Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[Greymere]

It's too bad that Heart is part of the Incision of the Heart, cause otherwise we'd have a very easy two picks for "what two Lores to teach last" in Winter and Heart. They're the defensive Lores and therefore kind of important, yes, but they're also the ones that would be most difficult to raise to Level 3 considering that whether we even go for Winter Sacrament is up in the air (and if we do whether we'd do personal or try and get Neighnia's somehow) and Heart 4 will pretty much have to be the work of multiple turns. Or at least two. I suppose we could technically hit Heart 4 on T24 by getting a Heart Influence next turn, befriending Mareinette, then taking 2 Heart lessons on T24, but that means we're not using her for anything else.

 

[DelightedOne]

Just realized something and I'm honestly wondering why I didn't ask before.

@OurLadyOfWires can Wrong Keys be used to supplement Jade's Knock in studying A Memory of the Path?

 

[Shaper47]

Why would Reagents help in that kind of study roll?

 

[DelightedOne]

Why would Reagents help in that kind of study roll?

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Good question. I'm asking because they are not exactly Reagents, at least from what I read here:

A short explanation for the consumable/temporary artifacts known as "Wrong Key"

-Can be used as a "Knock 3" reagent

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They are Artifacts that can be used as Reagents.

 

[Pororurin]

I would imagine not, since the wording reads to me as "narratively an artifact, functionally a reagent", but it couldn't hurt to get confirmation.

 

[Sveta08]

I am tired. But, I have been thinking!
Unlike some of the thoughts I've had though, while I hold special value on it, I don't consider it worthwhile enough to ensconce in writing, or to try to leverage and offer up as a nifty option. So, in short...

Maybe the Fleeting Opportunity with Steppes is going out with him to buy Silky her cutecinera gift.
It fits the theming, of a gift you can pick. That it's time spent with Steppes. That we will enjoy it regardless. And it's time specificly spent away from the pursuit of Glory, in purpose of spending time with family.
Just kinda... seems to fit I think.

 

[ses]

So this is weird to say but I just binged Oshi no Ko. I went in totally blind and had no idea what genre I was walking into and got totally blindsided, but.... am I schizo or are the parallels to @OurLadyOfWires 's worldbuilding and take on cultist simulator incredibly on point?

Like... I can't stop thinking of an Oshi no Ko House of the Sun. The relationship between Ai and the Master are crazy strong, maybe that's just my own take on the Master but she and Ai Hoshino were absolute mood kindreds to me. My brain is firing with ideas combining them, not to mention the entire thread of the Wolf when it comes to the twins...

I had to stop myself on multiple occasions to remind myself that I wasn't actually literally physically seeing any wolf imagery or the Bad Color on the screen whenever Aqua does his dark star eye thing, and that it was purely my brain drawing the connection but the similarities to how QM writes the Wolf was so strong it was actually hard to separate my imagination from the screen.

During the Season 2 OP there's a shot of Ai in front of a Doorway leading to a black vista of fans waving red glowsticks as well as a similar shot of red glowsticks against a pitch black background in the season 1 OP and it looks just like how I would imagine the Master shaking the trees of the Wood in the "raucous chorus"

TL;DR Oshi no Ko is a idol show/cultsim crossover anime about a Winter/Moth and Grail/Heart pair of twins learning the meaning of Agony

 

[spiderhellian]

TL;DR Oshi no Ko is a idol show/cultsim crossover anime about a Winter/Moth and Grail/Heart pair of twins learning the meaning of Agony

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Damn this sounds sick, I would 100% read this.

 

[Alan975]

...Don't tell me that that show is actually good? Thought it was just hyped up to hide all the ick

Haven't watched beyond episode one though, was so annoyed that the most interesting character just gets killed

 

[AuthorTransient]

Right... been sitting on this for a while, just never found the spoons to write it up. Uhhhh... On the Precipice; a Retrospective. A sort of negaverse? Iunno.

The common viewpoint is that the turning point was the corruption of Princess Cadenza.​

But you disagree.

