -and yes, I did actually read the discussions, that's why I only caught up too late to engage on SV- but I might have to put that higher up on my priorities if what you say is in any way true.

Because as far as I remember, the things I advocate for are what Velvet has always done, what the questers have always voted for.
Take what we want, doom the world for it.
Get the shiny, make someone else bleed for it, feel bad about it later. Do it over and over again.


But that isn't what seems to be bothering you.
"letting Velvet EAT A PERSON"
She has done worse, We have done worse.

It's not that it is inherently bad that has made you speek up and look for someone to blame, but that the aesthetic no longer allows one to ignore just how far she has fallen.

Buf if someone consistently advocates for Velvet to do evil because they like seeing Velvet do evil, I don't think it's uncalled for to call this out.

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Since the very start here on QQ, I've talked about wanting to see her do stuff in character. You only notice this because of the few times that I'm out of sync with the quire.

I don't want Velvet to be bad, nor do I want her to be good.

As somepony that has taken these steps, as somepony that has set ourher sight on the goal and trampled on so many backs to get where she is..

She knows of the solution, and it is just out of reach. She has a responsibility to get there, or lie down and die already.

May her reign be magnificent.
or her fall even more so.

 

[DelightedOne]

I find this kinda funny actually, I've basically been doing the exact thing Shaper got lambasted for?

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Yes, but Shaper also managed to alienate almost everyone in the old thread so your words have more "value" even if they are the same, because his come from a dubious source.

When has Velvet ever taken a risk for someone else?

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1. Keeping Selene instead of giving her to the Master and risking being found out.

2. Saving Twilight and risking a trigger event.

3. Choosing to spare the changeling and not force Jade Whistle to kill even though it guaranteed success and failure would force her to do it.

4. Telling Fluttershy all the truth about Comet Feet because she knew she couldn't save him by herself.

5. Using the Rite of the Mother and the Father instead of The Incision of the Heart to make sure Selene would wake up properly instead of waking Luna up before turn 18.

She does take risks for others, she doesn't do it to get Minions or rewards either, Velvet feels so deeply and strongly losing one family member breaks her, that losing a not quite friend(Starry) shocks her, that failing to reach Twilight makes her refuse to give any help because she believes she ruined everything beyond the help of anypony.

She is also manipulative and tries to keep people on her orbit. Not out of malice but because she has a need to control and protect those she is close to and she tries her best to do good for them.

Because as far as I remember, the things I advocate for are what Velvet has always done, what the questers have always voted for.
Take what we want, doom the world for it.
Get the shiny, make someone else bleed for it, feel bad about it later. Do it over and over again.

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It is interesting how you made it sound like what Velvet wants and what the players want are the same thing when we know it is not.

Just take a look at the Tribal Door vote and you will see what I mean. Velvet hated it, the players just wanted to get it over with as fast as possible.


Velvet is not a perfect pony, she isn't good but at least she tries. When I see people wanting to throw it all away and go full bad "because it is easier" (even if "That is not what I said") while ignoring the benefits our constant attempts to balance Velvet have given us is... frustrating to say the least.

This conflict is also(at least to me) a very interesting part of her character and it would be a shame to see it disappear because of something as mundane as boredom or impulsiveness.

 

[ses]

On happier and more present topics, can I just say I'm very excited to finally for the very first time see our fully armed and operational moon princess in action? Turn 7 we obtained Selene, Turn 17 we finished her training, Turn 18 we did the Rite of Mom and Dad, and then Turn 21 we finished her training actions and now, with barely any time left before quest end she's FINALLY paying back all that investment in [AP]! Two thirds of the quest spent towards this moment! Three actions a turn! All of her actions from turns 19 to 21 were training actions, except a single unused Guard action, accompanying an Assault, and a Soothe the Night. But now we can cackle maniacally at our best princess daughter blasts out rituals on our behalf!

(Granted she also deserves credit for her role in getting us Cadance and the Bureau into our faction, which she did without AP expenditure and we couldn't have done it without her. Isnt she just the best?)

