Pax's Alternate History Snippet repository.

[ATP]

This is what I would argue is more important than shell failure rate, that and doctrine. The Japanese had by this point had already adopted their version of Mahan and knew they they were going into a close range knife fight. The Beiyang fleet did not, they did not have that doctrine the Japanese were fully prepared to take serious losses by closing but were aiming for a knock out fight (this is descisive battle theory)

This goes to Japan is an island nation with the Navy as the primary military service the Royal Navy is providing advice, there are adivsors there are observerers aboard Japanese ships (just as there will be in the Russo Japanese war) and these are ships either constructed at British yards or with British engineers assisting while it is not perfect it allows a much more effective integration of modern doctrine as well as what the Japanese fleet of the day had in terms of real resources.

Click to shrink...

Fun thing - China doctrine/2 big battleships and many weak cruisers with few old torpedo boats/
was result of their defeat in 1884.against French - when french used their own torpedo boats to sunk
chineese cruisers - becouse they had only big,slow loading guns,unable to hit torpedo boats.
French cruisers come and finished what left.

So,China decide that 2 strong battleships with escort against torpedo boats would win the day.And they almost win - japaneese was unable to seriusly hurt them,but sunked almost all other ships.
If China cruisers lasted long,or at least most of battleships schells were not duds,it would be draw or even China victory.

Back to story - remember about spanish flu,it killed at least as many people in China as in Europe.

 

[Imperator Pax]

Fun thing - China doctrine/2 big battleships and many weak cruisers with few old torpedo boats/
was result of their defeat in 1884.against French - when french used their own torpedo boats to sunk
chineese cruisers - becouse they had only big,slow loading guns,unable to hit torpedo boats.
French cruisers come and finished what left.

So,China decide that 2 strong battleships with escort against torpedo boats would win the day.And they almost win - japaneese was unable to seriusly hurt them,but sunked almost all other ships.
If China cruisers lasted long,or at least most of battleships schells were not duds,it would be draw or even China victory.

Back to story - remember about spanish flu,it killed at least as many people in China as in Europe.

Click to shrink...

Yes, you're correct and I probably should have mentioned that the 1917 flu season (before the 'start' of the 'spanish flu') was itself fairly extreme compared to. The outbreak of the influenza epidemic was almost certainly a byproduct of both increased travel and wartime trade and also weakened immune systems from the disruptions in food supply/price inflation caused by the war. this would be especially true in major port cities, and unlike preceeding epidemics this is really the golden age of rail travel not only is their ship borne illness spreading in weeks from say mainland france to Britain to the US, and back forth across those transatlantic routes there is also the migration of carriers overland via rail. [and thats without even touching on origin theories, or theories that suggest that the mutation in fluenza began either at or near the beginning of the war]

 

[Imperator Pax]

9 August 1917
It was the following Monday as a portion of the cadre came in to pick over the mess that that attempted Manchu restoration had continued to make a mess of things. The working comittees were still parsing things out. Powell was absent, but at least he had the excuse that he was on site in the west with crews. Bill had come in from one of his test, drill, sites. That meant that there were just shy of sixty men in the room... and it was indicative of how things had changed.

A decade ago they would have looked different. There would have been more sack cloth suits, but that was just what the pictures of the original cadre would be remembered as. The details of it would be forever lost to history.

A hundred men had been a gathering. Not everyone had been close at the time of the original gathering, but most everyone had had friends or of the same broader circle, recommendations by a backing party. It wasn't quite all inter relations, but between them the graduates from the academy, it was all who one had known. A hundred men, a stock each. That had been put up not too long after the Moroccan crisis... which seemed like a century ago. It certainly seemed longer than it was, but maybe that was just the view back of reading the papers in Korea.

A life time ago.

... just as when the Qing had fallen the start had already seemed like a lifetime to see the ancient regime just come apart at the seems.. and for what really? Not a serious military threat like the Taiping in any event... just exhaustion?

Then just two years later fresh on the heels of the mess with Bai Lang, the war in Europe. The great change over. Suddenly the cadre was no longer a hundred share holders, but a board of a hundred of experts and share holders. Three years since that shake up.

Bert coughed slightly, and then when that didn't get their attention Waite threw a booted foot against the lectern to get everyone to pipe down. "Approximately this time last year the Federal Reserve of the United States began to recommend that it was of imprudent financial sense to extend further credit to the entente." Despite the fact that the bank had been perhaps his defining act of his first term it was advice that Wilson might have ignored hence because he just didn't like bankers recommending policy and thankfully all the set backs that occurred for the European war this year had come after the Germans had decided to toss their bomb onto the front lawn of the States.

It was American loans, private loans, and now government loans to England that funded the war. A war that was very hard to say was going anything other than poorly with the recent set backs. The French and Russian paralysis, British trouble at home... and the Italians having repeatedly thought to run themselves into a wall repeatedly enough that despite entering late were themselves facing mutinies on the front.

Their lot was anything but dispirited. The science, the math had been done, was quite clear whatever the resistance the Germans might present if the war lasted to nineteen nineteen the United States would have such a manpower advantage it would carry. It was the numbers. The Germans had been fighting by and large, perhaps smuggling aside, since 1914, but they didn't have the horses to sustain an offensive, and the fact they'd given ground to avoid encirclement suggested its own things... and more. For rational scientific men who could consider the numbers there was a great confidence that the mobilization that was underway would end the war.

It was just as well Powell wasn't here, Bertie was banging the industrial planning drum quite enough today... "To that end I think perhaps 1920 or the first year of the decade that follows," 1921, "Should be the time frame to which embark on a grand new venture of planned and methodical expansion."

There was some shuffling from Percy tended to refer to as a handful of the 'backbenchers' who started passing around documents down the seating aisles of the chamber.

"Now what has been laid out in these proposals are a series of industrial goals, service goals, our colleagues who aren't here are tending to projects that were not originally planned." Bert continued, "Because who, how could we have planned a war within civilization at least one on this scale. It has changed the make up of this very body twice in as many years. We are looking at a third such shift now ahead of us."

There was a shuffling. Powell's abscence was conspicuous, and Allen cleared his throat gruffly to pull the attention towards him. " "We have an office in switzerland. With the intention that that office that branch of this tree will grow." there was a motion to open a new office or move it to Luzanne from Geneva for space reasons, but that was for the office to ascertain its own needs. "This war cannot go on forever." He thought of planes, and cars, and rested his hands on the desk he frequently used whenever there were enough of them present to warrant this theater like room, "and we will need men of learning beyond those whom we have retained. Let us be clear we have known for some time that England and France have made it their stated goal to punish the powers opposing them, and whatever our highminded president from Virginia might think the French are nothing if not usurious. There will be penalties and there will be men in need of jobs. Jobs that will be here, as well as elsewhere, because it is not just in Switzerland we need to fill. There is a railway, mining, and farming ventures in middle america which we have discussed. The United States has a voracious demand for coffee among those, and that is a trade good we shall replace the germans at, is it not?" They might not be interested in competing in the fruit market, but their agreement regarding the railway construction had said nothing about things other than bananas. They didn't have a banana handy so an orange from California would have to do as an example.

--
Allen leaned back against the office wall. He'd changed from his desk facing the door, and leaned there. He was trying to focus on the colored numbers that he was sorting through in his head head. There was a rhythmic thump as a racquet ball pounced against the opposite wall of one of the offices. The sign of JP in deep thought. There was a knock on the door, and he wondered if the thumping had gotten on Sam's nerves. There was a shuffling as JP missed the ball and had to get up to get it..

Then a rap at his door.

"Allen."

He moved the papers off of his lap, and stepped over the box, to shuffle to the door and pull it open. "Sam."

John Paul was in tow, and antsy looking. "Telegram, from Peking. Duan has the votes."

"For war?" Sun Yat-sen down south in canton had been adamant against the war. That had been holding. Qirui's return to the premiership had not been unamiously panned after all. There were southern delegates happy to see Zhang Xun and his royalists shown off, but there were others who still weren't happy with the state of affairs. "When is the actual vote?"

"Tuesday."

He nodded. Qirui would sign the decree as soon as the parliament came through, because as soon as it was done that would mean money from England with almost complete certainty.... and potentially even arms paid for and supplied directly by Britain as well. "What does the new President think about the situation?" Feng seemed to be a sensible enough fella after all.

"I think he means to remind Duan, that he's may be the head of the association but that doesn't make him Yuan Shikai, and that Feng is not going to let himself get pushed around." Duan Qirui and Yuan Shikai had not always seen eye to eye... Yuan had not been thrilled with Duan's performance chasing Bai Lang (or trailing behind), but that had in itself been a bit unfair and it hadn't been Duan's fault he'd ended up catching pneumonia either. They had had their ups and downs, but ultimately Duan had succeeded to the leadership.

... which meant they were probably going to teeter close to a public squabble. If Yuan Shikai had been pater familias of the Beiyang clique, or clan patriarch or however you wanted to phrase and certainly it was closer to that than more western though... then that meant Duan and Feng were competing brothers, in a household with a lot of brothers.

... and well Yuan Shikai had had disagreements with his actual brother over plenty, and the heirs to his surviving materiel legacy were following suit.

John Paul nodded, "I think if Duan can demonstrate his ability to raise sufficient funds," And he conveyed the statement with a pointed look, "They're going to make a move south like he'd been talking about ... before all this." He grimaced shaking his head a little unsure how to broach. "They're going to make the move against the southern provinces they were talking about prior to this screw up with Zhang Xun." he reiterated

Griswold didn't disagree, "And it doesn't do a damned thing about the situation in Szechwan." which not might be entirely true because it might just might draw off some of Szechwan's forces into Hunan, but that was only a possibility. "But yeah its going to be on the finances I think, but on the other hand Duan has already started replacing the leadership."

... which if one were honest seemed as much about nepotism as anything else. Monday, this past, Duan had announced his intention to put his brother in law, and a cousin of some stripe into military commands along the Yangtze. Not that Wu wasn't necessary qualified for the job, and Fu, who was himself from Hunan could well have been a compromise candidate but then again he might not.

 

[ATP]

9 August 1917
It was the following Monday as a portion of the cadre came in to pick over the mess that that attempted Manchu restoration had continued to make a mess of things. The working comittees were still parsing things out. Powell was absent, but at least he had the excuse that he was on site in the west with crews. Bill had come in from one of his test, drill, sites. That meant that there were just shy of sixty men in the room... and it was indicative of how things had changed.

A decade ago they would have looked different. There would have been more sack cloth suits, but that was just what the pictures of the original cadre would be remembered as. The details of it would be forever lost to history.

A hundred men had been a gathering. Not everyone had been close at the time of the original gathering, but most everyone had had friends or of the same broader circle, recommendations by a backing party. It wasn't quite all inter relations, but between them the graduates from the academy, it was all who one had known. A hundred men, a stock each. That had been put up not too long after the Moroccan crisis... which seemed like a century ago. It certainly seemed longer than it was, but maybe that was just the view back of reading the papers in Korea.

A life time ago.

... just as when the Qing had fallen the start had already seemed like a lifetime to see the ancient regime just come apart at the seems.. and for what really? Not a serious military threat like the Taiping in any event... just exhaustion?

Then just two years later fresh on the heels of the mess with Bai Lang, the war in Europe. The great change over. Suddenly the cadre was no longer a hundred share holders, but a board of a hundred of experts and share holders. Three years since that shake up.

Bert coughed slightly, and then when that didn't get their attention Waite threw a booted foot against the lectern to get everyone to pipe down. "Approximately this time last year the Federal Reserve of the United States began to recommend that it was of imprudent financial sense to extend further credit to the entente." Despite the fact that the bank had been perhaps his defining act of his first term it was advice that Wilson might have ignored hence because he just didn't like bankers recommending policy and thankfully all the set backs that occurred for the European war this year had come after the Germans had decided to toss their bomb onto the front lawn of the States.

It was American loans, private loans, and now government loans to England that funded the war. A war that was very hard to say was going anything other than poorly with the recent set backs. The French and Russian paralysis, British trouble at home... and the Italians having repeatedly thought to run themselves into a wall repeatedly enough that despite entering late were themselves facing mutinies on the front.

Their lot was anything but dispirited. The science, the math had been done, was quite clear whatever the resistance the Germans might present if the war lasted to nineteen nineteen the United States would have such a manpower advantage it would carry. It was the numbers. The Germans had been fighting by and large, perhaps smuggling aside, since 1914, but they didn't have the horses to sustain an offensive, and the fact they'd given ground to avoid encirclement suggested its own things... and more. For rational scientific men who could consider the numbers there was a great confidence that the mobilization that was underway would end the war.

It was just as well Powell wasn't here, Bertie was banging the industrial planning drum quite enough today... "To that end I think perhaps 1920 or the first year of the decade that follows," 1921, "Should be the time frame to which embark on a grand new venture of planned and methodical expansion."

There was some shuffling from Percy tended to refer to as a handful of the 'backbenchers' who started passing around documents down the seating aisles of the chamber.

"Now what has been laid out in these proposals are a series of industrial goals, service goals, our colleagues who aren't here are tending to projects that were not originally planned." Bert continued, "Because who, how could we have planned a war within civilization at least one on this scale. It has changed the make up of this very body twice in as many years. We are looking at a third such shift now ahead of us."

There was a shuffling. Powell's abscence was conspicuous, and Allen cleared his throat gruffly to pull the attention towards him. " "We have an office in switzerland. With the intention that that office that branch of this tree will grow." there was a motion to open a new office or move it to Luzanne from Geneva for space reasons, but that was for the office to ascertain its own needs. "This war cannot go on forever." He thought of planes, and cars, and rested his hands on the desk he frequently used whenever there were enough of them present to warrant this theater like room, "and we will need men of learning beyond those whom we have retained. Let us be clear we have known for some time that England and France have made it their stated goal to punish the powers opposing them, and whatever our highminded president from Virginia might think the French are nothing if not usurious. There will be penalties and there will be men in need of jobs. Jobs that will be here, as well as elsewhere, because it is not just in Switzerland we need to fill. There is a railway, mining, and farming ventures in middle america which we have discussed. The United States has a voracious demand for coffee among those, and that is a trade good we shall replace the germans at, is it not?" They might not be interested in competing in the fruit market, but their agreement regarding the railway construction had said nothing about things other than bananas. They didn't have a banana handy so an orange from California would have to do as an example.

--
Allen leaned back against the office wall. He'd changed from his desk facing the door, and leaned there. He was trying to focus on the colored numbers that he was sorting through in his head head. There was a rhythmic thump as a racquet ball pounced against the opposite wall of one of the offices. The sign of JP in deep thought. There was a knock on the door, and he wondered if the thumping had gotten on Sam's nerves. There was a shuffling as JP missed the ball and had to get up to get it..

Then a rap at his door.

"Allen."

He moved the papers off of his lap, and stepped over the box, to shuffle to the door and pull it open. "Sam."

John Paul was in tow, and antsy looking. "Telegram, from Peking. Duan has the votes."

"For war?" Sun Yat-sen down south in canton had been adamant against the war. That had been holding. Qirui's return to the premiership had not been unamiously panned after all. There were southern delegates happy to see Zhang Xun and his royalists shown off, but there were others who still weren't happy with the state of affairs. "When is the actual vote?"

"Tuesday."

He nodded. Qirui would sign the decree as soon as the parliament came through, because as soon as it was done that would mean money from England with almost complete certainty.... and potentially even arms paid for and supplied directly by Britain as well. "What does the new President think about the situation?" Feng seemed to be a sensible enough fella after all.

"I think he means to remind Duan, that he's may be the head of the association but that doesn't make him Yuan Shikai, and that Feng is not going to let himself get pushed around." Duan Qirui and Yuan Shikai had not always seen eye to eye... Yuan had not been thrilled with Duan's performance chasing Bai Lang (or trailing behind), but that had in itself been a bit unfair and it hadn't been Duan's fault he'd ended up catching pneumonia either. They had had their ups and downs, but ultimately Duan had succeeded to the leadership.

