August 1920
Imperator Pax
Talon Master
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2019
- Messages
- 5,906
- Likes received
- 78,894
August 1920
Officially, with the manifold reforms of the constitutional ratification Allen had found his rank to be commanding general... what ... what in twenty years would become General of the Armies. It was a legal distinction with every intention that it was to be an administrative post, and aimed at preparing and training the army rather than actually commanding forces afield.
... but it was a position that had been one of coordination, and education... one not predicated one that could not have predicted at the time of writing the break down of central authority in north china. "What do we want to do?" He looked at the map, and the question was asked again, "What do we want to do Al?"
He idly tapped eastern Siberia... officially as his rank CG Iseburo was still the IG... unofficially was governor... Viceroy might have been accurate... that was what Percy had made the crack on about a few days ago... and he wasn't necessarily wrong... though he doubted the comparison was popular. "We're gonna push on with trying to get them to adopt 8mm Mauser." Kirghiz wasn't subject to the arms embargo, so they could get that stuff surplused cheap.
They'd push to get rid of the Russian cartridge ... mostly because there was no tooling or industry to make it in the numbers that anyone would need especially if a fight came. The 8mm was the standard cartridge across China even if the south was largely reliant on the older round nose pattern still... the Qing hadn't been able to complete the transition, and the pattern 88s were still arguably the most common rifle in the country... but that really underscored what needed to be done. If Siberia, and Central Asia were to be able to resist any potential Bolshevik advance something was going to have to give.
Logistically that would mean that the rifle caliber would have to change. Britain would have probably preferred if the change over 'if it must' be done to their dwarf but that wasn't likely. "Well the good news on that," Griswold remarked "is the tooling is set. Machine guns shouldn't be an issue, we've already made simplifications and mass production is under way." He meant Heavy Machine Guns those in tripod mount i.e. The colts not the Lewis guns. "It'd be nice if Iseburo would buy an order as well."
"Tch, and get in a fight with the Kwantung Army." Whose leadership had not appreciated the Siberian posting not being folded in... even though Yamagata's heir would have likely ended up in charge of it all... instead the Manchurian concession was a separate army and civilian apparatus... and it didn't take a genius to recognize that the two commands would be vying for funding in a post war budget... and since Iseburo's command was sitting on oil at least on that one island and he had the industry connections... well there was going to be a lot of teeth gnashing from the army, and probably the navy. "Don't get me wrong, if the reds come over," Dawes drawled, "I'd want us all with the same model of rifle, machine gun and cannons, but we should probably accept there will be a fight but one where we don't have interchangeable weapons."
It was a vain hope, there was no denying that... Allen wasn't even sure that if the Brits agreed to replace 303 with 30'06 that it would have justified adopting it to replace the Mauser. They were doing their own rifle experiments, with aims towards a universal short rifle... but twenty inches even with IMR was still stout for smaller men and they had to make considerations.
Dawes's comment further accentuated that officially, that he was formally the second most senior officer in the army commanding the artillery. Regardless of progressing talk, of air forces, gendarmes or national guard the artillery was of the combat arms effectively senior given the effective time in grade especially. "Zhang intends to start a full shift over to a domestic production moving from the 88 to the 98."
The troubles in Manchuria well if the Ponytail hadn't gone into retirement it was likely Zhang Xun would have probably pursued a similar course of modernization, and probably only the war in Europe had prevented Yuan Shikai from trying to modernize the Beiyang army from pushing forward with such.
Zhang Tsolin's hold on Manchuria meant he had funding for that. There was the question of whether or not he had the funding available to sustain a modernization program that would become self sustaining... "Do you think he can do it?"
"He's hiring russians, he has a mission in Austria," Dawes picked up his mug and blew on the steaming coffee, "We know he understands the terms of the peace treaty, and even if that wasn't a factor we know he planned to buy surplus. Zhang is surprisingly adamant about not likely the Bolsheviks, and I can't speak to ... the man's personal feelings but I am a little worried where he sits on the Qing."
Zhang Xun, and Zhang Tsolin were not related. They shared a surname but that didn't mean much there were a million lees after all. On the other hand Zhang Tsolin was adamant about providing gifts to the former emperor... and by itself that was nothing... but with thirty thousand manchurian gendarmes in Peking... well it was hard not to fret about the similarities that they were looking at.
"Something we'll have to keep on top of."