1. Keeping Selene instead of giving her to the Master and risking being found out.

2. Saving Twilight and risking a trigger event.

3. Choosing to spare the changeling and not force Jade Whistle to kill even though it guaranteed success and failure would force her to do it.

4. Telling Fluttershy all the truth about Comet Feet because she knew she couldn't save him by herself.

5. Using the Rite of the Mother and the Father instead of The Incision of the Heart to make sure Selene would wake up properly instead of waking Luna up before turn 18.

She does take risks for others, she doesn't do it to get Minions or rewards either, Velvet feels so deeply and strongly losing one family member breaks her, that losing a not quite friend(Starry) shocks her, that failing to reach Twilight makes her refuse to give any help because she believes she ruined everything beyond the help of anypony.

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We literally died and ended up Dancing With Death because the thread chose to reveal the scar to Cadance purely because otherwise she would be sad and no other reason or gain, and got killed for it at the very last second before we would have been able to FR and rendered that decision moot. I have absolutely zero patience for neo-Puritan original sin "heads I win tails you lose" gaslighting bullshit.

 

[DelightedOne]

We literally died and ended up Dancing With Death because the thread chose to reveal the scar to Cadance purely because otherwise she would be sad and no other reason or gain

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I don't agree with the idea that is what made us dance with death, going to the Church was the mistake here. But telling Cadance did end up being a negative because of that.

(Granted she also deserves credit for her role in getting us Cadance and the Bureau into our faction, which she did without AP expenditure and we couldn't have done it without her. Isnt she just the best?)

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She also calmed the Daughter-of-Axes fury just by being herself. We would probably not be able to befriend her if she hadn't or something bad would happen.

 

[Rafuki22]

We would probably not be able to befriend her if she hadn't or something bad would happen.

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Presumably, we would have been able to befriend Axe if we hadn't chosen the family option, maybe would have been harder, maybe wouldn't have been, probably harder, but still possible.

 

[DelightedOne]

Presumably, we would have been able to befriend Axe if we hadn't chosen the family option, maybe would have been harder, maybe wouldn't have been, probably harder, but still possible.

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That was more about "are you just a freak... or are you a monster too?" Selene remembering the promise she made is what caused the Daughter-of-Axes to not initiate combat, if IotH was used it would have cut away what wasn't needed and with the amount of hints that update had that Mother and Father was the right ritual to keep Selene's memory I believe Selene fits that criteria.

I don't think she would have been fine with Velvet after this, probably plotting to take Silky away before Velvet did anything to her(she had suspicions that would definitely be confirmed by Luna waking up).

 

[Pittauro]

Taking out Hill or Rich got talked up as some kind of irredeemable or inherently corruptive option, as opposed to some random that Velvet has no motive to go after?

The less said about the "Just find a criminal," the better, cuz apparently knowing the face of the target and acting like judge, jury and cook is worse than not knowing it?

If we have to send a Name to go fetch a no-name, then why not go for "Give me a spreadsheet of the vilest bastard in Equestria and a dartboard" if every action has to be made by The Good Velvet (TM)?

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For what matters I plan to propose a vote that will have Velvet do a scrying to PERSONALLY find a "victim" she can live with. I imagine this will allow us to better direct Axe in her action @OurLadyOfWires

In any case the way I see it (and there's definitely different opinions about it in this thread) is that, to put it in extremely simple terms

1) Spoiled doesn't deserve to be eaten.
2) Our father, AS FAR AS VELVET KNOWS, doesn't deserve to be eaten, AND even worse doing this is an act of revenge and self-indulgence in Velvet's worst traits. If we pick him rather than anyone else, when ever getting a pedophile or serial killer would likely be easier, it means Velvet is explicitly taking advantage of her need to kill someone for the power-ritual to actually take revenge as well. And I don't like that (well, I'd like to read it, but I don't like it FOR VELVET.