Ehhh... it's close. I believe it was really when she began preparations for befriending the Alukite. (laughs) Everything up to then was still agreeable, for a certain view of agreeable. But it's here where the precipice really began to make its presence known.
​

Can you explain to me what the precipice means (to you)?

Character begets fate, that is my opinion. One can see it very often in tragedies, and sometimes in real life as well. If you ever make a plan which is contingent on someone's behavior changing, it rarely works out. A procrastinating student can hardly abruptly force oneself to study sixteen hours a day, an abuser can hardly change his ways, but more importantly, as has been mentioned many times, what Velvet Covers does is more important than why she does it. Her actions ripple out, it is written very clearly, 'kindness is the intent to help', 'malice is the intent to harm', but these still did harm and did cause harm.

(pause)

Let me gather my thoughts.
​

Ok.

What I mean is, at this precipice, like very many earlier precipices, its a turning point. It's a pitfall. Like the decision to take in the mirror Twilight, for example, if it was chosen, means that it's acting like an earlier cultist. I've confused you (laughter), let me try to explain again.

Right, so we know that Velvet Covers is not acting like a usual cultist. We know that, before the world was twisted, there used to be many hopefuls and aspirants who all climbed the steps to the House of the Sun, and that it was common, accepted even, for them to fight each other, which is evidenced by the Master. And taking in the mirror Twilight has Baldomare commenting that it's accepting, the act itself is accepting, means Velvet Covers is accepting her place as a cultist, it means becoming more similar to such a cultist, in the Before. Which I view as a bad thing.
​

But that's apocrypha, right? It's not canon?

(coughs) Close enough, but I understand your argument. But simply put, in the Before, before the world was twisted, isn't it that the arrival of Harmony changed things? But I digress again, I can offer a simple counterargument. Biedde taking another step, in the way of Before, that's taking Velvet Steppes. That's something I don't like.
​

Fair enough.

So back onto topic, the Grail Sacrament, done in this way, is unfavorable, and pardon the pun, unpalatable. I don't like it. But it's the precipice.
​

You said that there's earlier precipices?

Each act of falling further into the behavior of a Before cultist is understandable on its own, but two things - one, it locks out other options, it makes it easier for Velvet Covers to fall further, we've had this lampshaded with looking at the Glory versus thinking about her family, and two, it viewed from afar, it's still a descent. But this descent is still not enough, a precipice means that it's an option that, if it goes through, there's really no coming back from. Gravity asserts itself, and one falls far, far down.
​

I think I understand.

Good, let's continue. The reasons why I don't think it's with Princess Cadenza, it's because it's still understandable. But both options to do with the Lores means indulging further into the Lores, which is in itself not really a bad thing. But the only option that is 'safe' is talking about the family, about her daughter, which I find very meaningful.

But using a prisoner that one has no connection with, that's unfavorable.
​

So if the target was her father...?

No, no, don't get me wrong. If she'd gone after her father, that would be bad as well. But the point is her behavior, you understand. She transitions from the reactor to the provoker, from the one reacting to into the one that others react to. That's from a place of power, using a prisoner or a minion is all from a place of power, it means that she cares more about the power than the target and her behavior. The only acceptable dish is Windy Flakes.

It is symbolic, it's about using someone who uses the old ways to cheat around the Alukite's demands. It means refusing to follow completely in the old ways, not just through this cheat but also through cleaning up the remains of the inner circle. Take for example the burning of evidence, it's symbolic that she still cares about the mortal world, that she wishes to do away, to clear her ties to her old mistakes. But it fails. Ash remains, the consequences remains, the guilt. But more importantly, the behavior of removing this evidence damns her slightly, she has something to hide. But it's not a precipice.
​

So the Moth Sacrament?

Moth... it's a mask. It's the shedding of a mask. That brings up a point I had forgotten. Grail is about consuming something, consuming something makes it a part of you. You sacrifice something to benefit yourself, you care more about yourself than that sacrifice. Canterlot burning down can still be blamed on Queen Chrysalis, but using someone one has no connections to brings a, pardon the pun again, a bad taste to my mouth. If you consume an evil, like Windy Flakes, the interpretation can still be argued that it was a good action to consume evil. And the Moth Sacrament, that's about learning to shed a part of yourself, but it's also a transformation.