--
Only the most optimistic of the Cadre had grand visions of what the first elections would yield in terms of preparation... but the recent fightin in Peking's vicinity ... well that wasn't great for civic confidence. Even allowing for the greater infrastructure compared to out west only part of the fory odd million of the population were actually eligible for the Franchise... and estimates on how many of them would turn out to vote was largely disappointing.
In a way they were lucky that Duan had called for parliamentary elections when he had. It had allowed them a trial run that went through Shansi, Shensi, Gansu, Xinjiang, the lake, and Lhasa. All the same one of the self evident things going into the first elections would be that the lower house would have to approve efforts to better organize the electorate, but that would go hand in hand with tax reform and infrastructure expenditures. Schools, especially, compulsory education.
It wasn't the only election they had to worry about either... the states would going to the polls soon. That Wood hadn't clinched the nomination was unfortunate. Harding's rhetoric... was at best nonsense and worse ignorant of the world beyond the shore and ignorance was dangerous.
"Here are the financials," Waite remarked, "And the census is under way, we will tabulate using the counting machines," The machines that they had bought, brought over in the expectation of conducting a China wide census for the Qing, which had fallen through so long ago. "Its telling us mostly what we expected though."
The overwhelming majority of China's population was rural... and the lack of modern statistics, and regular efforts to keep the rolls updated meant guess work... but more than that rural life meant endemic unemployment, and also commonly under employment. Things that had been identified years ago, but with a comprehensive census would be able to meaningfully plan and address with the addition of government powers... if given time to work.
The financial commission had an overlap with the banking one, but it was a study group. It was looking both local efforts to reform, like what Zhang Tsolin had instituted with a silver currency of his own issue, and also ... the mess that was going on with abroad. As China had not needed to mobilize, as there had not been a disjunction of any sort of national market the matter of inflation and the value of the common house hold goods had remained relatively stable as well. Domestic production of manufactured goods had increased to meet demand for goods which ordinarily would have been brought in from Europe, and later America as American production had been devoured by the European war effort. "Is the Ed Commission in there somewhere?"
"Nah, I ain't seen it yet." Waite replied.
Compulsorily education in such a way that it could be thought of beginning had begun with the kindergartens and school for employees of the firm. If Augustus had been born in 1910 he'd have still been too young to be in those first combined classes for workers children. The expansion of 1914, then for the war, meant a need to expand workers housing and other supplemental, and they would still have to do that, and new schools had been planned... which was probably why the education commission was late.
--
Notes: The use of Commanding General is of course an American-ism its a 19th century facet this rank would have been abolished by the US in fact it was replaced in 1903 by Army Chief of Staff as position and subordinate in both instances to the secretary of war. This also goes however to the difference in the systems that are developing politically.
At this point Xian doesn't have a Secretary of War, and strictly speaking Xian's civilian positions are rather frequently filled with military officers or those with military experience. This is something previously alluded on in the Pre Xian period with Reinsch's complaining about militarism (this is something he complained about in his academic writing before he was posted to China, it was something he complained about with Japan, and China both regarding leadership, and he complained about it in this US system with regards to the secretary of War basically ignoring him). This is kind of a foreshadowed but Reinsch and some other politicians and political appointees pre ww1 were often inclined to complain 'oh the militarists or militarism is making my job harder', his complaints to SoW, and the Phillipines were more complicated than that, and also involved the fact that Reinsch was a political appointee and Lansing (and Bryan before him) had other things on the agenda.
But here with those complaints there is an extent leadership, and to be fair its very much a continuation of an old boy's club.
As to the gun thing this plays into WW2 where E.Siberia, like Manchukuo and Kirghiz and China in general are all using 8mm Mauser and typically some mauser action for their rifle. (88 Commission rifles or domestic productions are still common) Japan never transitions fully from their last Meiji era rifle, Japan is in the process of modernizing its 6.5 cartridge at present, but the 7.7 is complementary to the 6.5 and its basically a rimless 303 British. The 'Arisaka' are basically improved Mauser action rifles. As a result there end with Imperial Japan doing special procurement of small batches of different things but never adopting them en masse. (Like with the Carcano)
Caliber is going to be important for pushing cold war doctrine, adoption of a semi / select fire rifles, artillery and so forth. Those will be discussed touched on as we move further into the interwar years, because most of those conversations took place in the thirties academically. Now I say academically because while they had been touched tentatively before ww1 Ordinance branches got in the way, and also by the late thirties war is around the corner and a lot of small arms modernization didn't get funded, and were put off by most major combatant nations.