3)about killing a criminal (and to be clear I'm talking about the very worst criminals), I see it as Velvet, after (keep in mind) her near-death experience, and with the pressure of Celestia breathing down on her neck AND Glory getting closer...

...with victory AND defeat both potentially so close...

Velvet is deciding that she can't afford some of the risks she took before. That sometimes necessary evils are, well, necessary.

And so she'll do them, because she's the only one who can, but even in doing so she's trying to do the least evil for the most gain.

That gain IS personal (power, the friendship of a Name), BUT she's trying to use it for a good end (stop worms, hope of using the power from Glory to fix things as much as possible).

I'd add something else, which I might expand upon in reply to other posts: If you have power and want to achieve a goal, at some point you'll likely have to decide just how far you're willing to go.

Velvet is in a position of power. Besides the Bureau, she has the potential to become a GOD, at least as far as she knows.

Just what is the highest acceptable cost for the power to accomplish everything you want? Kings and Presidents have done worse for less, and I won't say more to avoid dipping into politics.

Eh, I prefer Personal Lantern.

The Sacrament direction just appears to be so much better then Baldomare's.

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it's MAYBE better, but it's also more expensive and objectively morally worse. I'm kinda trying to go for a Velvet that's willing to do evil stuff when she judges she has no better alternative (example: Grail Sacrament with Mareinette with the worst victim she can get).

With Lantern, she HAS a morally acceptable choice, Baldomare just wants some people for an expedition.

As for the power itself... my best guess is Baldomare = no need to decypher books, skip that part + you know all languages (narratively), while Personal = enhanced interrogation method (drain knowledge with a touch. it MIGHT or might not kill the target every time, which makes the power more or less flexible).

It's a Colonel based Sacrament though.

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I'm not convinced that necessarily makes it worse by itself, but we admittedly don't know

There's a reason I was anti personal Moth Sacrament and pro Master Sacrament.

Really though we could have just followed my old plan back in the day and gotten our Sacrament from the Master.

This action, this cruelty, it was unnecessary.

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I was in favor of Moth Sacrament over Personal Sacrament too, when both were options. Not much of a point in talking about that though.

We didn't expect the Master to leave like that, and when he came back we decided the cost for it (allowing him to replace Flurry Heart) was too much.

As usual, we're trying to deal with many spinning plates. Some of those occupied us at the time to the point we couldn't take the Master's Sacrament in time. Hindsight makes it easy to say "we should have done x".

Hindsight also says that we should have NEVER studied the Lantern 6 book, and that we probably should have taken Neighnia over the book as well in the multiple-routes update from the nat-100 SH.

Not a guess, the Moth target specifically becomes "The Amazing Sir Not Appearing In This Quest", per QM ages ago when asked this question many many times. We don't have to worry about loose ends or whatever.

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not my point though. I'm wondering how the "mothed" character will actually FEEL about the whole situation. The Sacrament is a bit unclear in how it actually works on them, after all.

I get the MECHANICS, I'm wondering about the narrative.

Personally I think we don't need to do Personal Winter. It's three murders for the sake of a marginal power gain (literally only +1 lore level for All In. We'd be twice as well off.... taking a Risen. If we spent those 3 AP on graverobbing and Risen-making we'd get quadruple the Winter levels for All-In and spend 90 bits fewer. Not much of a payoff for as many murders as we've previously committed combined, all under extreme pressure), and we unlock the Sun-In-Rags expedition that Windy has probably already looted bare lmao.

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fair about Sun-in-Rags, fair about high (moral) cost.

I... also kinda still have some hope of finding Neighnia and get one from her, really. Though it's not MUCH hope.

Frankly I find the argument that Velvet is or can even be a good pony, as missing the point entirly. That ship sailed the moment Velvet chose to keep Selene for herself, instead of returning her to Celestia.

To put it simply VELVET IT NOT A GOOD PONY, that decision was made actual years ago both in and out of universe, get over it.

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Disagree. There WERE good arguments to not bring her to Celestia.