If the mask dies, Velvet Covers lives on; if Velvet Covers dies, the mask lives on. So one part of herself can take on all the evil, and the other can live on. Or maybe that's just my own justifications (laughs). But consuming a stranger is like a hero making unnecessary sacrifices, or causing collateral damage when the hero does not need to. This Means is not necessary to achieve its End. It's bad, it's a clear sign of evil.

Taking a leaf out of Tolkien, it's giving in to fear and despair. The fear of worms and the fear of Princess Celestia. It's Sarupony looking into the Palantir, it's Denethor facing away. It becomes the story of Gollum instead of the story of Frodo - her story stops being a story where good, more often than not, resists and arises out of evil, but instead becomes a story where good succumbs to evil until the end, most likely via the Sun, purification and archetype of creation and destruction, the primal fire, Lifebringer.

Simply put, doing the Grail Sacrament using this method transitions Velvet Covers from victim to anti-hero. It's a step too far, it's a razor-sharp line that, once she crosses, slices a scar into her soul, making her a myth, a legend; a tragedy. A warning and a fairytale. She crosses the event horizon, gravity asserts itself, fate asserts itself; the story of an anti-hero comes crashing down on her with all the power of an avalanche. She becomes a tragedy instead.

And like a tragedy, until I read it, I didn't think it would happen.
​

You didn't think it would happen?

(exhales loudly) It's like reading Orpheus and Eurydice, one can have read it happen before, or even peer into the future and hope that it's a future, or peer into the past and hope that it's a past, lying to yourself, basically (laughs). But it's the same way I can still yell at the screen during the Battle of the Heroes, or cry at Patroclus' passing. It only happens when I read the words. Until then, like a closed box, it doesn't happen.
​

So what did you expect?

Honestly? (laughs) I expected Windy Flakes. ​

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[Wise Wolf]

Well, just caught up to this masterpiece. Pretty delightful. Thanks for all the words and feels @OurLadyOfWires! My favorite moment was the chapter where Selene grows up. The wistful, doomed air of the parents as they wake up their beloved daughter was perfect.

Overall, I was really pleased by the direction of the thread. Lots of reasonable threading of tough decisions, given a clear priority of family over cult/worms. I think the only time I was horrified was when you let a city burn rather than lose a character that had screen time. And... that decision is the whole reason we have a Celestia doom-clock (since it gave us a -1 on the Sunbreaker roll) and led directly to one of our Stains (Silky). (Breaking the Tribal gate was, in retrospect, probably equally awful if not worse, but we didn't know what letting the Wolf in *meant* then.)

Looking forward to joining you all for the end of the quest and the final approach to Glory!

 

[Rafuki22]

Uhhhh... On the Precipice; a Retrospective.

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I disagree with the Grail Sacrament being a precipice, althought not it being a step too far, but i disagree with it turning Velvet into an Anti-Hero, you can't turn into something you alredy are.

But what kind of Anti-Hero are we talking about? The modern one or the clasical one?

 

[Pittauro]

Well, just caught up to this masterpiece. Pretty delightful. Thanks for all the words and feels @OurLadyOfWires! My favorite moment was the chapter where Selene grows up. The wistful, doomed air of the parents as they wake up their beloved daughter was perfect.

Overall, I was really pleased by the direction of the thread. Lots of reasonable threading of tough decisions, given a clear priority of family over cult/worms. I think the only time I was horrified was when you let a city burn rather than lose a character that had screen time. And... that decision is the whole reason we have a Celestia doom-clock (since it gave us a -1 on the Sunbreaker roll) and led directly to one of our Stains (Silky). (Breaking the Tribal gate was, in retrospect, probably equally awful if not worse, but we didn't know what letting the Wolf in *meant* then.)

Looking forward to joining you all for the end of the quest and the final approach to Glory!

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Breaking the Tribal Door is probably the most "evil" action we ever took, all things considered.