... which meant they were probably going to teeter close to a public squabble. If Yuan Shikai had been pater familias of the Beiyang clique, or clan patriarch or however you wanted to phrase and certainly it was closer to that than more western though... then that meant Duan and Feng were competing brothers, in a household with a lot of brothers.

... and well Yuan Shikai had had disagreements with his actual brother over plenty, and the heirs to his surviving materiel legacy were following suit.

John Paul nodded, "I think if Duan can demonstrate his ability to raise sufficient funds," And he conveyed the statement with a pointed look, "They're going to make a move south like he'd been talking about ... before all this." He grimaced shaking his head a little unsure how to broach. "They're going to make the move against the southern provinces they were talking about prior to this screw up with Zhang Xun." he reiterated

Griswold didn't disagree, "And it doesn't do a damned thing about the situation in Szechwan." which not might be entirely true because it might just might draw off some of Szechwan's forces into Hunan, but that was only a possibility. "But yeah its going to be on the finances I think, but on the other hand Duan has already started replacing the leadership."

... which if one were honest seemed as much about nepotism as anything else. Monday, this past, Duan had announced his intention to put his brother in law, and a cousin of some stripe into military commands along the Yangtze. Not that Wu wasn't necessary qualified for the job, and Fu, who was himself from Hunan could well have been a compromise candidate but then again he might not.

Click to shrink...

Yes,they need to take as many engineers from Germany and A-H as they need for everything.And military,like those fighter factories which would be destroyed,is less important then cyvilian engineers,at least till WW2.

 

[Imperator Pax]

SVG Format map Modern provincial names [EDIT: Quote the message and it shows up, because of course it does: here is a wiki link to the image just in case https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/China_in_1911.svg]

You'll note that these borders (c.1912) do not reflect the later borders of 1928 never mind post 49. Inner and Outer Mongolia are a bit more complicated (to say the least) but this actually reflects Zhili province's administration of the city Zhengzhou.

 

[ATP]

Yes, you're correct and I probably should have mentioned that the 1917 flu season (before the 'start' of the 'spanish flu') was itself fairly extreme compared to. The outbreak of the influenza epidemic was almost certainly a byproduct of both increased travel and wartime trade and also weakened immune systems from the disruptions in food supply/price inflation caused by the war. this would be especially true in major port cities, and unlike preceeding epidemics this is really the golden age of rail travel not only is their ship borne illness spreading in weeks from say mainland france to Britain to the US, and back forth across those transatlantic routes there is also the migration of carriers overland via rail. [and thats without even touching on origin theories, or theories that suggest that the mutation in fluenza began either at or near the beginning of the war]

Click to shrink...

I accidentally discovered,that spanish flu/except being american,not spanish/ killed 4-9 millions in China - becouse local authorities used traditional herbs,or even drums,to heal it.Which,of course,not worked.

But,americans somehow fucked it more by using aspirin - which actually made it worst for patients with flu.

On the other hand,in american Samoa USA authorities used quarantine,and saved local population.

So,it all depends on what your americans would do.

P.S sometimes doctors used chnine,too - which also made things worst.

 

[Imperator Pax]

I accidentally discovered,that spanish flu/except being american,not spanish/ killed 4-9 millions in China - becouse local authorities used traditional herbs,or even drums,to heal it.Which,of course,not worked.

But,americans somehow fucked it more by using aspirin - which actually made it worst for patients with flu.

On the other hand,in american Samoa USA authorities used quarantine,and saved local population.

So,it all depends on what your americans would do.

P.S sometimes doctors used chnine,too - which also made things worst.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, and the aspirin thing, we still have to tell people 'don't take aspirin' that was a big deal with covid two years ago, because aspirin is basically and has been since basically the 1700s the default american treatment to near everything.

Spanish flu takes its name because spain was the only country not censoring their news and their king got sick, so even France went like 'Its spanish' despite the fact that it was english barracks in France by 1916. [There is also a Spanish barracks US Army Camp in Kansas which is also where the first diagnosed US case occurs in february 1917] hence why some people assume the actual mutation of influenza probably started before the war, and jumped into the trenchs (probably due to pigs and livestock before becoming very virulent in 1916 and going through the hospitals and getting into the general populations)

Quaruntine is going to be the main treatment along with masks, there is existing treatments in that because Shansi literally still has plague during this period (due to being carried by marmots) and that was the default solution to anything thats feverish and causes body discolorations

 

[ATP]

Yeah, and the aspirin thing, we still have to tell people 'don't take aspirin' that was a big deal with covid two years ago, because aspirin is basically and has been since basically the 1700s the default american treatment to near everything.

Spanish flu takes its name because spain was the only country not censoring their news and their king got sick, so even France went like 'Its spanish' despite the fact that it was english barracks in France by 1916. [There is also a Spanish barracks US Army Camp in Kansas which is also where the first diagnosed US case occurs in february 1917] hence why some people assume the actual mutation of influenza probably started before the war, and jumped into the trenchs (probably due to pigs and livestock before becoming very virulent in 1916 and going through the hospitals and getting into the general populations)

Quaruntine is going to be the main treatment along with masks, there is existing treatments in that because Shansi literally still has plague during this period (due to being carried by marmots) and that was the default solution to anything thats feverish and causes body discolorations

Click to shrink...

According to what i read,when people with spanish flu get aspirin,their lungs was gradually filled with water and they slowly drowned.Terrible way to go one of many cases,when doctors helped people die more horribly.

And yes,Quarantine in those times was only solution.In my country/Poland/ it manage to deal with spanish flu and typhus after WW1.
According to what i read,in Caliphornia in the same time it was lifted with bad results.

 

[Imperator Pax]

14 August 1917
At the time, he had made a point of taking the recommendation to read the local literature in the Phillipines... not that it had made much difference most of it had been written by landholders, and it hadn't helped him in the moro lands. It had been good advice in principle, but in practice it hadn't helped what the war department had had him doing. He hadn't been able to read Joseon's script when it would have helped any. He had been able to read Japanese and Russian fine... which had been why Wood had recommended him for the posting in the region in the first place once the Phillipines had calmed down.

Zhu Xi had chronicled that the ideal model which governments should base themselves on was the family. Ideal tended to be the emphasis word. The beiyang clique certainly modelled itself as an extended clan... right down to actual sub cliques comprised of various in laws... and that meant contending with all the real disputes a real family had.

Feng didn't seem to overly object to the war declaration against Germany and Austria Hungary... maybe because he didn't think anything was going to come of it, but he certainly didn't like the motions Duan was advocating for down south. Duan was moving not just against Hunan but also suggesting putting northern troops into Szechwan, at least along the river itself if not necessarily the interior of the province.

Percy was too elated at the diplomatic achievement of another country to add to the list of those neutrals who had 'turned against the hun' to pay much heed to it. John Jordan had probably noticed, but put it aside. Reinsch was fretting but also fretting that the United States shouldn't take sides either and that it was an internal matter. The Legation was for all intents and purposes largely useless in terms of that.

Reinsch was more interested in picking over the differences in the people in north and south, "Well I noticed in my most recent visit to the south, these charming halls, and the communal trusts that are common in the southern provinces. They just don't seem to be present in the north." The ambassador was saying even now.

There was a habit, or at least a more pervasive one, in the south particularly in Fukien where John Jordan had just returned from touring, that clan associations were formed to provide charitable contributions to the less affluent members of a shared lineage. Allen suspected the reason they weren't more common in the north was because legally speaking a father was supposed to divide his estate equitably between his sons, and potentially there was some disagreement here to provide dowries to daughters. This meant that in the north where the laws administered from peking were more likely to be enforced more rigorously that familial wealth was more frequently divided across the generations.

He said as much.

"True." Reinsch agreed, though he didn't necessarily like the somewhat unsavory implication of tax evasion and shady implication in general of the benevolent societies... and of course he was probably right some of those halls were probably just what they said they were... but some of them were also fronts for the Tongs and Triads to funnel money to unsavory things. "If of course a government is close at hand its much easier to insure everyone is fair treated... but also Monasteries are more common."

"In Manchuria? Sure, Mongolia absolutely." here... not as much, "But they have a commercial component." Monasteries held land, they raised crops, or livestock. They were businesses, after a point... exactly how much business they did wildly varies, and like the brown robes in Belgium... well had... they brewed alcohol too, which certainly could be lucrative.

... and if he were being honest he suspected that the Mandarins... back when the red robes had still be around had been less willing to tangle with northern monasteries that might have the patronage of the nobility than lesser clan halls... but again speculation.

"you're smirking?"

He lifted the drink, "I was thinking about how congress graduated my class early to fight in the Phillipines, but at the time the war department didn't seem to think the Boxers were a pressing problem." Reinsch tried to explain that, but he'd never been in uniform, and he'd been writing papers on international law... so he was speculating too.

... but then after well all the papers wanted to talk about had been the siege of Peking that had even to an extent overshadowed Teddy's charge up San Juan Hill. Certainly the New York Sun had thought so, claiming the siege the most exciting thing witnessed by civilization.

He certainly could have done without the rehashing of how medieval the lifting of the siege had turned out... especially since now that the states were at war with the germans Reinsch was happy to talk about it since it didn't 'impinge on neutrality'.

"You know the British promised Japan the territories of the Germans." The British probably in 1914 would have given the Japanese more if they had asked. Reinsch was askance at it, Tsingtao wasn't the British to give, but on the other hand there was legal precedent for the Victorious side taking colonies off their enemies and redistributing them ... and that was probably the legal basis for Britain making the argument

"Zimmerman's telegraph,"

While it had largely been overshadowed by the sheer temerity of the bastard yammering about lost territories of Texas and New Mexico it hadn't escaped him that Zimmerman had wanted Mexico to indepently reach out to Japan to try and get around the Anglo-Japanese alliance... but then Zimmerman seemed to be misinformed about a lot of things. That poor dumb bastard. "Well, now China isn't neutral." Allen remarked.

"Right, I have cabled Secretary Lansing." He didn't elaborate on the response.

... Allen didn't mention that they had passed the word to the secretary of state that Duan apparently had the votes, and then when the votes had come down that China would be following the direction of such friendly nations as Cuba to participate. "Yes, I believe that opens the way for US foreign aid to China for the war."

"Yes, yes it does. Secretary Lansing has made it quite clear that US assistance, monetarily and materially will be available once the war declaration passed." Which implied that the minister had yet to receive a response... which probably meant Lansing was out of the office whenever the cable had come in.

"I take it the British are happy?"

"I have not spoken to Minister Jordan today, I am afraid, but I would hazard to guess he will be pleased with the news." It would have been nice to have confirmation, but they'd find out later, it was just good that they were back on the subject of the day.

The truth was the British had put a great deal of effort in swaying the neutrals... but Lord Northcliffe... among others had been pretty adamant that they had to be savvy about it. Britain had also been laboring under the misinterpretation that this was a repeat of earlier conflicts... and in a way it was ... people in england had thought the boer war would be over by Christmas... "I imagine he will."

"Has your opinion Siems Carey changed?"

"It has not mister Minister. It has not." He wondered how connected Reinsch was with the professional service of the state department... not very had always been the reading he had. Reinsch was an academic and more concerned with his own views than necessarily doing what Lansing... or Bryan before him had done. "Has Lansing brought it up?"

"Not since the unfortunate business in July."

The glass clinked... Lansing had brought it up in July? That was news. The problem was that France throwing a fit the year before in particular had really soured the American Railway Corporation's board to trying to ge the project underway. Not the least of which was it was a fairly daunting proposal to begin with, "So what then?"

"The canal everyone agrees needs maintenance, badly. There are other pieces of infrastructure that need construction, and overhauls of the telegraph system are another factor."

"I have a large project underway already, can't be helped."

"I was under the impression your great western line was completed?"

"It was." He replied, "There has been funding to connect it to the other cities of the old silk road."

Reinsch knew nothing about trains but he could still read a book, and read a map well enough. He understood the distances as a detail. "All of them, you're the Russian contract Jordan mentioned?"

"That surprises you?"

The midwesterner shook his head his brows bushy. "Its just a little queer the Russians agree to you building a railway in Central Asia, but Siems Carey is the bridge too far."

He shrugged, "Its not just the Tsar, its the French too, and its not a big railway." Not compared to the volume of work that the American Railway corporation had been preparing to sub contract out on the contract. Siems Carey was a much bigger deal, more liable venture than he was giving it credit for, "And its not just them. The Canal connects the whole east of the country." Well it didn't actually, but for all intents and purposes, "Thats complicated work." Even if the French agreed with the Open Door Policy as the states understood it Fukien wasn't going to be happy.
--
He put the ledger aside.

The issue of financing things was complicated. Coal and iron as productivity were useful... now in terms of export more than ever as demand he continued to go up. Expanding laterally wasn't just about keeping costs down, it had been about insuring supply and at a normal price, at a normal quantity on a fixed schedule. It abrogated any possibility of needing to buy parts from Europe in the business, but it also reduced dependence with the exception of things like machine tools on the states.

That wasn't to say there wasn't benefit to observing what the old empires did. Far from it. "Phillips?" He had been considering suggesting Dawes given the protracted artillery use... and for other reasons Dawes had family ties in Washington, and he was older.


"We send Powell we're just as likely not get him back until this is done. Phillips we can send him to England not even blink." Cole replied. "What do you reckon, Duan serious?"

"I think he is, how much of that is because he thinks Yuan Shikai had the right idea thats the question. I think he wants to be at the table... when France and Britain divvy up the spoils."

"and I think he thinks he needs to make a move."

"The brother in law,"

a nod answered the not really a question, "And the other one too. We send Phillips to England, did the professor ask you about the divisions?"

He shook his head, "No, and I don't expect Reinsch to,"

"He's ostriching?" It was his turn to shrug, because he wasn't sure if that was the case... or because he didn't think to ask about it, "Thats funny given how often the 15th​ gets called up, but then Division HQ says we can't give you more troops because the war department says we're trying to avoid choosing sides." Which was of course a directive from state as well... it didn't matter what the legation asked for Lansing didn't want a swelling of a US division in China with the current president in the white house. Lansing did not want to, even if that danger had largely passed into history, of having missionaries stir up the locals by offending local customs and have them running to American colors to hide behind. If there was an advantage the 15th​ division had it was that the troops were liked for not causing trouble... and why would they the China post was the best posting in probably the whole army. "So the money?"

"Reinsch confirmed that Lansing did mention foreign aid to Duan. Then he asked about Siems Carey."

Cole leaned forward, and finally moved his cavalry boots off of the ottoman, "Lansing, or do you mean Reinsch?"

"Reinsch asked, but I don't know if he was asking on the secretary's behalf. He didn't mention the trans siberian, which I admit could be nothing... but the thing is he said Lansing asked about the canal work in July before Zhang Xun marched into Peking."

"Shit," Cullen grunted, "You told him that'd be poking the hornets nest right, it'd shove a stick right in the nest. It'd be us and the Japs versus the French and Russians, have the Brits told you where they'd fall?"


"No I have no idea right now." Allen replied.

--
Notes: Japan, in 1917 / 1918 (this is the Terauchi government, and the Industrial bank of japan) was supportive of joint Anglo/American-Japanese efforts to finance the Siems Carrey agreement, France and Russia were still opposed, and British opinion was divided and as a result of French legal challenges the year before the ARC's board was still wary of actually agreeing to take the project on (though as we will see in november Carey signed the dotted line in November)... and for good reason there were other factors than just the french legal challenges.

 

[Imperator Pax]

16 August 1917
There were on his desk presently a small mountain of newspapers. Some of them were completely useless. Allen did not for the life of him understand King George's silly decision to change his name to Windsor... admittedly that yes House Saxe Coburg Gotha was something of a mouthful, it was rather the sort of thing that maybe meant a bit more if he'd done in 1915...

... or it was just another queer British-ism. He really didn't get it.

The French were rushing to blame all their recent failures on spies. It was clearly a desperate attempt to save face, but at least it made sense.

There was last week's earthquake down south that people were finally putting the pieces together on. Not that that had in anyway of Duan Qirui pivoting from blaming the Germans for supporting Zhang Xun's attempt at a Manchu restoration to then blaming unwillingness of southern parliamentarians, the KMT and affiliates, as being in the pocket of German interests. There were a couple of papers going on about that... but it was all hot air.