We didn't know HOW she'd restore Selene into Luna.

We guessed she wouldn't listen when we told her "we need 12 months to teach her safely"

We also guessed she wouldn't believe us about the Worms.

all of those are fair points!

That's not Velvet being evil, at worst that's Velvet deciding "she knows better" (arguably she did) and that Selene's complete and safe recovery was worth more than Celestia's peace of mind.

And, I suppose, the life of those guards sent pointlessly to search in dangerous locations, but we didn't really get a choice in that anyway (as voters I mean).

I disagree.
Velvet is not a Good Pony in the sense that she is not a law-abiding, harmony-serving follower of the rule of Celestia. She is a criminal, she is a murderer, she has brought corruption into Equestria.
She is a good pony in the sense that she tries to do the best she can. She's getting increasingly warped through her Lore and Glory exposure, but she tries her damn best

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I wouldn't say Velvet is good, but I also wouldn't say she's bad. Ultimately despite the My Little Pony background this is still an eldritch horror quest and Velvet is the protagonist. She's come a long way power wise, but compared to the forces arranged against her she's still weak. We got hammered by that fact with the Master. We see it now with Celestia's doom clock and the Mareinette's bindings. Realistically she was always going to slip some, she's a mother who loves her family and friends. Unless she wanted to just die and take the world with her there was no choice. The question becomes how many lines she has to cross and can she step back from them or allow them to warp her view. Does she only do what she's forced to, or does she give in multiple times because it's easier.
Despite what she's done and ultimately will do she still can look for the good in the world and other ponies. As long as that doesn't change she's still holding on.

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I think another way to put it is this:

Velvet has power and knowledge. She knows that some things NEED to be done (worms), that if she fails there's a non-trivial risk of apocalypse, and that nobody else can do what she does.

She also, at the same time, obviously cares the most about her family than anything else.

AND she knows she's very, VERY close to... potentially godhood, more powers than the PRINCESSES and NAMES have.

she definitely wants that for selfish reasons too, but... Just imagine, if you were THIS close to get all the power necessary to fix the world the way you think it should be... how much would you be willing to pay for it?

If Mareinette being on our side makes us 5% more likely to achieve this goal (and I think nobody will deny that achieving this goal is a good thing, better than the alternative of not achieving it for most beings really)... is that worth a life?

isn't that the kind of choice everyone in power has to take all the time? When a ruler starts a war, no matter for what reason, they're deciding the cause is worth the lives lost. When someone decides not to negotiate with a criminal with hostages, they know they're potentially sacrificing the hostages for a better chance of no hostages being taken in the future.

Velvet, in this situation, in my opinion, is deciding that sacrificing one pony (and, selfishly, this pony is not someone she directly cares for, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate the point) to make her chances to accomplish her (mostly positive) goals is an acceptable cost.

I think it's a reasonable position. It's not "good". But I don't think it's black either.

And I think depending on the chosen victim, it can be a bit closer to a lighter gray than a darker one.

I think the Winter Sacrament is worse than the Grail one. I think even contemplating them to be in the same ballpark is crazy. The fact that the Invitation to Dinner prevents an enemy full powered Name matters for the calculus, since that probably matters more than the rest of the benefits combined it's more like declaring 88 random painless murders to be not worse than one cannibalism.

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I'm not sure I agree. I think it would kind of depends on... the how of the deaths, and the who is killed.

EiB deaths are kind of implied to be "peaceful" deaths. The fact we can't pick makes them worse in a way, though.

And... I'm kinda wondering... would the victim of the grail sacrament suffer? If I remember right the person who let themselves be eaten in the Grail Apostle run actually loves that feeling, but then again that one was a volunteer.

Would it even make it better if the experience was enjoyable for the victim instead of being painful? I want to say yes, but I find myself hesitating.

i am not the best voice for it, and I already said my piece about this vite... But for the Velvet as the whole? I can say what I see at least.

I see Velvet as trying to do what she believes is the right thing. It may be a bottomless well of asterisks attached to the belief of what is right, and what has to happen, but... That is what I see.