To avoid killing two people, we indirectly doomed many more.

as for the city... I think the idea was that if we had Shining die, or Cadance die, the consequences on Cadance and/or Celestia would have been even worse.

Coldly speaking, "named" characters (or close friends) have a stronger effect. If Celestia went mad on seeing the city burn... what's to say she wouldn't have gone WORSE if she'd seen her adoptive niece and the only other alicorn beside her and Luna die?

Choosing Shining might have admittedly given us a chance to get closer to Cadance even faster, but I think we feared her "love" dimming and basically Harmony weakening.

Other regrets are mentioning Twilight to the Master only as a possible tool to get closer to the Princess, and also not breaking her faith in Celestia when we had the chance, stopping her from doing her reckless visit leading to imprisonment.

Oh, and not picking Neighnia on the nat100 SH turn, as well as studying that lantern 6 book instead of keeping it for Baldomare...


...in short ,we made a LOT of bad decisions. though in all fairness many of those only revealed themselves as wrong only in hindsight... or at least without hindsight there WAS an argument for them.

---

In any case, oh welcome you Wise Wolf. just remember that the OTHER Wolf is not wise at all! Don't fall for his temptations! Lawrence would be sad!

 

[DelightedOne]

and led directly to one of our Stains (Silky)

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Softy(not Silky, Silky is fine and noticed by Harmony) wasn't a Stain... at least not yet. That only happens if we make the seventh Regrettable Action.

And if that didn't happen we would need to choose between Selene or Silky and that would be uncomfortable to say the least, especially because we didn't end up losing Selene so if that was chosen Velvet would have killed Luna for nothing.

 

[Sveta08]

On the Precipice; a Retrospective. A sort of negaverse? Iunno.

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Hmmh.

I am no stranger to writing odd apocrypha. It's fun, it's challenging, and it stretches the way you interact with a story in a way that's exciting. Stretching the conventional bounds is precisely why I liked this story enough to join in the discussion around it. The color, the invisible text, the spoilers, the apocrypha... Very fun stuff.
That said, I don't know what this is.

I cannot say in good faith it is apocrypha. Nor can I say it is mere rambling. There is too much in it that comes from the story for it to be an aside. There is too much that comes from without the story for it to be internal. It looks and feels much more as a interview with a reporter pitching softballs. It simply feels...
Eghh.



As for the substance of the message, to that, I have too many thing to say. Short epitaphs, or long ramblings. But to distill it all into a short and easily digestible way...

Mourn when the ink has dried.

 

[Wise Wolf]

Softy(not Silky, Silky is fine and noticed by Harmony) wasn't a Stain... at least not yet. That only happens if we make the seventh Regrettable Action.

And if that didn't happen we would need to choose between Selene or Silky and that would be uncomfortable to say the least, especially because we didn't end up losing Selene so if that was chosen Velvet would have killed Luna for nothing.

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Er, yes, I did mean Softy. Bestest accidental Wolf-cultist in the world. I hadn't realized we didn't get a stain when we saved her with the Wolf.

But if we hadn't picked to let Canterlot burn, Soft's family would not have died, preempting the entire reason she jumped.

 

[Shaper47]

But if we hadn't picked to let Canterlot burn, Soft's family would not have died, preempting the entire reason she jumped.

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We had a bunch of guaranteed options we could picked which also would have prevented Soft from falling.

 

[AuthorTransient]

I tried to make it more within the story, but I fucked it, then I gave up on separating it. Anyway, I am fine with this. Let's just see what happens.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

Overall, I was really pleased by the direction of the thread. Lots of reasonable threading of tough decisions, given a clear priority of family over cult/worms. I think the only time I was horrified was when you let a city burn rather than lose a character that had screen time.

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Well we were voting from the perspective of the Changeling Queen, and so I chose what was best for the hive, which is eating those tasty tasty ponies and shoring up those larders for making more hives.

We had a bunch of guaranteed options we could picked which also would have prevented Soft from falling.