There were no facts just the implication and the outrage.

That might be enough that it discouraged foreign investors from supporting potential southern ventures. It might be enough that overseas aid societies looked a little askance at sending money back to china.

As for the alleged 'evidence'... With as ubiquitous as the Mexican silver dollar was in international trade and in China in particular... it would be bloody hard to prove Sun was taking money from the Germans in particular unless the doctor ponied up receipts... which could be just as useful to the north for other reasons.

He'd been more inclined to dismiss such a German plot if not for the sheer boneheadness of the Zimmerman telegraph. It was a pity they didn't have such an incriminating document to put forward and settle things.

Nakamichi came in and shut the door, then sat down. "I have had an unfortunately timed, problematic conversation." A painful phrase... probably trying too hard to make it sound less harsh than however the conversation had gone.

"Who with?"

"The minister of trade in Tokyo, he had spoken with the Ambassador."

Allen blinked expansively, to slow him, that was a little more information. "Your ambassador or the states, and to which country, and Regarding what sort of trade." cause he could guess where this was going. Purchasing agents had been a thing before this war... every nation had them, but this war had expanded the habit to hitherto unfathomable levels.

... Indeed the winding conversation turned into a rehash of the war. When the war had broken out the global steel market had went crazy. Heavy industry in general had. The lose of German mills and their production had increased prices, but the near complete loss of any European mills on the foreign market with all of their production being redirected to the war effort had forced China and Japan to rely on US exports or on comparatively to the US domestic manufacturing.

That was a problem. Japan produced steel, but there were certain types of steel that Japanese mills couldn't make. This was not a case of the yards not being big enough, that was a different problem.

With British demand the way it was prices rose such that they started buying whatever they could get there hands on to accommodate for their own lack of production capacity. The issue now lay in the US War Board and government inserting itself into production, and pointedly in Wilson looking to, perhaps or perhaps not yielding to French pressure, cap prices but also select which contracts had priority and that certainly indicated French influence because the French were pushing for not just below market prices for commodities but they wanted to be the ones to set the prices and they wanted priority for any goods.

"And your ambassador thinks Wilson will agree with a french preference on orders?"

"We think so."

He could see the logic though in Washington. The French, or the Russians, were the weakest members of the alliance. They were tired washed up, on the verge of collapse whatever, it might be good to give them a little charity to keep them in the war until the US could bring the expeditionary in to put Germany's lights out like Lloyd George wanted. What he called that 'knock out blow'.

"You realize every time we have increased production the British buy up what goes to market."

"Yes."

It hadn't really been a question. Nakamichi wasn't stupid, of course he had known that. The war had been going on since 1914. "Thats not going to last forever, call it 1920. After that the price will contract, stabilize, return to a price not inflated by present conditions. You could save hard currency if you wait."

"This is logical, yes." Nakamichi, "However it does not change that while we recognize our allies need access to steel we also are building things which require steel, and if the French demands are acceded to that pushes us further from our own aims."

"<manganese for soft steels, Nikel, argon, Aluminium, Zinc, Aluminum especially, we can do, but the British don't trust us to manufacture armor plate for them." not the least of which was because it wasn't exactly as if the Chinese had a 'real' navy so far as brass were concerned. It was true that the Royal Navy begrudgingly trusted the US Navy to make spare armor for them, but even that had been purported to require significant arguments since the Australians couldn't do it despite all the investment before the war. "You can make a list and we can talk about it, but I'll be honest even if the war lasts three more years it will take almost that long for us to expand significant volumes."

"I cannot speak for the gentlemen in the navy." And Nakamichi was army so the emphasis he put in calling them gentlemen was ... approaching a little astringent. "We are concerned though that if we do not lock in a production share of new production now, prices will continue to increase," Much as prices were continue to inflate on all other goods, food especially came to mind. "I except that from what you've said regarding the British, and their railway project in the west you have your own needs."

"Technically that's accounted for under allocations," With British money to handle those expenses through December. The British wanted the railway built, if they were lucky they'd be at the border by the first serious snow. "If you can find out the details we can solidify things."
--
Powell's telegram was exuberant, exuberant was probably the best word for it. It rolled off the pages as he made comparisons to how primitive the railways of the 19th​ century had been. How it had taken six grueling years of labor after the war between the states to by hand and with only black powder to link pacific to Atlantic.

Cole, who's father had supervised work on both ends of the line, had rolled his eyes as Bill had narrated the telegram from on top of a stool "If you listen to him," Cole presumably meant Powell even though he jerked his head at the Texan. "We should damn well aim to beat the record."

"We could probably do it." Sam added. Then after a pause shook his head, "Maybe we should wait until 1920 before we make a run at that."

"He's only bringing it up because Stevens is in Vladivostok." Cole stated, "He's preening to state like a peacock looking for a hen." Which wasn't necessarily a bad thing per se, but at the same time there were limits to how fast they could expand to meet new demand. "You know this is about getting us involved in middle America."

There was a knock on the door, and Bill got off the stool, without it tripping over, and since he was closest opened it. "Captain." He greeted the Mongol officer.

"With respect General McCulloch," Cole snorted, "The Minister is here." Allen leaned over to the window pushed the dressings over and made sure that there weren't any cherry red mitsubishi's parked in the yard, but no there was however a long black one with little American flags on the front. Admittedly it would have been awkward if John Jordan had taken a train to them without any kind of forewarning... but Reinsch showing up? Reinsch went down to the train station, would take the train all the way to Canton by himself if the legation didn't watch him so his presence wasn't all that unusual. The presence of the state car suggested that yes the Legation did in fact know where the minister was and that he didn't need to ring Tietsin.

Seeming to read the thought, "You want me to call the Colonel before the professor gets up here?" Allen thought about then nodded, Cole shuffled his feet off of the ottoman and moved to the conference phone.

Sam stood up, "Well I have some work that I need to do for second division allotment of machine guns, and I think I should be going." Or Gone before the ambassador got here. Cole followed out with a similar excuse to the Gendarmes under his command. That left him and Bill while the captain went back to whatever he'd been working on before.

"What do you think?"

"About the record? Its a bit late for us to shoot for it," This decade, "Sam's right we should wait and make a play for it after all this fighting is over." Oil was going to be big business, Kerosene was already big business in the province. They were going to need to run rails through the province in general, for goods and services, and that was without even considering the Ma clique or arrangements with Yan about further branches. Drills were complex machines, the wells were complicated.

That was just one avenue of many.
--
Notes: So the record they're referring to is the amount of rail track laid in a decade. In the 1880s as part of a wealth of new technologies and new practices the US laid down 70000 miles of track in this decade. The United States never exceeded this in a time frame, despite new technologies, such as prime earth movers becoming available within the following decades. They also didn't exceed this number despite needed to extensively regauge existing lines in the following decades of the construction of the 'inter urbans'.

Indeed in this decade in 1916 US mileage of railway is believed to have hit its peak, and again most of this rail was largely constructed by hand tools and blackpowder, though blackpowder was being superseded by TNT (and also dynamite for that matter) post 1870.

Japan's navy had gotten it into their head that they wanted eight battleships, and eight battle cruisers this is the so called Eight Eight plan. It would have bankrupted the country, and also it was unviable for other reasons, Japan in 1916 and indeed even in the thirties simply did not have the ability to domestically produce that volume of modern armor plate without importing.

The result is that in the interwar years during the years of London treaties Japan decides to forgo complex alloy steel that require foreign materials to save money and maintain economic independence. Perfectly reasonable solution, the old armor plate is still function it offers protection, and is done because Japan has some major financial problems post ww1.

The problem is still the navy is still the senior service and doesn't understand that the money just wasn't there. The reason Japan agreed to naval limitations post ww1 is the government knew they couldn't sustain that kind of building program (unfortunately some of the people who made these decisions were civilians, and some were from the army so the Navy screamed betrayal and bloody murder). Japan had been during world war 1 looking for supplies of metals, this was also the period where the US had various metals as duty free (the wilsonian free trade policies) in order to keep for example navy costs down (the USN had been complaining about commercial armor plate costs as well) as well as other metallic at lower tariff prices (which Wilson's successor Harding promptly torpedoes in his two year presidency, and sustained by Coolidge)

In any event, September 1917 runs a bit long, and November 1917, for obvious reasons, is mostly focused on broader international implications of world events

 

[ATP]

Czang Kai-szek certainly was supported by germans after WW1,but dunno what was happening in 1917.
About Japan pland - yes,nobody could afford their plans,but in Waschington treaty british really betrayed their Japan allies for nothing.
And,as a result,after WW2 both countries becomed USA vassal states.
They really should cooperate in their own best interests.

 

[Imperator Pax]

Czang Kai-szek certainly was supported by germans after WW1,but dunno what was happening in 1917.
About Japan pland - yes,nobody could afford their plans,but in Waschington treaty british really betrayed their Japan allies for nothing.
And,as a result,after WW2 both countries becomed USA vassal states.
They really should cooperate in their own best interests.

Click to shrink...

Chiang is apart of the KMT establishment by this point, he's back from Japan... or is at least currently in Canton, he may have gone back and forth (there is a lot of travel back and forth of various leaders from Japan and China, Sun goes to Japan very frequently during this period)

As to washington, it would have been better to let Japan in 1920 have their 70 % of US strength and let them just bleed money, the Diet would have eventually went 'we can't afford this' and eventually the navy would have lost that argument instead the navy had an easy excuse to scream about being betrayed by everyone. It would have made significantly more sense to let the Japanese legally match US or UK tonnage and just not have article XIX*, because the British were already facing a post war downturn (the recesssion/depression that followed the war would last pretty much entirely up to the british rearmament program in 35) and curtailing their own planned building program.

Meanwhile the US congress "We set the navy's budget." and laughs all the way to the bank because they know they're not going to go on an outrageous spending spree, hindsight is twenty twenty


*and thats not to say thats by any means a perfect solution, I get why no new naval fortifications was put in place, and I understand the US's position and that the US was eavesdropping on diplomatic cables, but the British position against Japan seems to have been I don't know I can't speak to what motivated the end of the Anglo-Japanese alliance because the decision not to renew it was made before WNT negotiations started.

 

[ATP]

Chiang is apart of the KMT establishment by this point, he's back from Japan... or is at least currently in Canton, he may have gone back and forth (there is a lot of travel back and forth of various leaders from Japan and China, Sun goes to Japan very frequently during this period)

As to washington, it would have been better to let Japan in 1920 have their 70 % of US strength and let them just bleed money, the Diet would have eventually went 'we can't afford this' and eventually the navy would have lost that argument instead the navy had an easy excuse to scream about being betrayed by everyone. It would have made significantly more sense to let the Japanese legally match US or UK tonnage and just not have article XIX*, because the British were already facing a post war downturn (the recesssion/depression that followed the war would last pretty much entirely up to the british rearmament program in 35) and curtailing their own planned building program.

Meanwhile the US congress "We set the navy's budget." and laughs all the way to the bank because they know they're not going to go on an outrageous spending spree, hindsight is twenty twenty


*and thats not to say thats by any means a perfect solution, I get why no new naval fortifications was put in place, and I understand the US's position and that the US was eavesdropping on diplomatic cables, but the British position against Japan seems to have been I don't know I can't speak to what motivated the end of the Anglo-Japanese alliance because the decision not to renew it was made before WNT negotiations started.

Click to shrink...

In 1923 USA made Japan leave Siberia,promising that soviets do not get it.Then they gave it to soviets.Including Magadan ,when Sralin later made his most famous death camps where more then 90% of prisoners die digging gold which could belong to Japan otherwise.

They do have reasons to be wary of USA.

 

[Imperator Pax]

In 1923 USA made Japan leave Siberia,promising that soviets do not get it.Then they gave it to soviets.Including Magadan ,when Sralin later made his most famous death camps where more then 90% of prisoners die digging gold which could belong to Japan otherwise.

They do have reasons to be wary of USA.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, but that was all after Washington. The treaty had been signed well before that, and negotiations had concluded. Further, Japan's new PM had already agreed to get out of Russia by that point, this was not a unilateral American decision (even though yes, the principle US interest here was the matter of loans, and winding down foreign entanglement but yes I emphatically agree the Harding admin dropped the ball hard here by not excercising greater oversight of SecState Hughes, who yes in relation was also the principle US architect of the WNT.)

What I'm saying is, I can figure the US's angle in all of this, what I don't understand (I'm sure there is some FSO document from 1920 or early 21 that spells out this, that I just haven't found and read. It'd be public record by this point) is why Britain before this, before the WNT negotiations already decided to end to not renew the A-J Alliance. I don't know with certainty what Britain's policy motive was there (I can understand disengagement as a policy from the continent, I have a hard time understanding why Britain who invoked the AJA to bring Japanese ships into the war, and also to bring Japanese aid to the British war effort materially would then end that treaty. No one seems to have to have known this was coming in 1920 because even in 21 the IJN is still sending people to England to look at things like the British carrier program. So if the FSO had made this decision already some didn't tell the 3rd Sea Lord. This is a case where I just don't have the information.)

JPN: Had just changed leadership, this entailed getting out of Russian, the new PM did not want to be there
US: New President Harding, he doesn't want to be there, doesn't like foreign entanglements
UK: UK (I don't think Lloyd George has been replaced yet) has entered an economic depressions

All three of them are dealing with economic aftershocks of the war, is short sighted yes. But the US at the time (and this should sound awfully familiar) did not think that the whites would collapse certainly not as fast as they did. They expected the whites to be competent enough to fight, more so than they actually were, and simply put state did not understand the degree of political infighting going on... frankly because Hughes probably didn't care.

His position was probably capable of being summarized as 'we need to leave, it'll be fine'... and well frankly by this point Lenin had already started the first wave of red terror, yes it was winding down, but that was because he had a civil war going on, he basically had to stop in order to keep the economy from hemorrhaging to death (this is also the same reason Lenin makes his agreements with large banking institutions in the US, which was probably misinterpreted as Lenin moderating his position out of good nature as opposed to necessity, and also due to his own slow decline in health culminating in his death in two years).

And all of this will be touched on, down the road both in whats the same as historical as well as the difference and the knock on effects of different foreign policies. There are certain things that will not change. Harding has little reason to actually tell Hughes how to run the state department (other than the things he did IRL) and hughes has little reason to change his position, because they're not in power in 1918 and their campaign against Wilsonian politics hinge on not following wilson's policies for the most part. We will get to that.
--
Expanding on this:

This has a direct effect on US and UK foreign policy, as has been very recently brought up the US army before world war 2 is like eight [Regular Infantry] divisions and is roughly the size of the army of portugal. It is completely unprepared to fight the war that is coming in its configuration.

Similarly Britain remained in a depression from roughly the end of ww1 to basically '35 [yes economic technical definition it was a series of depressions but for all intents and purposes it didn't recover until then and break those cycles until 35 with rearmanent] and similarly with the us it is rearmament that ends the depression Roosevelt's new deal helps sets the stage for the rearmament that breaks the depression. The result of this the result of foreign policy is that from 1920 onward British becomes accommodation becomes appeasement, US policy is isolationism.

 

[ATP]

Yeah, but that was all after Washington. The treaty had been signed well before that, and negotiations had concluded. Further, Japan's new PM had already agreed to get out of Russia by that point, this was not a unilateral American decision (even though yes, the principle US interest here was the matter of loans, and winding down foreign entanglement but yes I emphatically agree the Harding admin dropped the ball hard here by not excercising greater oversight of SecState Hughes, who yes in relation was also the principle US architect of the WNT.)

What I'm saying is, I can figure the US's angle in all of this, what I don't understand (I'm sure there is some FSO document from 1920 or early 21 that spells out this, that I just haven't found and read. It'd be public record by this point) is why Britain before this, before the WNT negotiations already decided to end to not renew the A-J Alliance. I don't know with certainty what Britain's policy motive was there (I can understand disengagement as a policy from the continent, I have a hard time understanding why Britain who invoked the AJA to bring Japanese ships into the war, and also to bring Japanese aid to the British war effort materially would then end that treaty. No one seems to have to have known this was coming in 1920 because even in 21 the IJN is still sending people to England to look at things like the British carrier program. So if the FSO had made this decision already some didn't tell the 3rd Sea Lord. This is a case where I just don't have the information.)