I see people disagree.
People see actions that Velvet could have taken that would be more moral or good and decry her as Evil because... Well, she could be better.
People see actions that Velvet took trying to avoid potentially worse outcomes and call her Good because, well, she is trying.
And this isn't a wishy-washy "No one is right guys!" This is the consequence of power handed to someone who wants to do good, as defined by themselves. Nothing will fit perfectly. It very nearly can't. With power comes responsibility, and decisions with more murky and difficult consequence. And every single one of us can imagine a road-not-taken where things are better.

Velvet doesn't believe she's a good pony. She believes she tries, and believes sometimes she doesn't try as hard. A good pony wouldn't have needed a cult. She did.
Like three steps down on a slippery slope, I see Velvet fighting. Trying to do what is right. And that it's hard. That it's easy. That it's useful even if she slips.


Shoot, in "The Sweetest Lie" that's the point. It's tempting, because it gives you what you want. But it is undeniably cruel.
That's the point.

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If you have power and a goal, and the goal is importance enough (and in this case it is), at some point you'll have to decide how much you're willing to pay and do for it.

As the risks AND the rewards become higher... Velvet is having to redefine what her limits are.

I think I'm fine with that. The risk of an unbound Mareinette, compared to the benefits of an allied Mareinette AND the grail sacrament right before going for Glory... It's tempting, and I'm not sure there's an actual right choice here.

From [The Brazen Step], emphasis mine.



From Jade being best pony, emphasis mine.

I feel those are accurate summations.

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I think it has to be acknowledged that, no matter how she goes about it, the Grail Sacrament is going to be an evil act.

The question then becomes, can someone commit an evil act, and still be a good person?

I think it's possible, and I think that making an effort to "mitigate" the evilness of the act helps in that (which is why I want to scry for the worst criminal we can, in an attempt at minimizing the evil we're committing).

Oh I wish that were true, but this is nothing new.
When has Velvet ever taken a risk for someone else? When has the quester ever taken a risk for someone that wasn't predicted to lead directly to minions?
Maybe Cadanse, even though that turned out the same.
Not Twilight, neither n.1 or 2.

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Definitely Twilight, actually.

If we just wanted her as a minion, we should have broken her faith in Celestia. There's an argument that our TRYING to be moral there actually made things worse (as it led to her being captured by the Changelings).

But that isn't what seems to be bothering you.
"letting Velvet EAT A PERSON"
She has done worse, We have done worse.

It's not that it is inherently bad that has made you speek up and look for someone to blame, but that the aesthetic no longer allows one to ignore just how far she has fallen.

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I actually don't think she has?

She sent some guards to her death, though arguably that wasn't our (the voters) choice.

She killed or ordered some deaths, but the changelings we sacrificed would have died anyway, and Copper DID try to kill us first (even if, admittedly, we betrayed her first.)

she has used the Leash on Rarity (to save her life), and on Shining Armor (to save her own hide, basically).

She pushed/forced Shining to propose to Cadance... but even if the action itself is wrong, it DID end up in something good for the most part.

I think the worst thing Velvet did was destroying the Tribal Door with the help of the Wolf, and in that most of us actually underestimated the downsides of the option.

Yes, but Shaper also managed to alienate almost everyone in the old thread so your words have more "value" even if they are the same, because his come from a dubious source.

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The main problem with Shaper is in my opinion that he explicitly goes "Velvet should love her wolf sons, because they're family/part of her", which is such a crazy take that it makes nearly everything else, even his good arguments, sus by association.

the "Harmony seems evil" and "Wolf Sacrament seems like a good deal" talk also doesn't help.

3. Choosing to spare the changeling and not force Jade Whistle to kill even though it guaranteed success and failure would force her to do it.