Officially, with the manifold reforms of the constitutional ratification Allen had found his rank to be commanding general... what ... what in twenty years would become General of the Armies. It was a legal distinction with every intention that it was to be an administrative post, and aimed at preparing and training the army rather than actually commanding forces afield.
... but it was a position that had been one of coordination, and education... one not predicated one that could not have predicted at the time of writing the break down of central authority in north china. "What do we want to do?" He looked at the map, and the question was asked again, "What do we want to do Al?"
He idly tapped eastern Siberia... officially as his rank CG Iseburo was still the IG... unofficially was governor... Viceroy might have been accurate... that was what Percy had made the crack on about a few days ago... and he wasn't necessarily wrong... though he doubted the comparison was popular. "We're gonna push on with trying to get them to adopt 8mm Mauser." Kirghiz wasn't subject to the arms embargo, so they could get that stuff surplused cheap.
They'd push to get rid of the Russian cartridge ... mostly because there was no tooling or industry to make it in the numbers that anyone would need especially if a fight came. The 8mm was the standard cartridge across China even if the south was largely reliant on the older round nose pattern still... the Qing hadn't been able to complete the transition, and the pattern 88s were still arguably the most common rifle in the country... but that really underscored what needed to be done. If Siberia, and Central Asia were to be able to resist any potential Bolshevik advance something was going to have to give.
Logistically that would mean that the rifle caliber would have to change. Britain would have probably preferred if the change over 'if it must' be done to their dwarf but that wasn't likely. "Well the good news on that," Griswold remarked "is the tooling is set. Machine guns shouldn't be an issue, we've already made simplifications and mass production is under way." He meant Heavy Machine Guns those in tripod mount i.e. The colts not the Lewis guns. "It'd be nice if Iseburo would buy an order as well."
"Tch, and get in a fight with the Kwantung Army." Whose leadership had not appreciated the Siberian posting not being folded in... even though Yamagata's heir would have likely ended up in charge of it all... instead the Manchurian concession was a separate army and civilian apparatus... and it didn't take a genius to recognize that the two commands would be vying for funding in a post war budget... and since Iseburo's command was sitting on oil at least on that one island and he had the industry connections... well there was going to be a lot of teeth gnashing from the army, and probably the navy. "Don't get me wrong, if the reds come over," Dawes drawled, "I'd want us all with the same model of rifle, machine gun and cannons, but we should probably accept there will be a fight but one where we don't have interchangeable weapons."
It was a vain hope, there was no denying that... Allen wasn't even sure that if the Brits agreed to replace 303 with 30'06 that it would have justified adopting it to replace the Mauser. They were doing their own rifle experiments, with aims towards a universal short rifle... but twenty inches even with IMR was still stout for smaller men and they had to make considerations.
Dawes's comment further accentuated that officially, that he was formally the second most senior officer in the army commanding the artillery. Regardless of progressing talk, of air forces, gendarmes or national guard the artillery was of the combat arms effectively senior given the effective time in grade especially. "Zhang intends to start a full shift over to a domestic production moving from the 88 to the 98."
The troubles in Manchuria well if the Ponytail hadn't gone into retirement it was likely Zhang Xun would have probably pursued a similar course of modernization, and probably only the war in Europe had prevented Yuan Shikai from trying to modernize the Beiyang army from pushing forward with such.
Zhang Tsolin's hold on Manchuria meant he had funding for that. There was the question of whether or not he had the funding available to sustain a modernization program that would become self sustaining... "Do you think he can do it?"
"He's hiring russians, he has a mission in Austria," Dawes picked up his mug and blew on the steaming coffee, "We know he understands the terms of the peace treaty, and even if that wasn't a factor we know he planned to buy surplus. Zhang is surprisingly adamant about not likely the Bolsheviks, and I can't speak to ... the man's personal feelings but I am a little worried where he sits on the Qing."
Zhang Xun, and Zhang Tsolin were not related. They shared a surname but that didn't mean much there were a million lees after all. On the other hand Zhang Tsolin was adamant about providing gifts to the former emperor... and by itself that was nothing... but with thirty thousand manchurian gendarmes in Peking... well it was hard not to fret about the similarities that they were looking at.
"Something we'll have to keep on top of."