JPN: Had just changed leadership, this entailed getting out of Russian, the new PM did not want to be there
US: New President Harding, he doesn't want to be there, doesn't like foreign entanglements
UK: UK (I don't think Lloyd George has been replaced yet) has entered an economic depressions

All three of them are dealing with economic aftershocks of the war, is short sighted yes. But the US at the time (and this should sound awfully familiar) did not think that the whites would collapse certainly not as fast as they did. They expected the whites to be competent enough to fight, more so than they actually were, and simply put state did not understand the degree of political infighting going on... frankly because Hughes probably didn't care.

His position was probably capable of being summarized as 'we need to leave, it'll be fine'... and well frankly by this point Lenin had already started the first wave of red terror, yes it was winding down, but that was because he had a civil war going on, he basically had to stop in order to keep the economy from hemorrhaging to death (this is also the same reason Lenin makes his agreements with large banking institutions in the US, which was probably misinterpreted as Lenin moderating his position out of good nature as opposed to necessity, and also due to his own slow decline in health culminating in his death in two years).

And all of this will be touched on, down the road both in whats the same as historical as well as the difference and the knock on effects of different foreign policies. There are certain things that will not change. Harding has little reason to actually tell Hughes how to run the state department (other than the things he did IRL) and hughes has little reason to change his position, because they're not in power in 1918 and their campaign against Wilsonian politics hinge on not following wilson's policies for the most part. We will get to that.
--
Expanding on this:

This has a direct effect on US and UK foreign policy, as has been very recently brought up the US army before world war 2 is like eight [Regular Infantry] divisions and is roughly the size of the army of portugal. It is completely unprepared to fight the war that is coming in its configuration.

Similarly Britain remained in a depression from roughly the end of ww1 to basically '35 [yes economic technical definition it was a series of depressions but for all intents and purposes it didn't recover until then and break those cycles until 35 with rearmanent] and similarly with the us it is rearmament that ends the depression Roosevelt's new deal helps sets the stage for the rearmament that breaks the depression. The result of this the result of foreign policy is that from 1920 onward British becomes accommodation becomes appeasement, US policy is isolationism.

Click to shrink...

Unfortunatelly,not true.Anthony Sutton discovered,that USA supported soviets from the start.Why?
soviets first send Wall Street 900t of tsar gold
Then they send people and church stolen gold.
Then they stolen grain from farmers,and sell it to USA.

Unfortunatelly,they also were genociders from the start - Gulags were started in 1918,just like CzK.Everybody who wonted knew that,knew that.So,USA must knew,too.

USA supported soviets,becouse Wall Street wonted it.Why? to get rid of concurents.Russia after 1905 reforms started develope and would become first world economy after 1950.
Soviets always were,and must be,economical disaster.

That is why Wall Street send Trocky with gold to made revolution.

And,it worked.After revolution,soviets never become economical danger to USA.

 

[Imperator Pax]

Unfortunatelly,not true.Anthony Sutton discovered,that USA supported soviets from the start.Why?
soviets first send Wall Street 900t of tsar gold
Then they send people and church stolen gold.
Then they stolen grain from farmers,and sell it to USA.

Unfortunatelly,they also were genociders from the start - Gulags were started in 1918,just like CzK.Everybody who wonted knew that,knew that.So,USA must knew,too.

USA supported soviets,becouse Wall Street wonted it.Why? to get rid of concurents.Russia after 1905 reforms started develope and would become first world economy after 1950.
Soviets always were,and must be,economical disaster.

That is why Wall Street send Trocky with gold to made revolution.

And,it worked.After revolution,soviets never become economical danger to USA.

Click to shrink...

My problem with Sutton's work, specifically his claims from the early twenties is that its facts not in evidence. The Ford thing, absolutely that is well supported, that will be covered here. That the soviets sent gold to wall street, yes that will be covered here... my problem with sutton is that he claims that these claims begin earlier than the evidence suggests. That is to say that it begins closer to the start of the bolshevik uprising. The indepently verifabile claims of particularly after 21, 22 I plan to use, but I think Sutton reads a little too much into some of the comments of 1917 without actual materiel proof that aid started that early. [and yes in Suttton arguments on ending potential Russian competition, this is lightly touched on when I talk about Oil in the Russian market, Standard Oil as an example was not happy with Vickers going into and developing the Baku fields in the caucus thats one solid example and that was an 1890s thing]

ANd yes, State Terror by the Bolsheviks begin in 1917 I am not in any way saying it didn't. The gulags were a continuation of the Imperial system, in some cases they didn't change guards at the beginning, people knew this was going on, it was not a secret so much as people kind of just walked around it in conversations.

 

[ATP]

My problem with Sutton's work, specifically his claims from the early twenties is that its facts not in evidence. The Ford thing, absolutely that is well supported, that will be covered here. That the soviets sent gold to wall street, yes that will be covered here... my problem with sutton is that he claims that these claims begin earlier than the evidence suggests. That is to say that it begins closer to the start of the bolshevik uprising. The indepently verifabile claims of particularly after 21, 22 I plan to use, but I think Sutton reads a little too much into some of the comments of 1917 without actual materiel proof that aid started that early. [and yes in Suttton arguments on ending potential Russian competition, this is lightly touched on when I talk about Oil in the Russian market, Standard Oil as an example was not happy with Vickers going into and developing the Baku fields in the caucus thats one solid example and that was an 1890s thing]

ANd yes, State Terror by the Bolsheviks begin in 1917 I am not in any way saying it didn't. The gulags were a continuation of the Imperial system, in some cases they didn't change guards at the beginning, people knew this was going on, it was not a secret so much as people kind of just walked around it in conversations.

Click to shrink...

Wall Street still keep Trocky in NY in good home,and send to Russia with 10.000 dollars in gold.When Canadian captured him,USA made him released and send on ship to Russia.
Which mean,that they supported soviets from the start.
Yes,i knew that they for a time payd Kolczak,too - but less.
And Green,who really helped people,never get even one dollar.

About Gulags - no,it was not the same.I read memories of polish prisoners in tsar camps - they were well fed,and healthy.
Gulags - averagely 20% died during few year,becouse they were worked to death.
In Magadan case,almost 100% - from 16-12.000 send there in 1940 survived till 1941 less then 500.And,from polish boyscouts and girlsscout send there after WW2 none survived.
Pity,that USA removed Japan from that place.They could be cruel,but not like this.

 

[Imperator Pax]

16 August 1917
In the Confucian conception of things your obligation to your superior existed contingent on their benevolence. There were disagreements about exactly how much that obligation was contingent, but theoretical ideal was absolute obedience to ones parents.

Or in the case of a government, which of course was supposed to be modelled on the family, which Reinsch perceived as nothing more than a feudal hold over. The Qing had attempted to implement German corporate law in theory but in practice not only had it not stuck due to cultural differences it also hadn't stuck because the Qing had readily carved out exemption upon exemption.

Part of that had been the Qing had expected a corporate entity to act effectively as a family unit in obligation to its different hierarchies. The concept of committees and staff and board meetings, managerial concepts they could understand... share holding and such had been harder for the Confucian literati to articulate on. That was harder to put into context of a pseudo family hierarchy, and they'd never really come up with a suitable, acceptable explanation... and it hadn't helped that German corporate law hadn't been the best answer for it... the consequence was that there were very few publicly traded corporations.

"The Chinese insistence on gavelkind while noble in its concept of fairness." The minister continued droning on, "Is detrimental to long term business. Yes, with Japan their primogeniture system is itself a feudal holdover but the keiretsu endure generation to generation." He stopped to sip from the tea. "You have long ties to the Japanese, you know how they organize, I don't see why that couldn't be done for China."

"Because the major Japanese families were already tied to the Meiji government, so when the government privatized the mines who bought them up?"

Reinsch put the tea cup down, "So why not do it here?"

"What makes you think it wasn't done here?" Reinsch was either fooling around playing question answer games, or it had just had slipped his mind. "It did. The Qing had recognized they didn't have the experience to run some of their assets and sold them off to prominent families, and that accelerated after the republic was declared," More than a few state owned coal mines in Honan and Anwhei had been sold off to influential provincial families there at cost much like the Japanese had done in the 1870s. "Why are there technically more joint stock companies, I couldn't say." He really couldn't, and he called them technically because the Zaibatsu rarely allowed stock to slip out on the private market when they could avoid it. Stock was carefully managed between main and branch families, "But in Japan the families of means own banks and have holding companies to manage operational arms." Reinsch pursed his lips at what could be construed as militarist language, but it really hadn't been intentional that was simply how he thought of how the manufacturing or insurance issuing bodies of a corporate entity were.

Zaibatsu in its meaning presumed a single family sitting on the majority of the assets. Mitsui, or Okura, it didn't matter what they said. The main family was at the top with shares parceled out to the branch families and then all outsiders in the wings. Reinsch was quick to turn the discussion though onto the 'new zaibatsu' the second generation that ha been emerging growing rapidly on the war time glut of work. These were the companies that had put the majority of shares up, Noguchi's Nichitsu came to mind pretty much immediately, and Allen wasn't surprised when Reinsch zeroed in on the engineer's firm.

"These are shipping charts."

He lifted the documents, "They are." The big man up in New York JP Morgan had tried, before the Philippines, to expand upon the US merchant fleet. It had flopped, which was a crying shame now. Probably the biggest set back the man had had in his entire career and it had lurked over him until he'd died in 1913... and now the US was facing a shipping shortage... and that was not even contemplating the British admission that they'd lost nearly a million tons back in April to the German's submarines.

The British Empire was maybe just shy of half of the world's maritime fleet... but the British shipyards had been choked of labor and steel and had yet to reach their pre war volume of laying.

"There is a shipping shortage back home."

"I am aware," to the tune of the army having maybe a quarter of a million in shipping tonnage to move men and supplies anywhere, "The new construction is late going on, it'll take time to show up, to make the difference."

"Of course of course." There was going to be an Allied Maritime Transport Council. Not that the British were going to let the French dictate the ocean routes that went through Asia. The Asiatic Market transit was absolutely critical to English financial flow. Trade from the British went to India, India went to the US, British shipping carried goods from Australia, to Japan and China as well. The Royal Commissions on the differ foodstuffs ran out of London but had purchasing offices across the whole world. With Japanese ships patrolling the south African coast and in the Mediterranean hunting uboats it was another reason. "There will be complaints about profiteering."

"There will be complaints about allowing foreigners a say in American enterprise. If the senate ever hears a half of what the French say to the English they'll flip the table," but Reinsch had a point that those same concerns had hit last year with the Shipping Act, which had itself been a compromise... but it wasn't going to satisfy everyone. It wouldn't address the issues of needing new berths for the ships needed to meet the voracious appetite. "Its out of my hands. As soon as my goods offload the rail its in British or Japanese ownership, where and how they send it on its way." The Free Trade agreement signed.... what seemed a lifetime ago was managed differently... and the possibility that the Virginian would apply something like the British to transpacific import exports was a little concerning.

Reinsch turned the subject to bulk iron hauls. He'd been misinformed. It would have been nice to make a cool million on each ship, but that the price of the goods, not profit. It was a profit industry.... a million per ship load, he wished.

It was about that point in the conversation that Reinsch sprung the news that Wilson was planning to try and implement steel price controls on the big US firms to reduce price. The negotiations back in the states would last the rest of the month and wouldn't take be announced until the end of September. The president had always been rather acerbic towards steel, and congress had the year before finally approved the creation of a federal mill to actually turn out armor plate over the continuing feuding between the navy boys and business over the costs it took to make armor plate... but then that whole argument had been initiated before the war and before demand had made economy of scale practical.

"If that's the way it falls." He replied... but the British had agreed to contracts, and the British wanted a railway built, they were already talking about some fella named Mackinder would meet them in Russia on the other side to settle out any issues over there... probably at the end of the year, maybe early next year. "I have existing contracts with the British, set prices through next year." Admittedly those prices had been before the continued rise in spring and certainly before those prices had reached their summer extreme in the states where Pig Iron had actually hit a hundred dollars per ton... which was mind boggling. He had never considered that it would go that high... not for a ton of pig iron.

No it was better to hold the price where it was... that was in no way sustainable even without the Virginian trying something... "The market is at risk of collapsing," The trade journals had already been warning about it, "prices stay this high it'll stifle demand," Which if that got time to build up supply, fine, but some producers would want prices to remain high and if they tried to hold prices at such a price... things would come tumbling down at the mills.... and looking at a depression worse than what US steel had been looking at in 1914 before the war had started.

Booms and busts.

As soon as Reinsch was gone the other door to the office opened. "Hell." Bill grunted. "Can they do that?"

"Maintain full employment of the mills?" He shrugged. "Sure. You heard the Minister, the navy is clamoring for a whole new fleet," No surprise there, the navy was the one thing mandated by the founding fathers and the congress had been vexed by that ever since, the Navy certainly wasn't going to let the opportunity slip by them. "There is no way to keep the smaller firms in business. They're not efficient." Full integration of a firm, a firm that ran coal and iron had train connections they could run it all to big mills and churn still out. "If you try and set prices where they're competetive with government contracts ..." US Steel would probably manage fifty percent profits if not better. "The good thing is, even if they look at our books... we're still tied in with the British for most costs from the first of the year."

"I thought at as much." and of course that was steel, billet especially, but steel products in general that didn't need to be shipped over the seas from Pittsburgh. Especially given that in the two years prices had on more than one set had nearly doubled. The topic price change over the last eight months even. "You know with the British blacklisting Guatemalan coffee," For german business partners, "Powell is bound to want to make a move."

He leaned back and shorted. "Yeah. I guess that's true." One thing at a time though. "What do you think?"

"I think somebody pushed Reinsch in our direction and Reinsch didn't know to check the details of things." It wouldn't have been the first time Reinsch had his naivety used against him. John Jordan really felt the professor was out of his depth as an ambassador, that he wasn't up to playing the game... and the French certainly thought the same... and Hayashi's biggest problems were people within the Japanese ministry not anyone outside it... it within the civil service and then perhaps arguments outside say with the Prime Minister's Personal Envoys like Nishihara.
--
Notes: We move into what will ultimately be the failed attempt to weld together that Anglo Japanese alliance into a broader effort against the Bolsheviks in particular in Siberia, but also towards efforts in the baltic. Now over the course of this this touch lightly on a couple of historical figures, for example on the British side there is Harold Mackinder, and Winston Churchill and a couple of a generals who we will get to later. On the Japanese side there are in addition to lesser generals, Yamagata Aritomo and the current prime minister, on the Chinese side there are are for example Duan Qirui and Zhang Tsolin up in Manchuria. Where this will ultimately fail is in the wilsonian presidency, well I say fail, in the sense of that the Siberian intervention doesn't go further, does not commit to toppling the Bolshevik government.

The support for intervention fails due to Wilson for two key reasons, Wilson lets ideology get ahead of national interest, and the second is that Wilson has a stroke, and his wife Edith seizes power and ousts Lansing (from State) and Wilson's infirmity paralyzes the government leading to very little productive happening until after Harding comes to power, and Harding is an isolationist.

Now unlike in IRL the timeline difference here is that the Anglo-Japanese alliance against the bolsheviks is more pronounced, especially due to knock on effects later in the following arc, which otherwise is largely focused on the wars in north China and the introduction of modern maneuver warfare in quick rapid succession followed by months and even years of peace. Basically brief periods of high intensity fighting being the dominant fighting as opposed to seasonal anti banditry campaigns.


Also either in the second half of this month, or in march we will probably resume updating the other story in this thread, the ring of fire story that I let sit on my other computer there is actually a decent volume of 1629 content more or less sitting in the folder I just got side tracked.

 

[ATP]

16 August 1917
In the Confucian conception of things your obligation to your superior existed contingent on their benevolence. There were disagreements about exactly how much that obligation was contingent, but theoretical ideal was absolute obedience to ones parents.