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to clarify for those who don't remember, she didn't KNOW it was a changeling. she just knew the Master wanted her to kill a fellow cultist for... I think no clear reason? I think the implication was that it was a traitor, but considering WE were planning a betrayal too...

your other points also count, yes. Velvet is TRYING to do good... in this specific case my read is that she thinks the risks of an unfriendly Mareinette compared to the benefits of a friendly Mareinette (and the Sacrament power) right when she's so close to Glory, which would let her WIN and get everything she wants INCLUDING protection from the Apocalypse), justify the evil action she's going to commit.

Just take a look at the Tribal Door vote and you will see what I mean. Velvet hated it, the players just wanted to get it over with as fast as possible.

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There was also some fear of the thread not being willing to kill those two ponies, effectively soft-locking us at that point in the Mansus.

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...damn, 1.8k words of replies

 

[Nevermort]

If we are proposing actions for Velvet @OurLadyOfWires would it be valid action:

[] Clear the air between Mareinette and Luna. Make Mareinette swear not to cause any harm to your daughters

I don't expect them to become immediate friends, but in ideal case to see if it can be a step toward lifting Selene's veto on gift Mareinette Access option . Unless it is not something removable?
Or at least to prevent fallout from befriending Mareinette if it happens. Velvet will have her hoofs full with Axe alone.

 

[Shaper47]

For what matters I plan to propose a vote that will have Velvet do a scrying to PERSONALLY find a "victim" she can live with. I imagine this will allow us to better direct Axe in her action

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Running low on bits here and it wastes an action when we have a Lantern influence for studying stuff.

 

[Limabot]

On a related note, I think it's unlikely, but imagine if we end up having one of the Flim-Flam Brothers as our Sacrament Prisoner. On one hand, they would probably also not deserve to be eaten. On the other, it would be (very belated) payback for selling Velvet that knockoff Forge Book at the start of the game.

 

[Sveta08]

I still think breaking the Tribal Door has been one of the best pieces of both characterization and consequence of this quest. And yes, I am ranking it over Burning the woods there.

It's just so... ripe for characterization.
Refusing to kill on one hand. Further refusing to kill because of what someone is on the other. The world as a whole suffering. How she learns then from it. Angrily, refusingly, sparingly.
It's just such a good narrative... tool? Arc? Echo? It's the written equivalent of a musical leitmotif. It keeps cropping up, keep talking about the same message.

Before with the changelings at the alter where The Master would breach the Wake. Before with the guards who sought out Luna. After with the guards who protected Twilight. How she responded with Path through Nightmares at Copper. It's all....
Death is a tool in her arsenal. A tool wielded with both fear and respect. She no longer seems to believe it has no place. But it's place...
It is not one of honor. It is a tool of regretful resort.



I look forward to the Grail Sacrament. I know it will be a problem like few others. And a resource like few others.

 

[Pittauro]

Running low on bits here and it wastes an action when we have a Lantern influence for studying stuff.

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I'm playing a Velvet walking the tightrope of "do what you must/need" and "try to be good, or at least not too evil".

So to me an action spent on... well, not using a random pickpocketer Axe found at the market and instead using a child abuser or something comparatively bad is worth it.

 

[Shaper47]

I'm playing a Velvet walking the tightrope of "do what you must/need" and "try to be good, or at least not too evil".

So to me an action spent on... well, not using a random pickpocketer Axe found at the market and instead using a child abuser or something comparatively bad is worth it.

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It's a really big opportunity cost though.

Not even counting the bits your sacrificing either future Moth Mastery or Knock Mastery and for what. Paranoia over Axes judgement.

 

[Pittauro]

It's a really big opportunity cost though.

Not even counting the bits your sacrificing either future Moth Mastery or Knock Mastery and for what. Paranoia over Axes judgement.

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I'm only sacrificing 1 AP, and a fairly negligible risk of us not doing both moth 5 and lantern 4. nothing more, but also nothing less.

I don't think it's paranoia. the vote is telling Axe to get us a criminal. Axe will find us one. If we tell her where to go, we can make sure it's a criminal that "deserves it" (as much as one can deserve this fate, at least).