--
Only the most optimistic of the Cadre had grand visions of what the first elections would yield in terms of preparation... but the recent fightin in Peking's vicinity ... well that wasn't great for civic confidence. Even allowing for the greater infrastructure compared to out west only part of the fory odd million of the population were actually eligible for the Franchise... and estimates on how many of them would turn out to vote was largely disappointing.
In a way they were lucky that Duan had called for parliamentary elections when he had. It had allowed them a trial run that went through Shansi, Shensi, Gansu, Xinjiang, the lake, and Lhasa. All the same one of the self evident things going into the first elections would be that the lower house would have to approve efforts to better organize the electorate, but that would go hand in hand with tax reform and infrastructure expenditures. Schools, especially, compulsory education.
It wasn't the only election they had to worry about either... the states would going to the polls soon. That Wood hadn't clinched the nomination was unfortunate. Harding's rhetoric... was at best nonsense and worse ignorant of the world beyond the shore and ignorance was dangerous.
"Here are the financials," Waite remarked, "And the census is under way, we will tabulate using the counting machines," The machines that they had bought, brought over in the expectation of conducting a China wide census for the Qing, which had fallen through so long ago. "Its telling us mostly what we expected though."
The overwhelming majority of China's population was rural... and the lack of modern statistics, and regular efforts to keep the rolls updated meant guess work... but more than that rural life meant endemic unemployment, and also commonly under employment. Things that had been identified years ago, but with a comprehensive census would be able to meaningfully plan and address with the addition of government powers... if given time to work.
The financial commission had an overlap with the banking one, but it was a study group. It was looking both local efforts to reform, like what Zhang Tsolin had instituted with a silver currency of his own issue, and also ... the mess that was going on with abroad. As China had not needed to mobilize, as there had not been a disjunction of any sort of national market the matter of inflation and the value of the common house hold goods had remained relatively stable as well. Domestic production of manufactured goods had increased to meet demand for goods which ordinarily would have been brought in from Europe, and later America as American production had been devoured by the European war effort. "Is the Ed Commission in there somewhere?"
"Nah, I ain't seen it yet." Waite replied.
Compulsorily education in such a way that it could be thought of beginning had begun with the kindergartens and school for employees of the firm. If Augustus had been born in 1910 he'd have still been too young to be in those first combined classes for workers children. The expansion of 1914, then for the war, meant a need to expand workers housing and other supplemental, and they would still have to do that, and new schools had been planned... which was probably why the education commission was late.
--
Notes: The use of Commanding General is of course an American-ism its a 19th century facet this rank would have been abolished by the US in fact it was replaced in 1903 by Army Chief of Staff as position and subordinate in both instances to the secretary of war. This also goes however to the difference in the systems that are developing politically.
At this point Xian doesn't have a Secretary of War, and strictly speaking Xian's civilian positions are rather frequently filled with military officers or those with military experience. This is something previously alluded on in the Pre Xian period with Reinsch's complaining about militarism (this is something he complained about in his academic writing before he was posted to China, it was something he complained about with Japan, and China both regarding leadership, and he complained about it in this US system with regards to the secretary of War basically ignoring him). This is kind of a foreshadowed but Reinsch and some other politicians and political appointees pre ww1 were often inclined to complain 'oh the militarists or militarism is making my job harder', his complaints to SoW, and the Phillipines were more complicated than that, and also involved the fact that Reinsch was a political appointee and Lansing (and Bryan before him) had other things on the agenda.
But here with those complaints there is an extent leadership, and to be fair its very much a continuation of an old boy's club.
As to the gun thing this plays into WW2 where E.Siberia, like Manchukuo and Kirghiz and China in general are all using 8mm Mauser and typically some mauser action for their rifle. (88 Commission rifles or domestic productions are still common) Japan never transitions fully from their last Meiji era rifle, Japan is in the process of modernizing its 6.5 cartridge at present, but the 7.7 is complementary to the 6.5 and its basically a rimless 303 British. The 'Arisaka' are basically improved Mauser action rifles. As a result there end with Imperial Japan doing special procurement of small batches of different things but never adopting them en masse. (Like with the Carcano)
Caliber is going to be important for pushing cold war doctrine, adoption of a semi / select fire rifles, artillery and so forth. Those will be discussed touched on as we move further into the interwar years, because most of those conversations took place in the thirties academically. Now I say academically because while they had been touched tentatively before ww1 Ordinance branches got in the way, and also by the late thirties war is around the corner and a lot of small arms modernization didn't get funded, and were put off by most major combatant nations.