Or in the case of a government, which of course was supposed to be modelled on the family, which Reinsch perceived as nothing more than a feudal hold over. The Qing had attempted to implement German corporate law in theory but in practice not only had it not stuck due to cultural differences it also hadn't stuck because the Qing had readily carved out exemption upon exemption.

Part of that had been the Qing had expected a corporate entity to act effectively as a family unit in obligation to its different hierarchies. The concept of committees and staff and board meetings, managerial concepts they could understand... share holding and such had been harder for the Confucian literati to articulate on. That was harder to put into context of a pseudo family hierarchy, and they'd never really come up with a suitable, acceptable explanation... and it hadn't helped that German corporate law hadn't been the best answer for it... the consequence was that there were very few publicly traded corporations.

"The Chinese insistence on gavelkind while noble in its concept of fairness." The minister continued droning on, "Is detrimental to long term business. Yes, with Japan their primogeniture system is itself a feudal holdover but the keiretsu endure generation to generation." He stopped to sip from the tea. "You have long ties to the Japanese, you know how they organize, I don't see why that couldn't be done for China."

"Because the major Japanese families were already tied to the Meiji government, so when the government privatized the mines who bought them up?"

Reinsch put the tea cup down, "So why not do it here?"

"What makes you think it wasn't done here?" Reinsch was either fooling around playing question answer games, or it had just had slipped his mind. "It did. The Qing had recognized they didn't have the experience to run some of their assets and sold them off to prominent families, and that accelerated after the republic was declared," More than a few state owned coal mines in Honan and Anwhei had been sold off to influential provincial families there at cost much like the Japanese had done in the 1870s. "Why are there technically more joint stock companies, I couldn't say." He really couldn't, and he called them technically because the Zaibatsu rarely allowed stock to slip out on the private market when they could avoid it. Stock was carefully managed between main and branch families, "But in Japan the families of means own banks and have holding companies to manage operational arms." Reinsch pursed his lips at what could be construed as militarist language, but it really hadn't been intentional that was simply how he thought of how the manufacturing or insurance issuing bodies of a corporate entity were.

Zaibatsu in its meaning presumed a single family sitting on the majority of the assets. Mitsui, or Okura, it didn't matter what they said. The main family was at the top with shares parceled out to the branch families and then all outsiders in the wings. Reinsch was quick to turn the discussion though onto the 'new zaibatsu' the second generation that ha been emerging growing rapidly on the war time glut of work. These were the companies that had put the majority of shares up, Noguchi's Nichitsu came to mind pretty much immediately, and Allen wasn't surprised when Reinsch zeroed in on the engineer's firm.

"These are shipping charts."

He lifted the documents, "They are." The big man up in New York JP Morgan had tried, before the Philippines, to expand upon the US merchant fleet. It had flopped, which was a crying shame now. Probably the biggest set back the man had had in his entire career and it had lurked over him until he'd died in 1913... and now the US was facing a shipping shortage... and that was not even contemplating the British admission that they'd lost nearly a million tons back in April to the German's submarines.

The British Empire was maybe just shy of half of the world's maritime fleet... but the British shipyards had been choked of labor and steel and had yet to reach their pre war volume of laying.

"There is a shipping shortage back home."

"I am aware," to the tune of the army having maybe a quarter of a million in shipping tonnage to move men and supplies anywhere, "The new construction is late going on, it'll take time to show up, to make the difference."

"Of course of course." There was going to be an Allied Maritime Transport Council. Not that the British were going to let the French dictate the ocean routes that went through Asia. The Asiatic Market transit was absolutely critical to English financial flow. Trade from the British went to India, India went to the US, British shipping carried goods from Australia, to Japan and China as well. The Royal Commissions on the differ foodstuffs ran out of London but had purchasing offices across the whole world. With Japanese ships patrolling the south African coast and in the Mediterranean hunting uboats it was another reason. "There will be complaints about profiteering."

"There will be complaints about allowing foreigners a say in American enterprise. If the senate ever hears a half of what the French say to the English they'll flip the table," but Reinsch had a point that those same concerns had hit last year with the Shipping Act, which had itself been a compromise... but it wasn't going to satisfy everyone. It wouldn't address the issues of needing new berths for the ships needed to meet the voracious appetite. "Its out of my hands. As soon as my goods offload the rail its in British or Japanese ownership, where and how they send it on its way." The Free Trade agreement signed.... what seemed a lifetime ago was managed differently... and the possibility that the Virginian would apply something like the British to transpacific import exports was a little concerning.

Reinsch turned the subject to bulk iron hauls. He'd been misinformed. It would have been nice to make a cool million on each ship, but that the price of the goods, not profit. It was a profit industry.... a million per ship load, he wished.

It was about that point in the conversation that Reinsch sprung the news that Wilson was planning to try and implement steel price controls on the big US firms to reduce price. The negotiations back in the states would last the rest of the month and wouldn't take be announced until the end of September. The president had always been rather acerbic towards steel, and congress had the year before finally approved the creation of a federal mill to actually turn out armor plate over the continuing feuding between the navy boys and business over the costs it took to make armor plate... but then that whole argument had been initiated before the war and before demand had made economy of scale practical.

"If that's the way it falls." He replied... but the British had agreed to contracts, and the British wanted a railway built, they were already talking about some fella named Mackinder would meet them in Russia on the other side to settle out any issues over there... probably at the end of the year, maybe early next year. "I have existing contracts with the British, set prices through next year." Admittedly those prices had been before the continued rise in spring and certainly before those prices had reached their summer extreme in the states where Pig Iron had actually hit a hundred dollars per ton... which was mind boggling. He had never considered that it would go that high... not for a ton of pig iron.

No it was better to hold the price where it was... that was in no way sustainable even without the Virginian trying something... "The market is at risk of collapsing," The trade journals had already been warning about it, "prices stay this high it'll stifle demand," Which if that got time to build up supply, fine, but some producers would want prices to remain high and if they tried to hold prices at such a price... things would come tumbling down at the mills.... and looking at a depression worse than what US steel had been looking at in 1914 before the war had started.

Booms and busts.

As soon as Reinsch was gone the other door to the office opened. "Hell." Bill grunted. "Can they do that?"

"Maintain full employment of the mills?" He shrugged. "Sure. You heard the Minister, the navy is clamoring for a whole new fleet," No surprise there, the navy was the one thing mandated by the founding fathers and the congress had been vexed by that ever since, the Navy certainly wasn't going to let the opportunity slip by them. "There is no way to keep the smaller firms in business. They're not efficient." Full integration of a firm, a firm that ran coal and iron had train connections they could run it all to big mills and churn still out. "If you try and set prices where they're competetive with government contracts ..." US Steel would probably manage fifty percent profits if not better. "The good thing is, even if they look at our books... we're still tied in with the British for most costs from the first of the year."

"I thought at as much." and of course that was steel, billet especially, but steel products in general that didn't need to be shipped over the seas from Pittsburgh. Especially given that in the two years prices had on more than one set had nearly doubled. The topic price change over the last eight months even. "You know with the British blacklisting Guatemalan coffee," For german business partners, "Powell is bound to want to make a move."

He leaned back and shorted. "Yeah. I guess that's true." One thing at a time though. "What do you think?"

"I think somebody pushed Reinsch in our direction and Reinsch didn't know to check the details of things." It wouldn't have been the first time Reinsch had his naivety used against him. John Jordan really felt the professor was out of his depth as an ambassador, that he wasn't up to playing the game... and the French certainly thought the same... and Hayashi's biggest problems were people within the Japanese ministry not anyone outside it... it within the civil service and then perhaps arguments outside say with the Prime Minister's Personal Envoys like Nishihara.
--
Notes: We move into what will ultimately be the failed attempt to weld together that Anglo Japanese alliance into a broader effort against the Bolsheviks in particular in Siberia, but also towards efforts in the baltic. Now over the course of this this touch lightly on a couple of historical figures, for example on the British side there is Harold Mackinder, and Winston Churchill and a couple of a generals who we will get to later. On the Japanese side there are in addition to lesser generals, Yamagata Aritomo and the current prime minister, on the Chinese side there are are for example Duan Qirui and Zhang Tsolin up in Manchuria. Where this will ultimately fail is in the wilsonian presidency, well I say fail, in the sense of that the Siberian intervention doesn't go further, does not commit to toppling the Bolshevik government.

The support for intervention fails due to Wilson for two key reasons, Wilson lets ideology get ahead of national interest, and the second is that Wilson has a stroke, and his wife Edith seizes power and ousts Lansing (from State) and Wilson's infirmity paralyzes the government leading to very little productive happening until after Harding comes to power, and Harding is an isolationist.

Now unlike in IRL the timeline difference here is that the Anglo-Japanese alliance against the bolsheviks is more pronounced, especially due to knock on effects later in the following arc, which otherwise is largely focused on the wars in north China and the introduction of modern maneuver warfare in quick rapid succession followed by months and even years of peace. Basically brief periods of high intensity fighting being the dominant fighting as opposed to seasonal anti banditry campaigns.


Also either in the second half of this month, or in march we will probably resume updating the other story in this thread, the ring of fire story that I let sit on my other computer there is actually a decent volume of 1629 content more or less sitting in the folder I just got side tracked.

Click to shrink...

For Chineese,Emperor was father of all chineese families.Strange,but worked till it stopped working.
Intervention in Siberia - in OTL Wall Street supported soviets there for gold stealed from tsar,ortchodox chursh and private owners.The should do that again.

 

[Imperator Pax]

For Chineese,Emperor was father of all chineese families.Strange,but worked till it stopped working.
Intervention in Siberia - in OTL Wall Street supported soviets there for gold stealed from tsar,ortchodox chursh and private owners.The should do that again.

Click to shrink...

Yes agitation to disengage was a pressing factor when you had both an ideological component, as well as clear financial benefit, and that will be addressed in the early twenties (after Harding becomes president where, some people don't care where the gold came from (Lenin wasn't exactly shy about shipping people to forced labor camps to mine gold) if it meant resumption of trade and being able to sell things abroad. (because US exports actually reach their peak in 21 IIRC (and they only start declining because the tariff wars, this international trade overall)

But we will get to this in 1919 and 1920 more indepth as to what changes, and what remains the same on the world stage, and then especially when we get into the 20s with the UK, and with Japan publically..

WNT is hard to derail because it was Hughes baby, and the US the UK, and Japan all (the legislatures, and to a lesser extent the executive) went into it knowing that they wanted to cut naval spending but also recognizing that they needed a certain 'measure' of equivalency for national defense, and france is willing to agree to some things but not others even though the french republic really doesn't care for their navy, as long as they get to check the Italians in the med (something that they never actually accomplish because French naval doctrine in the med is contingent to being able to call the Royal Navy for help if a fight breaks out, but this goes to France is a continental land power the head of the French navy during this period is a vice Admiral during this period, with very short terms of service in post).

The situation with the Russian civil war and British and Japanese efforts to bottle up the soviets make for a more compact soviet union, and one focused on its european borders (and with good reason, lenin moves the capital to Moscow in part due to the success of operation Albion by the germans in 1917 even though German success was wildly ridiculously lucky in terms of pulling it off, but also because historically the RN then proceeds to sale into the baltic to make its prescence known post war) Now this story will not directly cover the intervention in the baltics, they'll be references but in the post war downsizing significant volumes of war materiel surplused out will go to anti soviet states by the British, especially after (in the next arc) the events of the Kings Honors, the events of which will shore up Japanese anti-bolshevik sentiments even though the post Terauchi government was flagging historically (in part because it was expensive, and guess who holds Japanese loans). Pre WW1 the major powers were heavily economically integrated both in capital, and labor movements and with the Entente and associate powers that increased during the war and remained true until really the post war slump and also due to again the tariff wars post conflict in the interbellum

 

[ATP]

Yes agitation to disengage was a pressing factor when you had both an ideological component, as well as clear financial benefit, and that will be addressed in the early twenties (after Harding becomes president where, some people don't care where the gold came from (Lenin wasn't exactly shy about shipping people to forced labor camps to mine gold) if it meant resumption of trade and being able to sell things abroad. (because US exports actually reach their peak in 21 IIRC (and they only start declining because the tariff wars, this international trade overall)

But we will get to this in 1919 and 1920 more indepth as to what changes, and what remains the same on the world stage, and then especially when we get into the 20s with the UK, and with Japan publically..

WNT is hard to derail because it was Hughes baby, and the US the UK, and Japan all (the legislatures, and to a lesser extent the executive) went into it knowing that they wanted to cut naval spending but also recognizing that they needed a certain 'measure' of equivalency for national defense, and france is willing to agree to some things but not others even though the french republic really doesn't care for their navy, as long as they get to check the Italians in the med (something that they never actually accomplish because French naval doctrine in the med is contingent to being able to call the Royal Navy for help if a fight breaks out, but this goes to France is a continental land power the head of the French navy during this period is a vice Admiral during this period, with very short terms of service in post).

The situation with the Russian civil war and British and Japanese efforts to bottle up the soviets make for a more compact soviet union, and one focused on its european borders (and with good reason, lenin moves the capital to Moscow in part due to the success of operation Albion by the germans in 1917 even though German success was wildly ridiculously lucky in terms of pulling it off, but also because historically the RN then proceeds to sale into the baltic to make its prescence known post war) Now this story will not directly cover the intervention in the baltics, they'll be references but in the post war downsizing significant volumes of war materiel surplused out will go to anti soviet states by the British, especially after (in the next arc) the events of the Kings Honors, the events of which will shore up Japanese anti-bolshevik sentiments even though the post Terauchi government was flagging historically (in part because it was expensive, and guess who holds Japanese loans). Pre WW1 the major powers were heavily economically integrated both in capital, and labor movements and with the Entente and associate powers that increased during the war and remained true until really the post war slump and also due to again the tariff wars post conflict in the interbellum

Click to shrink...

In 1919 Judenicz almost take Petersburg with one corp.I read memories of some russian woman,who claimed that Lenin survived only becouse he payed Baszkir to fought for him.
Those Baszkirs was later,of course,massacred.
In the same year Denikin with 100.000 almost defeat soviets.
In Siberia 70.000 Japaneese keep soviet in check till USA made them widraw.To be honest,they could take it till at least 1933.
Interesting TL for making - when Japan in 1931 go for both Manchuria and Siberia.And how it change world.

 

[Imperator Pax]

In 1919 Judenicz almost take Petersburg with one corp.I read memories of some russian woman,who claimed that Lenin survived only becouse he payed Baszkir to fought for him.
Those Baszkirs was later,of course,massacred.
In the same year Denikin with 100.000 almost defeat soviets.
In Siberia 70.000 Japaneese keep soviet in check till USA made them widraw.To be honest,they could take it till at least 1933.
Interesting TL for making - when Japan in 1931 go for both Manchuria and Siberia.And how it change world.

Click to shrink...

My problem with Denikin was I don't think he could have sustained that advance not only were there problems internally with the whites, he didn't have the supply chain support, now could greater international assistance have alleviated the latter? Yes. I can't comment on Judenicz, Denikin won victories in the western theater, but my understanding is that he was running into increasing problems with insubordinate almost feudal dynamic protests from his subordinate commanders as if this were the Russo-Japanese war's chain of command issues all over again. Foreign intervention wouldn't have helped that

Here? Japan and England get together in 1920, and with enough of a veneer 'this is totally an independent state' (we're talking about Green Ukraine in Siberia) to get the Harding Administration to look the other way. Is the US necessarily happy about it, no but Harding wants his return to normalcy more than he cares about 'some place in the east'. Now wilson would likely still withdraw US troops from Siberia in 1920 but an extent anglo-Japanese position of continued activity, and we will get to why the events of Kings honors are enough to support that. In particular the support of more arms into Latvia and Estonia during the early twenties.