 

[Shaper47]

I'm only sacrificing 1 AP, and a fairly negligible risk of us not doing both moth 5 and lantern 4. nothing more, but also nothing less.

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Look, Velvet has 4 AP for this turn

2 AP are pretty much locked on reading our Moth 5 book and studying our level 4 lantern artifact.

That leave 2 AP for studying other things.

Spending 1 AP studying the Frangiclave gives 2 Knock scraps. Setting us up for Knock Mastery.

Spending 1 AP on Baldomare's beacon gives a good chance of getting a Lantern scrap.

Being able to get Baldomare's lantern sacrament Turn 23 or Turn 24 sets us up for getting Moth Mastery Turn 25.

So wasting one AP and bits on needless scrying means sacrificing either 2 Knock scraps or a lantern scrap.

 

[Pittauro]

Spending 1 AP studying the Frangiclave gives 2 Knock scraps. Setting us up for Knock Mastery.

Spending 1 AP on Baldomare's beacon gives a good chance of getting a Lantern scrap.

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You mean the "beacon" in the Mansus? Is that even a location we can explore?

Also there's no frangiclave. Axe took it and we have no idea what she did with it

She might have brought it in the mirror world, or maybe it broke in the process of freeing her

 

[Shaper47]

You mean the "beacon" in the Mansus? Is that even a location we can explore?

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Don't see any reason why it wouldn't be.

We've seen it before but didn't get a chance to really investigate it.

Also there's no frangiclave. Axe took it and we have no idea what she did with it

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She was holding onto it in her interlude.

She's being greedy and not handling it over but studying it should be fine.

 

[DelightedOne]

I don't want to get between whatever this is but Shaper... Shouldn't you at least confirm with Bird if those are valid actions before putting them as part of your plan?

I believe that is the protocol for write-ins.

 

[Shaper47]

I don't want to get between whatever this is but Shaper... Shouldn't you at least confirm with Bird if those are valid actions before putting them as part of your plan?

I believe that is the protocol for write-ins.

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I think he gave the "go ahead and try" deal when I mentioned the idea before for the Beacon. But that was a long long time ago.

Good point I'll try and confirm with Bird.

@OurLadyOfWires Is studying Baldomare's beacon and borrowing the Frangiclave from Axe to study valid actions for Velvet to do?

 

[Sveta08]

She was holding onto it in her interlude.

She's being greedy and not handling it over but studying it should be fine.

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looks back at the unstudied artifacts
notices the Frangiclave isn't there

I think, that's hers now. Like... same way we aren't trying to study Pasharka's Diary.

 

[Shaper47]

looks back at the unstudied artifacts
notices the Frangiclave isn't there

I think, that's hers now. Like... same way we aren't trying to study Pasharka's Diary.

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I got the feeling that was more that it's not ours.

So we can't use it, sell it, sacrifice.

Studying is fine because we can stick our daughter on her and do it while she watches.

 

[ses]

The frangiclave is with Axe's real body in Equestria Girls and she is never going to let it off her person ever. Just let go of the idea already.

 

[Solace2117]

I'm tempted to vote for Velvet's personal SH sacrament since we'll have the reroll, but I'm leaning towards Steppe's FO. I know we'll get something either way, but considering how we're struggling with bits and resources it may be worth being able to have more options.

 

[ses]

I'm tempted to vote for Velvet's personal SH sacrament since we'll have the reroll, but I'm leaning towards Steppe's FO. I know we'll get something either way, but considering how we're struggling with bits and resources it may be worth being able to have more options.

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We only have 1 flex AP after the edge sacrament we're already locked into. If we want bits we should Teach Rarity to grail4/forge2 and get something like +10 bits/turn plus another 10+ bits per commission. This actually advances our gameplan instead of spending our AP to exert control over something that was going to give us goodies either way.

As for personal sacrament, having a max level SH influence is going to be a lot more important than the reroll anyway, so we should do them both in one turn the moment we have a spare Baldomare AP for it, probably turn 24.