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Yeah, we could have had Silky burn herself to death and get revived instead, or had Velvet burn Luna to death before her awakening so that only Selene remained. The price to be paid with that vote was always going to be a part of one of Velvet's daughters, prior votes would not have changed that.

Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, I guess voting to not adopt Soft would have dodged things by not having her be a daughter.

 

[Wise Wolf]

Well we were voting from the perspective of the Changeling Queen, and so I chose what was best for the hive, which is eating those tasty tasty ponies and shoring up those larders for making more hives.



Yeah, we could have had Silky burn herself to death and get revived instead, or had Velvet burn Luna to death before her awakening so that only Selene remained. The price to be paid with that vote was always going to be a part of one of Velvet's daughters, prior votes would not have changed that.

Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, I guess voting to not adopt Soft would have dodged things by not having her be a daughter.

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What vote are you talking about? I just went back and looked through all the updates from that turn, and I don't see a vote like that. And I don't really understand how Soft not losing her family would not have preempted that.

 

[DelightedOne]

What vote are you talking about? I just went back and looked through all the updates from that turn, and I don't see a vote like that. And I don't really understand how Soft not losing her family would not have preempted that.

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It wasn't treadmarked, it was this vote:

[] "Fire's Final Function" [THIS IS A REGRETTABLE ACTION]
"Silky Stream did the one thing you always told her not to. She played with matches. And the conflagration scarred her body in a way that, shockingly, almost mirrors your own.
You will never tell anyone that, in truth, she actually died that day. You will never tell anyone that when you found her, she was already dead, until the words you spoke pushed the smoke out of her lungs and sparked life back into her body…
Because in the darkest corners of your thoughts, you really know that was the day she was actually born.
Like Mother like daughter, you suppose. And she looks forward to meeting her six younger brothers." [THIS IS A REGRETTABLE ACTION]

[] "And she was strangled in her cradle" [THIS IS A REGRETTABLE ACTION]
"You love Selene too much. If you are ever to be found guilty of anything, it will be that you love too deeply. In fact, you love her so much that you always dreaded that she might disappear, should Princess Luna ever return.
And one day, that fear overcame you.
In the perfect center of the Dreamlands, Luna was asleep behind a Door bearing her mark. The Door trusted you, and it allowed you in like a welcome guest.
That Door does not trust you anymore. Not after what you did. But you did it for Selene. You did it for your daughter. That is what you will tell yourself until the day you die.
And even after Selene's education is complete, and she reaches the power that is her birthright, she will remain Selene. Even if the unclean flames you used to consume Luna grow to consume her as well, she will remain Selene. In fact, she might even love you all the more for what you did.
She will always be your daughter, and you will always be her Mother. By the black fire you both share, if not by blood." [THIS IS A REGRETTABLE ACTION]

[] "The dead will no longer be dead" [THIS IS A REGREATTABLE ACTION]
"You tried your best. Ponpon tried her best. Soft Sweeps tried her best. But in the end, it was not enough.
Soft Sweeps succumbed to the misery that weighed her down. No one could have ever been strong enough to survive what she was going through, so it is only natural that she failed. But still, call her brave or call her weak, the fact remains that she went to join her family.
Except that you loved her too much to let her do that.
You swore Ponpon to secrecy, and no one else knows why this is a problem. But the fact remains that Soft Sweeps is back. Or perhaps that she never left.
And most importantly, she loves you. She loves you like a cub loves her Mother." [THIS IS A REGRETTABLE ACTION]

Long story short, the QM had an idea and an offer to the players to restart the Quest after some... issues. The shape of the Seventh Stain.

One daughter for another.

 

[Limabot]

On a related note, I do kind of wonder what would have happened if we somehow chose Silk Stream to be Wolf-tainted rather than Soft Sweeps. I assume it would have disrupted the DoA's befriending to some extent, but I am curious if the Wolf in her could find a way to spread beyond its host in the same way that Softy's Wolf was able to hijack the Therapy group.

 

[Shaper47]

Actually, now that I think about it, I guess voting to not adopt Soft would have dodged things by not having her be a daughter.