 

[ATP]

My problem with Denikin was I don't think he could have sustained that advance not only were there problems internally with the whites, he didn't have the supply chain support, now could greater international assistance have alleviated the latter? Yes. I can't comment on Judenicz, Denikin won victories in the western theater, but my understanding is that he was running into increasing problems with insubordinate almost feudal dynamic protests from his subordinate commanders as if this were the Russo-Japanese war's chain of command issues all over again. Foreign intervention wouldn't have helped that

Here? Japan and England get together in 1920, and with enough of a veneer 'this is totally an independent state' (we're talking about Green Ukraine in Siberia) to get the Harding Administration to look the other way. Is the US necessarily happy about it, no but Harding wants his return to normalcy more than he cares about 'some place in the east'. Now wilson would likely still withdraw US troops from Siberia in 1920 but an extent anglo-Japanese position of continued activity, and we will get to why the events of Kings honors are enough to support that. In particular the support of more arms into Latvia and Estonia during the early twenties.

Click to shrink...

Yes,we could have better Siberia here.No Magadan death camps.
Denikin - yes,he fucked himself.When he meet Poland representives,all he could say was that Russia own all lands its hold,and Poland eventually could keep Warsaw,but even then do not destroy russian monuments made to show victory over Poland.

Reaction? we waited till soviets finished him.

But,Kolczak with better support could keep Siberia.

 

[Imperator Pax]

21 August 1917

He watched the electric bulb flicker. His thoughts were really elsewhere. When he'd been a cadet the Academy had made a point of showing them, the prospective corp of engineers, one of the brand new commercial power plants. It was a whole new concept back them. Electrical needing to be piped in from offsite had only become a thing really that decade. But there was more and more demand for electrical power, for bottled lightning, and it made more sense to have a big power plant somewhere... and that meant you could just wire houses to have electric lighting... and well not just houses. "And?" Allen shook his head to clear the cobwebs, and lifted his drink, "The Fukien clique doesn't have the money to run those ships, it doesn't matter."

"Sun has a navy now." The englishman remarked more emphasis on Navy, as if that changed things.

"So he's what going to turn to piracy? Or is going to run off to intern them in Japan. Sun does not have the money to man and pay for those ships. Those ships need maintenance, they've sat up in harbor for years now." and the lack of the use of the navy since 1915 made more sense now, "If the Fukien clique thought he did I think they seriously overestimate what the south's finances are." Not with the war on. "What you asking for, what has he possibly got?"

"He approached the Canton legation, British support in exchange for a declaration of war. You haven't heard anything about this?"

Allen sipped, the thought occured to him that Sun might have assumed he could potentially barter China's navy as an asset for the war... but that didn't add up the ships weren't really up to it... "He's a little late." It had been a little odd that Sun had been adamant about staying out of the war but it did make sense he wanted a little qui pro quo in exchange for going along, "Duan has the consent of parliament," How much strong arming he might have had to do for some seats was up in the air, but with the 'Research clique' and the 'communications clique' had certainly helped local down the finances side of things... if there was going to be any kind of problem it was going to be to the south. "No I haven't heard anything about this Percy." Besides of course the railway and the army, there was of course there were all the other things. The RPF had been a long time ago now, a long time, that had been a quick rustling, little more than a posse thrown together short term, part time at first... with the differences in how businesses differed between the countries, they needed to shift some things around, but they couldn't just copy Japan's model.

It was the matter that was more his focus, than... a bunch of rust buckets. That wasn't fair to the navy, but damn it, what good were they going to do anybody. "What do you think they'll do?"

"Go back to Duan or Feng, at least nominally." Someone had to pay the bills, and prestige was the main reason to even keep up a navy... Duan wasn't going to just write the expense off, and Feng ... well that was a harder question. "Get one of them to agree to abide by the constitution," per the agreement from... before the whole mess with Zhang Xun putting the toddler back on the throne... this year was insanity.

He remembered looking back after 1914 and thinking how insane that year had been, and 1917 had well blown it away....so for that if Powell wanted to be ambitious then let him.

"John Allen?"

"Sorry," He exhaled, and then clipped the question as a drawl on the words, "you going to tell me about your Parliamentarian?"

The conversation went that direction in name only. Percy couldn't tell him much so blustered on about social niceties, and so forth. Apparently the man was something of an academic, he probably would have gotten along well with Reinsch. The Minister could have done with another academic who was involved in official foreign service work or whatever... even Percy thought so. "You really can't tell me any more than that, come on Percy."

"There really isn't anything that comes to mind. Very fascinating ideas about the interplay of nations and the role geography has in shaping nations but what can I say beyond that." Mackinder didn't seem to have served in the army or navy. Percy probably would have mentioned that directly... but it also made sense the English Army, the actual British Army while larger than its American counterpart had still been small, and the Royal Navy had devoured the bulk of British spending on defense.

--
The gradual modifications to uniforms, and their manufacture had been simple enough. Dress uniforms were hand fitted for officers and some utility uniforms had Chinese sleeve work which had some practical utility in the field, but it wasn't standard. The true utilitarian changes to the uniforms had begun with changes to the shoulders in 1913, no epaulets. Then changes to the stiching for machine needles to deal with wear and tear in the field triple aught needle work to shore up sleeves, and gussets. Larger pockets, and more pockets, four on the chest. It went on like that , and it went both ways, the Army's dress jacket had turned into the preferred business jacket, slim fit, large pockets, but as much that Europe wasn't exporting as much in fashion these days.

Those manufacturing tasks had been picked up by clothing shops with machine tooling otherwise meant to produce men's wear for the states. It was part of the reason they hadn't considered going for anything in different colors until Cullen had slipped in that the Gendarmes pattern uniforms while identical in cut were to be in black.

"Tch, the navy? What good are those bastards." Cole snorted pulling a handful of six and half spitzers for his scoped rifle, and adjusted the position of his legs feeding them into the internal magazine. He cocked his head towards the piece of wire strung sheet metal, "What do you make that twenty twenty five mile winds."

Allen looked over, "Closer to twenty five," He replied looking at the movement of the trees bending under the western wind.

The hundred twenty three grain spitzer had more of a crack than the thunderclap of a larger 200 gr eight mill. There was a chime as the piece of steel was rattled at eight hundred yards the far right edge having taken the impact right before the wind gusted.

"So what do you think the doc is going to do?"

Allen shrugged, he still didn't think Sun had the money to actually keep the ships up, but that could be why he was ferretting around for British support, "What do you think?"

"He might follow everyone else's recent example, say Canton is independent."

"That's a thought." Allen replied. It might even make things simpler.

Cole eased the bolt back on the rifle, "British money, with the way Duan is accusing him of silver dollars coming from Kaiser Bill?"

He thought back to his comment at the beginning of the year, and then to the conversations in spring. "I would have thought he'd have been taking money from the Japanese. Something like the loans Qirui is taking from Mister Nishihara. The notion it might be German money," It was possible, "It might explain Sun Yat-Sen's opposition to declaring war." Or not. China was a big country. Sun taking the navy and running south put a lot of space between him and Peking... a navy was always going to be pricier than an army... the sea tried a lot harder to kill a fella.

Regardless of who his foreign backers were that kind of money meant he'd be able to pay for troops, and weapons. At the very least he'd be able to carve a niche out in the south. How much, that was the question.

The rifle shouldered as the wind died back down, "On the other hand it could be bullshit to try and erode the support Sun has in the national assembly." That seemed a bit more likely, but stranger things had happened.

"Are you the slightest bit worried about this?"

"Naw, I reckon that's your job. Big stuff is your job brother John, I'll do the detail work" He rang the plate again.
--
They had filed back in the study, short Elliot Kemper and young Carter, "Now." The Texan rumbled, "Say he does say Canton is independent, what then, you can't hold a city with just ships."

Which meant it would probably only last until one of the warlords down south got tired of him, and muscled him out of the rich port city. "Then of course he'll," Presumably he meant Duan, but it wasn't clear, who Cullen meant, "say something about the 1912 constitution to placate the navy." Or whoever else wanted to cling to the document written after the Fall of the Qing publicly. It hadn't been worth the paper it had been written on, and it had never really had much in the way of legal standing before Yuan Shikai had tossed it into the trash.

They continued through the bookshelf lined room, and the Texan blew a breath out, "I suppose they'd have a better point if they'd written the damned thing after they'd toppled the Qing," Or at least something they could claim had actually succeeded the provisional constitution, "So as to say it was what they were fighting for."

Allen was tall, but Bill had almost half a foot of height over him. "What is that?" He asked finally. He had originally thought it was a 1911 but now that he was beside the other man it was clearly not.

"Oh, yeah me and Sam," The other Georgian tossed a look at the two taller men, "took another look at Lewis's idea. The open bolt idea," He shrugged noncommittally, "If it was automatic then you could excuse the weight, because it'd need to be. I was nearly in favor to scrap the whole idea. Fifteen rounds though." He whistled, "This is provisionally mind you the P.45/15. We took Lewis's mag idea," Sam snorted at the 'we', the Texan was using "and built a Browning for it." The gun had a strangle toggle where the magazine release button was on his model 1911. Seeing his look, "Yeah, we took Lewis's magazine release and rotated it ninety degrees to make it ambidextrous. If you look at the magazines you can see where it locks in as well," That more or less confirmed to him that Bill planned to have a second pistol whenever he could needle Griswold into it. "It'll actually take with the way we did the magazine well standard 1911 magazines, but they do wobble in the well."

The gun would probably fit his hands well enough, but it would be too large for most men. The 1911 with its single stack magazine was quite ideal in that respect, though some people needed time to adjust to the sights. It was increasing in popularity over its only real rival the Mauser 96. There were still a number of various revolvers used, but they, and handful of other semi automatic pistols were steadily falling behind. With it nearly impossible to get guns from Europe though even the Broomhandle was losing ground to the 1911 pattern pistols now being produced domestically. The Lugers remained popular but harder to get than the the Mauser pistol.

"The swiss have a set of tooling for that," Cole remarked, handling the pistol, "I saw it when I was looking after our office out there, I think they're the only other ones with a set outside of Germany. Mausers, Tsingtao's arsenal has the tooling to make copies of the 96," and they probably weren't the only ones. Certainly Spain and Italy had tooling if not one of the other arsenals in China.

Sam took the large frame automatic from Cole, "I've been talking shop with Yan's chief machinist, he's worked up a forty five caliber one that runs." To forestall questions, "Its hand made, lovely vine engraving." He made a bunch of squiggly winding motions with his left trigger finger. Before the war had broken out one of the 1906 batch Luger trials pistols had been given to Griswold from DWM's representative on account of their existing friendship with Paul Mauser and the licensing of his rifles. Serial no 5 was in Sam's reference case, but they'd never even considered production of it given that in 1913 there bloody well hadn't been a point... and in 1914 Belgium had been occupied and FN had needed hard cash and had the Browning patents for everything under the sun. That technically had made them beholden to FN's agreement of noncompetition for those patents for pistols in the United States or Canada but they hadn't been aiming to compete with Colt anyway.
--
Notes: A couple of things, firstly it is a little ahistorical that Shansi Machine Bureau / Taiyuan Arsenal would be working on the 96 45ACP this early. Hence the implication here that it is a tool room prototype.

Yan Xishan for whatever reason made the decision to adopt and standardize on 45ACP whether he believed in stopping power or whatever (which I doubt since I've seen pictures of him carrying what appears to be a colt 1903 the 'pocket hammerless'), he authorized the production of both pistols and submachine guns (including Thompsons) in Taiyuan in the late twenties. It is possible that Yan (as indicated here) had already made that decision, and he may have been convinced by his own experts that adopting the 45 made sense (but OTL I suspect that it probably didn't occur any earlier than 1919). Here though he has more reasons to do it earlier

Secondly there may be instances where 93 and 96 are misplaced. This is because originally there was a rifle conversation as well, but I noticed I was making that mistake and dropped most of that in favor of dealing with pistol development. So yes Luger tooling, IIRC DWM made a grand total of four Luger tool sets period through the entire history of the gun. (And two of them haven't been built yet IIRC) Mauser meanwhile had 96 tooling built or contracted out for or just tooling was made in the dozens. Colt and FN and Kongsberg, and everyone else who got tooling to make the 1911 that's really up there there were a lot of tooling sets by the end of world war 1. Its one of those facets of industrial history.

Which brings us to the 1911, the trick with the magwell is actually something that had been done a couple of times in history. You only really see it with niche guns. The Makarov had a service version that would take the original single stack magazines of the design as well the version specific expanded capacity. It never went anywhere. Double stack 1911s basically in the modern day all competition guns but its one of those zany prototype things people did back then (including turning the 1911 in the twenties into a machine pistol). Some of these changes will be incorporated later.

The ambi controls yes, the double stack mag, no that will wait really until when Xian, the Chinese Army and Navy, goes to 9mm after the war for service pistols (and goes to double action), but the controls yes those will change in Xian's side arms (With looking into the future the Air Force and Police largely remaining with the 45 single stacks, we will get to why later). The Grip Safety on the 1911 was requested by the US Cavalry because they liked it on the Luger. There will be mentions of the grip safety being pinned in place, and then in later domestic production runs it being one of the features that gets deleted to save time in favor of the manual safety on the frame

This also sets up for the adoption of a first generation submachine gun in 45 ACP (effectively a 45 acp version of the Lewis gun, which never went anywhere historically because Lewis was hated by Ordinance branch) and that will see some use later on, though as a specialist weapon (and getting into the trend of police usage of submachine guns during the interwar years) in the forthcoming years.

 

[ATP]

21 August 1917

He watched the electric bulb flicker. His thoughts were really elsewhere. When he'd been a cadet the Academy had made a point of showing them, the prospective corp of engineers, one of the brand new commercial power plants. It was a whole new concept back them. Electrical needing to be piped in from offsite had only become a thing really that decade. But there was more and more demand for electrical power, for bottled lightning, and it made more sense to have a big power plant somewhere... and that meant you could just wire houses to have electric lighting... and well not just houses. "And?" Allen shook his head to clear the cobwebs, and lifted his drink, "The Fukien clique doesn't have the money to run those ships, it doesn't matter."

"Sun has a navy now." The englishman remarked more emphasis on Navy, as if that changed things.

"So he's what going to turn to piracy? Or is going to run off to intern them in Japan. Sun does not have the money to man and pay for those ships. Those ships need maintenance, they've sat up in harbor for years now." and the lack of the use of the navy since 1915 made more sense now, "If the Fukien clique thought he did I think they seriously overestimate what the south's finances are." Not with the war on. "What you asking for, what has he possibly got?"

"He approached the Canton legation, British support in exchange for a declaration of war. You haven't heard anything about this?"

Allen sipped, the thought occured to him that Sun might have assumed he could potentially barter China's navy as an asset for the war... but that didn't add up the ships weren't really up to it... "He's a little late." It had been a little odd that Sun had been adamant about staying out of the war but it did make sense he wanted a little qui pro quo in exchange for going along, "Duan has the consent of parliament," How much strong arming he might have had to do for some seats was up in the air, but with the 'Research clique' and the 'communications clique' had certainly helped local down the finances side of things... if there was going to be any kind of problem it was going to be to the south. "No I haven't heard anything about this Percy." Besides of course the railway and the army, there was of course there were all the other things. The RPF had been a long time ago now, a long time, that had been a quick rustling, little more than a posse thrown together short term, part time at first... with the differences in how businesses differed between the countries, they needed to shift some things around, but they couldn't just copy Japan's model.

It was the matter that was more his focus, than... a bunch of rust buckets. That wasn't fair to the navy, but damn it, what good were they going to do anybody. "What do you think they'll do?"

"Go back to Duan or Feng, at least nominally." Someone had to pay the bills, and prestige was the main reason to even keep up a navy... Duan wasn't going to just write the expense off, and Feng ... well that was a harder question. "Get one of them to agree to abide by the constitution," per the agreement from... before the whole mess with Zhang Xun putting the toddler back on the throne... this year was insanity.

He remembered looking back after 1914 and thinking how insane that year had been, and 1917 had well blown it away....so for that if Powell wanted to be ambitious then let him.

"John Allen?"

"Sorry you going to tell me about your Parliamentarian?"

The conversation went that direction in name only. Percy couldn't tell him much so blustered on about social niceties, and so forth. Apparently the man was something of an academic, he probably would have gotten along well with Reinsch. The Minister could have done with another academic who was involved in official foreign service work or whatever... even Percy thought so. "You really can't tell me any more than that, come on Percy."

"There really isn't anything that comes to mind. Very fascinating ideas about the interplay of nations and the role geography has in shaping nations but what can I say beyond that." Mackinder didn't seem to have served in the army or navy. Percy probably would have mentioned that directly... but it also made sense the English Army, the actual British Army while larger than its American counterpart had still been small, and the Royal Navy had devoured the bulk of British spending on defense.

--
The gradual modifications to uniforms, and their manufacture had been simple enough. Dress uniforms were hand fitted for officers and some utility uniforms had Chinese sleeve work which had some practical utility in the field, but it wasn't standard. The true utilitarian changes to the uniforms had begun with changes to the shoulders in 1913, no epaulets. Then changes to the stiching for machine needles to deal with wear and tear in the field triple aught needle work to shore up sleeves, and gussets. Larger pockets, and more pockets, four on the chest. It went on like that , and it went both ways, the Army's dress jacket had turned into the preferred business jacket, slim fit, large pockets, but as much that Europe wasn't exporting as much in fashion these days.

Those manufacturing tasks had been picked up by clothing shops with machine tooling otherwise meant to produce men's wear for the states. It was part of the reason they hadn't considered going for anything in different colors until Cullen had slipped in that the Gendarmes pattern uniforms while identical in cut were to be in black.

"Tch, the navy? What good are those bastards." Cole snorted pulling a handful of six and half spitzers for his scoped rifle, and adjusted the position of his legs feeding them into the internal magazine. He cocked his head towards the piece of wire strung sheet metal, "What do you make that twenty twenty five mile winds."

Allen looked over, "Closer to twenty five," He replied looking at the movement of the trees bending under the western wind.

The hundred twenty three grain spitzer had more of a crack than the thunderclap of a larger 200 gr eight mill. There was a chime as the piece of steel was rattled at eight hundred yards the far right edge having taken the impact right before the wind gusted.

"So what do you think the doc is going to do?"

Allen shrugged, he still didn't think Sun had the money to actually keep the ships up, but that could be why he was ferretting around for British support, "What do you think?"

"He might follow everyone else's recent example, say Canton is independent."

"That's a thought." Allen replied. It might even make things simpler.

Cole eased the bolt back on the rifle, "British money, with the way Duan is accusing him of silver dollars coming from Kaiser Bill?"

He thought back to his comment at the beginning of the year, and then to the conversations in spring. "I would have thought he'd have been taking money from the Japanese. Something like the loans Qirui is taking from Mister Nishihara. The notion it might be German money," It was possible, "It might explain Sun Yat-Sen's opposition to declaring war." Or not. China was a big country. Sun taking the navy and running south put a lot of space between him and Peking... a navy was always going to be pricier than an army... the sea tried a lot harder to kill a fella.

Regardless of who his foreign backers were that kind of money meant he'd be able to pay for troops, and weapons. At the very least he'd be able to carve a niche out in the south. How much, that was the question.

The rifle shouldered as the wind died back down, "On the other hand it could be bullshit to try and erode the support Sun has in the national assembly." That seemed a bit more likely, but stranger things had happened.

"Are you the slightest bit worried about this?"

"Naw, I reckon that's your job. Big stuff is your job brother John, I'll do the detail work" He rang the plate again.
--
They had filed back in the study, short Elliot Kemper and young Carter, "Now." The Texan rumbled, "Say he does say Canton is independent, what then, you can't hold a city with just ships."

Which meant it would probably only last until one of the warlords down south got tired of him, and muscled him out of the rich port city. "Then of course he'll," Presumably he meant Duan, but it wasn't clear, who Cullen meant, "say something about the 1912 constitution to placate the navy." Or whoever else wanted to cling to the document written after the Fall of the Qing publicly. It hadn't been worth the paper it had been written on, and it had never really had much in the way of legal standing before Yuan Shikai had tossed it into the trash.

They continued through the bookshelf lined room, and the Texan blew a breath out, "I suppose they'd have a better point if they'd written the damned thing after they'd toppled the Qing," Or at least something they could claim had actually succeeded the provisional constitution, "So as to say it was what they were fighting for."

Allen was tall, but Bill had almost half a foot of height over him. "What is that?" He asked finally. He had originally thought it was a 1911 but now that he was beside the other man it was clearly not.

"Oh, yeah me and Sam," The other Georgian tossed a look at the two taller men, "took another look at Lewis's idea. The open bolt idea," He shrugged noncommittally, "If it was automatic then you could excuse the weight, because it'd need to be. I was nearly in favor to scrap the whole idea. Fifteen rounds though." He whistled, "This is provisionally mind you the P.45/15. We took Lewis's mag idea," Sam snorted at the 'we', the Texan was using "and built a Browning for it." The gun had a strangle toggle where the magazine release button was on his model 1911. Seeing his look, "Yeah, we took Lewis's magazine release and rotated it ninety degrees to make it ambidextrous. If you look at the magazines you can see where it locks in as well," That more or less confirmed to him that Bill planned to have a second pistol whenever he could needle Griswold into it. "It'll actually take with the way we did the magazine well standard 1911 magazines, but they do wobble in the well."

The gun would probably fit his hands well enough, but it would be too large for most men. The 1911 with its single stack magazine was quite ideal in that respect, though some people needed time to adjust to the sights. It was increasing in popularity over its only real rival the Mauser 96. There were still a number of various revolvers used, but they, and handful of other semi automatic pistols were steadily falling behind. With it nearly impossible to get guns from Europe though even the Broomhandle was losing ground to the 1911 pattern pistols now being produced domestically. The Lugers remained popular but harder to get than the the Mauser pistol.

"The swiss have a set of tooling for that," Cole remarked, handling the pistol, "I saw it when I was looking after our office out there, I think they're the only other ones with a set outside of Germany. Mausers, Tsingtao's arsenal has the tooling to make copies of the 96," and they probably weren't the only ones. Certainly Spain and Italy had tooling if not one of the other arsenals in China.

Sam took the large frame automatic from Cole, "I've been talking shop with Yan's chief machinist, he's worked up a forty five caliber one that runs." To forestall questions, "Its hand made, lovely vine engraving." He made a bunch of squiggly winding motions with his left trigger finger. Before the war had broken out one of the 1906 batch Luger trials pistols had been given to Griswold from DWM's representative on account of their existing friendship with Paul Mauser and the licensing of his rifles. Serial no 5 was in Sam's reference case, but they'd never even considered production of it given that in 1913 there bloody well hadn't been a point... and in 1914 Belgium had been occupied and FN had needed hard cash and had the Browning patents for everything under the sun. That technically had made them beholden to FN's agreement of noncompetition for those patents for pistols in the United States or Canada but they hadn't been aiming to compete with Colt anyway.
--
Notes: A couple of things, firstly it is a little ahistorical that Shansi Machine Bureau / Taiyuan Arsenal would be working on the 96 45ACP this early. Hence the implication here that it is a tool room prototype.

Yan Xishan for whatever reason made the decision to adopt and standardize on 45ACP whether he believed in stopping power or whatever (which I doubt since I've seen pictures of him carrying what appears to be a colt 1903 the 'pocket hammerless'), he authorized the production of both pistols and submachine guns (including Thompsons) in Taiyuan in the late twenties. It is possible that Yan (as indicated here) had already made that decision, and he may have been convinced by his own experts that adopting the 45 made sense (but OTL I suspect that it probably didn't occur any earlier than 1919). Here though he has more reasons to do it earlier

Secondly there may be instances where 93 and 96 are misplaced. This is because originally there was a rifle conversation as well, but I noticed I was making that mistake and dropped most of that in favor of dealing with pistol development. So yes Luger tooling, IIRC DWM made a grand total of four Luger tool sets period through the entire history of the gun. (And two of them haven't been built yet IIRC) Mauser meanwhile had 96 tooling built or contracted out for or just tooling was made in the dozens. Colt and FN and Kongsberg, and everyone else who got tooling to make the 1911 that's really up there there were a lot of tooling sets by the end of world war 1. Its one of those facets of industrial history.

Which brings us to the 1911, the trick with the magwell is actually something that had been done a couple of times in history. You only really see it with niche guns. The Makarov had a service version that would take the original single stack magazines of the design as well the version specific expanded capacity. It never went anywhere. Double stack 1911s basically in the modern day all competition guns but its one of those zany prototype things people did back then (including turning the 1911 in the twenties into a machine pistol). Some of these changes will be incorporated later.

The ambi controls yes, the double stack mag, no that will wait really until when Xian, the Chinese Army and Navy, goes to 9mm after the war for service pistols (and goes to double action), but the controls yes those will change in Xian's side arms (With looking into the future the Air Force and Police largely remaining with the 45 single stacks, we will get to why later). The Grip Safety on the 1911 was requested by the US Cavalry because they liked it on the Luger. There will be mentions of the grip safety being pinned in place, and then in later domestic production runs it being one of the features that gets deleted to save time in favor of the manual safety on the frame

This also sets up for the adoption of a first generation submachine gun in 45 ACP (effectively a 45 acp version of the Lewis gun, which never went anywhere historically because Lewis was hated by Ordinance branch) and that will see some use later on, though as a specialist weapon (and getting into the trend of police usage of submachine guns during the interwar years) in the forthcoming years.

Click to shrink...

About Mauser - dunno if it was 96 or not,but one pistol with bigger magazine was used as mini-pistol machine,becouse it could fire on full auto.
Dunno again,why nobody used that idea/pistols turned into pistol machines/

 

[Imperator Pax]

About Mauser - dunno if it was 96 or not,but one pistol with bigger magazine was used as mini-pistol machine,becouse it could fire on full auto.
Dunno again,why nobody used that idea/pistols turned into pistol machines/

Click to shrink...

Thats the Schnellfeur which is a 96 variant that Mauser produced as a factory... after I think Astra was the first spanish firm to start doing them (The 96's design was passed around so much, most of the manufacturers who kept using them sold machine pistol versions in the interwar period, so there was Astra, I think there is another spanish firm that was making them that starts with a U, Hermanos, Mauser decided to finally commit to it as a variant of the Model 1930, and during the late twenties and thirties China had arsenals begin making domestic copies typically off of the astra pattern.even though they were typically given a mauser banner. They were popular, in the interwar years, then they kind of go away, probably due to expense, even though production seems to have continued into the early forties at least. [probably again as an expense and skill in machining versus, bolt action rifles being relatively inexpensive and providing more range]

 

[ATP]

Thats the Schnellfeur which is a 96 variant that Mauser produced as a factory... after I think Astra was the first spanish firm to start doing them (The 96's design was passed around so much, most of the manufacturers who kept using them sold machine pistol versions in the interwar period, so there was Astra, I think there is another spanish firm that was making them that starts with a U, Hermanos, Mauser decided to finally commit to it as a variant of the Model 1930, and during the late twenties and thirties China had arsenals begin making domestic copies typically off of the astra pattern.even though they were typically given a mauser banner. They were popular, in the interwar years, then they kind of go away, probably due to expense, even though production seems to have continued into the early forties at least. [probably again as an expense and skill in machining versus, bolt action rifles being relatively inexpensive and providing more range]

Click to shrink...

So,it was not bad,only too costly ?
P.S in one polish memories i read,somebody use one in 1914 fighting russians.

 

[Imperator Pax]

So,it was not bad,only too costly ?

Click to shrink...

The 96 was a very early semi-auto pistol, had a lot of machine operations, and it was originally designed for a fixed internal magazine. It was just too expensive too manufacture, too complex really. As a design it was the first commercially successful semi-automatic pistol by the interwar years its still relatively successful on international market but by 1930 you start to see mature 1st generation SMGs the updated MP18s that use better magazines that hold more ammo and they're just more practical specialist weapons for basically the same cost. Thats without even touching on later 'second generation' submachine guns that are cheaper (MP40, PPS43, M3) and yeah the people who have and continue to use the Broomhandle do so because its what they have. If you are a partisan or police officer. The Spanish (Astra) broomhandles remained in police service until like the early seventies in some areas because there was no point in replacement until later [and apparently per Wikipedia Brazil continued to modernize their Broomhandle in 1970 with new mags and what not]

Per wikipedia:

PASAM machine pistol

The Brazilian government bought five-hundred 7.63mm M1932 Schnellfeuer machine pistols for the Policia Militar do Distrito Federal (Portuguese: "Federal District Military Police") during the mid-1930s. The PASAM (pistola automática semi-automática Mauser,[31]​ or "semi-automatic / automatic Mauser pistol") used the M1932 as its base but made a few alterations. The controls were the same as the standard model, except the markings were in Portuguese. The selector switch (found on the left side, above the trigger guard) was marked N for normal ("average", or semi-automatic) and R for rápido ("rapid", or fully automatic). The safety control lever (found to the left of the hammer) was marked S for seguro ("safe") and F for fogo ("fire').[33]​ It was used with Brazilian State Military Police (Polícia Militar) forces in the 1980s. They preferred to use it as a semi-automatic carbine and reserved its full-auto setting for emergencies due to its recoil and muzzle-climb.[33]​
In 1970, the Policia Militar do Rio de Janeiro (PMRJ) asked the services of Jener Damau Arroyo, a Spanish-born gunsmith, to make modifications on their PASAMs in order to improve their handling. The first modification (PASAM MOD-1), of which 101 were modified, received a metal frame extension welded to the magazine housing. It was fitted with a metal forward grip well ahead of the gun under the muzzle.[31]​ The original grip was left alone, making it compatible with the wooden holster/stock.[31]​ The second modification (PASAM MOD-2), involving 89 pistols, featured a similar frame extension, but the forward grip had wooden panels and was of a different shape. The pistol grip frame used thicker rectangular wooden grips and had a 1.5-foot (460 mm) "t-bar" metal shoulder stock welded to it. A metal frame attached to the receiver supported a rectangular wooden foregrip, taking pressure off the barrel. In both models the barrel was left free to enable its short recoil during firing. (Two hundred and ninety five PASAMs were left in the original condition).[31]​ The weapon took standard detachable 10-round box magazines,[33]​ although they can also take the extended 20- and 40-round magazines.[31]​

Click to shrink...

So I would say that as a pistol, or as a machine pistol it was fine, it was just superseded in frontline service with organizations who could afford newer designs

 

[Imperator Pax]

August 1917
The map traced the winding concourse from the west of them. Nature being contrasted with straight and level rail tracks. Mostly straight there were towns they needed to reach.

The Yellow River dominated north China. Xian and Zhengzhou were both south of the river creating a natural boundary line... one they had used against Bai Lang, and one that had played a part in how recent fighting near the latter had been shaped. The Yellow River was important to china, was important to them, it geographical fact, but the railroad also made canals no longer truly indispensable... well as a direct commercial artery anyway.

That was part of the reason Gansu's taxes had been put starting years ago on the rail car and sent to peking. Shensi, and Shansi, Kansu, beyond out to Sinkiang the rail ran. Bai Lang had travelled overland being harassed and driven ever westward, and that deepened their own relationship with Gansu's hui.

It wasn't enough to completely silence the anti foreign voices in the community, but it didn't need to be. The fighting in Szechwan between Gansu's independent brigades had picked up, and while Old Man Ma had treated them to lamb soup that the old man was really dancing around the issues that were going on in Peking. Cao Kun had been pretty up front as well that ... there were divisive voices within the Beiyang clique over what to do. The provincial governors association was dividing up into regional blocks running north to south. The premier and the president head up rival factions.

He turned away from the map, and regarded the IBM machines, and their punch cards. "Are we auditing?" Not that there wasn't anything... wrong per se with the abacus most Chinese accountants still used... just that normally his thoughts trailed off.

"Nah," Sam replied, "Calculations. We're going to need to do a census," Griswold admitted to figuring they could also pen that in also for 1920, "I'm taking Rockhill's figures, and trying to estimate the population." There had been a recent publication out of New York citing that China's population was now about five hundred million, that was an estimate.

"And?"