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What vote are you talking about? I just went back and looked through all the updates from that turn, and I don't see a vote like that. And I don't really understand how Soft not losing her family would not have preempted that.

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By teaching Soft about a lore we could have used that to ensure she would not suicidal in the future. The options were winter, Edge or Winter and Edge.

Instead we picked the trust Harmony option instead of the guaranteed success of the lores. Thus she killed herself.

 

[Wise Wolf]

By teaching Soft about a lore we could have used that to ensure she would not suicidal in the future. The options were winter, Edge or Winter and Edge.

Instead we picked the trust Harmony option instead of the guaranteed success of the lores. Thus she killed herself.

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Eh. Seems like there would have been some other 'implement the 7th stain' option to revive Softy from some other threat. The point apparently was to have to choose.

 

[DelightedOne]

Eh. Seems like there would have been some other 'implement the 7th stain' option to revive Softy from some other threat. The point apparently was to have to choose.

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Oh, if you don't know it already Shaper is the number 1 Harmony hater and Wolf follower in this and the first thread.

So I recommend you take anything he says related to Harmony with a healthy dose of cynism.

 

[Wise Wolf]

Oh, if you don't know it already Shaper is the number 1 Harmony hater and Wolf follower in this and the first thread.

So I recommend you take anything he says related to Harmony with a healthy dose of cynism.

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If only he would turn away from the bifurcated wolf, and and turn to the Goddess of Grain and Apples instead...

 

[Rafuki22]

Instead we picked the trust Harmony option instead of the guaranteed success of the lores. Thus she killed herself.

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That's not what happened and you know it.

And even the QM already told you to stop with this.

 

[Shaper47]

Options were:

1) Exile (this option would have had her leave and was unavailable.)

2) Winter - take away her tears, make her main lore winter, gaurantee to deal with her sorrow

3) Edge - turn her into mini Lionsmith, makes her hate Velvet and thus not herself, gaurantee to deal with her sorrow

4) Apostate - winter and Edge minion, option that has Velvet love Soft the highest, gaurantee to deal with her sorrow

5) Daughter - no lores, the most Harmony like and trust option, has Velvet love Soft as much as Apostate, NO GAURANTEE TO DEAL WITH SOFT'S SORROW

Picking the Daughter option was explicitly the least safe option for Soft that could have her killing herself later.

Now technically we could have later picked to not have the Daughter option fail but we didn't. So retroactively the Daughter/Harmony option lead to her death.

 

[DelightedOne]

2) Winter - take away her tears, make her main lore winter, gaurantee to deal with her sorrow

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Also drained her of everything else and had Baldomare herself think it was a bad idea.

You watch as Baldomare's expression turns into a scowl. But in that scowl you also see something else, something deeper.

Because of course, you can clearly tell that the mare disapproves of what you are doing.

But you can also tell that, deep down, she knows that she will be a hypocrite if she tries to stop you.

Click to shrink...

I repeat: Baldomare herself thought we shouldn't do it.

3) Edge - turn her into mini Lionsmith, makes her hate Velvet and thus not herself, gaurantee to deal with her sorrow

Click to shrink...

Possible bullet, that is just not worth it.

Crow's beak, I can't tell if you just dodged a bullet or if you lost a great opportunity when you didn't…"

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4) Apostate - winter and Edge minion, option that has Velvet love Soft the highest, gaurantee to deal with her sorrow

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You forgot to say [This is a Regrettable action]. I believe that is reason enough to not have chosen it at the time.

Now technically we could have later picked to not have the Daughter option fail but we didn't. So retroactively the Daughter/Harmony option lead to her death.

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You know, I just love watching you do these mental gimnastics. Saying the later choice caused Soft's death, then going back to say that having her as a daughter was what killed her in the first place is just so funny.

It is like saying the future makes the past instead of the past making the future.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

Shaper's just sad we missed out on possibly having two Wolfed daughters.

But to a pony or Mansus being in-universe, his claim would appear to be absolutely correct. It's only from our position beyond all such things that we know the terrible truth - that there was nothing we could have done to protect all of Velvet's daughters from a partial death that day.