Bill moved to grab the paper, "Says about thirty three million,"

"But that's the 1910 figure that Rockhill estimated, give or take." There was a break down based on that 1912 report for the provinces. Ten million people was a lot. Shensi had more people than New York state, and at the same time, the province was only smaller than Texas... "and that doesn't count that thats small and undeveloped by Chinese standards." Szechwan to the south came to mind in terms of population... it dwarfed them considerably, but was more fractured. He fished back for the paper, and stuck it to the side. "How about the oil?"

"if my arithmetic is right at 40000 barrels a day. Conservative math mind you, and that will be once I've got the derricks up." It had moved them up that Colonel McCulloch had sent some of his engineers over than risk the men get drafted to fight in Europe back in the spring, that gave him extra experts, but it would still only shave a few months off bringing the derricks online.... "It should help."

"Do more than that." Texas oil was cheap but the war was eating it up, the British had devoured that as well. This had been years in the making. The wells in the province had been slated for next year they were ahead of schedule because of necessity Suiyuan coming operational was good, it meant they could build more coal fired trains to use the coal they dug out of the ground anyway, and that would deal with the carriage shortage... or at least help address it.

"If we'd gone to war with Mexico," If Mexico had joined the Germans, "That would also be basically all of," Three quarters at least of, "The brits petroleum." When the war ended, demobilization would be... messy, everyone had been told that much... they had been sure of that a year ago.

"What about Ma?"

There was oil in Gansu as well. They had tentative sights plotted out. It had actually been where they had planned to start full scale drilling first. "Still waiting to figure out things with Ma Fuxing, and his clan." The Ma family, or at least they all said they were related when it seemed convenient, was enormous. "Then there is also Zhang, also." Zhang Guangjian who was the actual Dujun of the province of Gansu, even though the Ma had more influence on provincial events. "But They're both waiting to see whether ... what happens in Honan." Or probably more accurately... what a beiyang division, say the Fifth, going into Honan would do to neighboring Szechwan.
--
The paper this morning had talked about the fire in Szechwan. It was a mess. If they were lucky the fighting wouldn't come over their border... but they probably weren't that lucky.

Allen made no presumptions to actually being in charge of Kansu's brigades, even though he was relatively sure they'd at least listen if he was giving advice while there was shooting going on. He was certainly more comfortable with Yan Xishan's situation than the situation because Yan was unlikely to throw troops over the border... but the base line problems were similar. There were bandit problems that needed to be stamped out.

... and of course besides that human blight there was the risk of famine, and literal plague to consider as well. "And how are your Gansu Braves coming along?"

"There is some discussion whether, were we stick them in which division." Or if there would be so many recruits they'd end up putting a battalion of majority hui in each division. That was an idea. It was one idea out of several, and he wasn't entirely forward on forming homogenous units. Hui and Manchu were disproportionately, to overall population even without a fresh census, in army numbers at all ranks and ratings. Comments of turning iron to steel or iron and nails aside, there really was a need to deal with the bandit problem locally. "What do you need Percy?"

There was a pause, and the Englishman sighed. "The Prime Minister is very concerned about the condition of the war effort. The French are as you've surmised wholly spent as a fighting force and with these... 'bolshies' pressing down I don't suspect the Germans will have much to worry about on the Russian front for much longer either, its a mad house in St petersburg, and in Moscow. There are anarachists, socialists, marxists everywhere."

He grunted.

The US had laid an average of seven thousand miles of rail between between 1880 and 1890. A feat that had basically doubled the size of the national railway network, and of course a period that had among other things marked the zenith of 'narrow gauge'. It was a feat made possible, a record set because the US had had no panics in the market, and of course good strong leadership in the great firms, and the need to traffic large quantities of food stuffs.

But a railway couldn't go across the sea, and both Russia and France were dependent on foreign wheat shipments due to the loss of so much manpower. The men who were tied up to fight the war, the seizure of draft animals... and of course the corruption and profiteering that seemed rampant in the supply trains and administration. "Where is the connection point?"

"Omsk." Before he could speak up Percy continued, "You don't have to go that far, here these are our plans broadly but Omsk is the junction of where we want the projects to meet." The documents that went onto the table detailed the sort of agreement that were almost assured to make the French furious. The three hundred miles of rail in Western China in dugan country was nothing... that the British had footed the bill was useful. "Ayaguz to Semipalatisnk. Is the last leg of the journey, build that ninety miles, connect it to your existing line, and allow British material passage for the duration of the war."

He flipped through the bank notes. Then the other documents. There was already a russian built line in operation, rather than just being talked about from Novosibirsk to Semipalatisnk. He stacked the papers to one side, "MacKinder, your parliamentarian, will meet us on the other side?"

"Yes, He's in Russia already, is there a problem?"

"You didn't mention," And thus Allen had had to have some ask around to find out, "That MacKinder supported Chamberlain..." He glanced at the smaller man, and tilted his head with a raised eyebrow and a look, "certain policies on tariffs. The term imperial preference may ring a bell." There was a pause, and he flipped the papers turning his gaze back to them while Percy formulated a response..

He coughed, "Yes, well that was a long time ago, and I would remind you that when Chamberlain was speaking those words that your own United States had high tarrifs, and more importantly I think those changes and of course his views on industry, and that..." Percy were grasping for something, something to change the subject, "Equality between nations you will get on well I think we should put 1900 behind us."

The quotes reflected what he suspected was a mix of british policy objectives. Parliament had had its share of problems getting private industry interested in railway projects and never mind getting British rail firms to build anything quickly, British pay rates reflected that, the war's effects effected that ... and it hadn't escaped him that the language of the Russian agreement emphasized american mercantile interests in the line... such that Percy's superiors in the foreign office had probably sold this to Wilson, or Lansing at state as a 'generous expansion' on American enticements to the far east in Russia. Then of course there was the plain thinking that shoring up the Russians would help put some steel back in the french's spine. It was all patently British towards coalition building and trading off.

What Allen would not have contemplated were the knock on effects in the long term. How this would effect thing, how it would shape things in less than a year. A few hundred miles was business as usual so long as the crews knew what they were doing and there was dynamite, and earth movers. The political repercussions of the railway it would not shape what the world would eventually call the first world war it was too late for that but it would shape things of after.

Percy this looks find, but since we're on the subject, "What do you plan to do about Baku?"

"Vickers most likely, I should think. They did the work pre war. Oil is the next thing you know that."

He smirked. "It is that." Allen agreed.
--
Notes: Mackinder is a little more involved in the Foreign Service Office than OTL I don't think he actually visited Asiatic Russia for another year at least, but I can't say that with absolute certainty. The bigger change is of course is an earlier railway link.

Historically the linkage in the caspian to the trans siberian wasn't finished until later, to the Trans siberian by the Russian Military Railway (constructed by the whites) and it would be demolished by the soviets and then a new line doing the same thing would be constructed

That link will of course be important after the new year. In the mean time , the main focus is business and bandit hunting in the aftermath of Duan attempting to bring honan inline by force without the unanimous consent or support of the rest of the northern leadership.

 

[ATP]

August 1917
The map traced the winding concourse from the west of them. Nature being contrasted with straight and level rail tracks. Mostly straight there were towns they needed to reach.

The Yellow River dominated north China. Xian and Zhengzhou were both south of the river creating a natural boundary line... one they had used against Bai Lang, and one that had played a part in how recent fighting near the latter had been shaped. The Yellow River was important to china, was important to them, it geographical fact, but the railroad also made canals no longer truly indispensable... well as a direct commercial artery anyway.

That was part of the reason Gansu's taxes had been put starting years ago on the rail car and sent to peking. Shensi, and Shansi, Kansu, beyond out to Sinkiang the rail ran. Bai Lang had travelled overland being harassed and driven ever westward, and that deepened their own relationship with Gansu's hui.

It wasn't enough to completely silence the anti foreign voices in the community, but it didn't need to be. The fighting in Szechwan between Gansu's independent brigades had picked up, and while Old Man Ma had treated them to lamb soup that the old man was really dancing around the issues that were going on in Peking. Cao Kun had been pretty up front as well that ... there were divisive voices within the Beiyang clique over what to do. The provincial governors association was dividing up into regional blocks running north to south. The premier and the president head up rival factions.

He turned away from the map, and regarded the IBM machines, and their punch cards. "Are we auditing?" Not that there wasn't anything... wrong per se with the abacus most Chinese accountants still used... just that normally his thoughts trailed off.

"Nah," Sam replied, "Calculations. We're going to need to do a census," Griswold admitted to figuring they could also pen that in also for 1920, "I'm taking Rockhill's figures, and trying to estimate the population." There had been a recent publication out of New York citing that China's population was now about five hundred million, that was an estimate.

"And?"

Bill moved to grab the paper, "Says about thirty three million,"

"But that's the 1910 figure that Rockhill estimated, give or take." There was a break down based on that 1912 report for the provinces. Ten million people was a lot. Shensi had more people than New York state, and at the same time, the province was only smaller than Texas... "and that doesn't count that thats small and undeveloped by Chinese standards." Szechwan to the south came to mind in terms of population... it dwarfed them considerably, but was more fractured. He fished back for the paper, and stuck it to the side. "How about the oil?"

"if my arithmetic is right at 40000 barrels a day. Conservative math mind you, and that will be once I've got the derricks up." It had moved them up that Colonel McCulloch had sent some of his engineers over than risk the men get drafted to fight in Europe back in the spring, that gave him extra experts, but it would still only shave a few months off bringing the derricks online.... "It should help."

"Do more than that." Texas oil was cheap but the war was eating it up, the British had devoured that as well. This had been years in the making. The wells in the province had been slated for next year they were ahead of schedule because of necessity Suiyuan coming operational was good, it meant they could build more coal fired trains to use the coal they dug out of the ground anyway, and that would deal with the carriage shortage... or at least help address it.

"If we'd gone to war with Mexico," If Mexico had joined the Germans, "That would also be basically all of," Three quarters at least of, "The brits petroleum." When the war ended, demobilization would be... messy, everyone had been told that much... they had been sure of that a year ago.

"What about Ma?"

There was oil in Gansu as well. They had tentative sights plotted out. It had actually been where they had planned to start full scale drilling first. "Still waiting to figure out things with Ma Fuxing, and his clan." The Ma family, or at least they all said they were related when it seemed convenient, was enormous. "Then there is also Zhang, also." Zhang Guangjian who was the actual Dujun of the province of Gansu, even though the Ma had more influence on provincial events. "But They're both waiting to see whether ... what happens in Honan." Or probably more accurately... what a beiyang division, say the Fifth, going into Honan would do to neighboring Szechwan.
--
The paper this morning had talked about the fire in Szechwan. It was a mess. If they were lucky the fighting wouldn't come over their border... but they probably weren't that lucky.

Allen made no presumptions to actually being in charge of Kansu's brigades, even though he was relatively sure they'd at least listen if he was giving advice while there was shooting going on. He was certainly more comfortable with Yan Xishan's situation than the situation because Yan was unlikely to throw troops over the border... but the base line problems were similar. There were bandit problems that needed to be stamped out.

... and of course besides that human blight there was the risk of famine, and literal plague to consider as well. "And how are your Gansu Braves coming along?"

"There is some discussion whether, were we stick them in which division." Or if there would be so many recruits they'd end up putting a battalion of majority hui in each division. That was an idea. It was one idea out of several, and he wasn't entirely forward on forming homogenous units. Hui and Manchu were disproportionately, to overall population even without a fresh census, in army numbers at all ranks and ratings. Comments of turning iron to steel or iron and nails aside, there really was a need to deal with the bandit problem locally. "What do you need Percy?"

There was a pause, and the Englishman sighed. "The Prime Minister is very concerned about the condition of the war effort. The French are as you've surmised wholly spent as a fighting force and with these... 'bolshies' pressing down I don't suspect the Germans will have much to worry about on the Russian front for much longer either, its a mad house in St petersburg, and in Moscow. There are anarachists, socialists, marxists everywhere."

He grunted.

The US had laid an average of seven thousand miles of rail between between 1880 and 1890. A feat that had basically doubled the size of the national railway network, and of course a period that had among other things marked the zenith of 'narrow gauge'. It was a feat made possible, a record set because the US had had no panics in the market, and of course good strong leadership in the great firms, and the need to traffic large quantities of food stuffs.

But a railway couldn't go across the sea, and both Russia and France were dependent on foreign wheat shipments due to the loss of so much manpower. The men who were tied up to fight the war, the seizure of draft animals... and of course the corruption and profiteering that seemed rampant in the supply trains and administration. "Where is the connection point?"

"Omsk." Before he could speak up Percy continued, "You don't have to go that far, here these are our plans broadly but Omsk is the junction of where we want the projects to meet." The documents that went onto the table detailed the sort of agreement that were almost assured to make the French furious. The three hundred miles of rail in Western China in dugan country was nothing... that the British had footed the bill was useful. "Ayaguz to Semipalatisnk. Is the last leg of the journey, build that ninety miles, connect it to your existing line, and allow British material passage for the duration of the war."

He flipped through the bank notes. Then the other documents. There was already a russian built line in operation, rather than just being talked about from Novosibirsk to Semipalatisnk. He stacked the papers to one side, "MacKinder, your parliamentarian, will meet us on the other side?"

"Yes, He's in Russia already, is there a problem?"

"You didn't mention," And thus Allen had had to have some ask around to find out, "That MacKinder supported Chamberlain..." He glanced at the smaller man, and tilted his head with a raised eyebrow and a look, "certain policies on tariffs. The term imperial preference may ring a bell." There was a pause, and he flipped the papers turning his gaze back to them while Percy formulated a response..

He coughed, "Yes, well that was a long time ago, and I would remind you that when Chamberlain was speaking those words that your own United States had high tarrifs, and more importantly I think those changes and of course his views on industry, and that..." Percy were grasping for something, something to change the subject, "Equality between nations you will get on well I think we should put 1900 behind us."

The quotes reflected what he suspected was a mix of british policy objectives. Parliament had had its share of problems getting private industry interested in railway projects and never mind getting British rail firms to build anything quickly, British pay rates reflected that, the war's effects effected that ... and it hadn't escaped him that the language of the Russian agreement emphasized american mercantile interests in the line... such that Percy's superiors in the foreign office had probably sold this to Wilson, or Lansing at state as a 'generous expansion' on American enticements to the far east in Russia. Then of course there was the plain thinking that shoring up the Russians would help put some steel back in the french's spine. It was all patently British towards coalition building and trading off.

What Allen would not have contemplated were the knock on effects in the long term. How this would effect thing, how it would shape things in less than a year. A few hundred miles was business as usual so long as the crews knew what they were doing and there was dynamite, and earth movers. The political repercussions of the railway it would not shape what the world would eventually call the first world war it was too late for that but it would shape things of after.

Percy this looks find, but since we're on the subject, "What do you plan to do about Baku?"

"Vickers most likely, I should think. They did the work pre war. Oil is the next thing you know that."

He smirked. "It is that." Allen agreed.
--
Notes: Mackinder is a little more involved in the Foreign Service Office than OTL I don't think he actually visited Asiatic Russia for another year at least, but I can't say that with absolute certainty. The bigger change is of course is an earlier railway link.

Historically the linkage in the caspian to the trans siberian wasn't finished until later, to the Trans siberian by the Russian Military Railway (constructed by the whites) and it would be demolished by the soviets and then a new line doing the same thing would be constructed

That link will of course be important after the new year. In the mean time , the main focus is business and bandit hunting in the aftermath of Duan attempting to bring honan inline by force without the unanimous consent or support of the rest of the northern leadership.

Click to shrink...

Baku - there were many private oil wells there,which was more efficient then what soviet did next.Some polish inventor even planned to made undersea well.
But,soviet would take it anyway,so do not matter.

China - we do not knew how many of them die from spanish flu.But,unles USA,they at least do not use aspirin on them.Only drums and shamans,which at least do not made things worst.

Russia - USA mission for unknown reason was helping bolshewik there.Well,Wall Street send Trocky,so we knew what they did - BUT WHY ?
Only reasonable theory - kill Russia with communism before it could replace USA as 1th economy.

Vickers arleady made 40mm automatic gun/fot tdestroing torpedo boats/ which could be turned into AA.

Manchuria - they have oil there,which commies found after WW2.Your China could found it now.