Pittauro
Versed in the lewd.
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- Aug 25, 2017
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and we directly or indirectly enabled themI think Chrysalis and the Master did the lions share of the work there.
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and we directly or indirectly enabled themI think Chrysalis and the Master did the lions share of the work there.
Well, I still think that we need to focus on improving our Lore levels and action economy before investing into dealing with Discord.
it has already been proven, without a shadow of a doubt (at least to me), that a regrettable action will ALWAYS be worse than just killing someone.Aside from Wolf sacrament for edge and winter. (Given the choice for our scar doing our personal edge sacrament would be really risky and the risk of killing foals for our personal Winter is a real turn off. Maybe we'll get some better Name options but given the Colonel's belonging deal I'm not too hopeful besides the Wolf is cheap, easy and free.)
It was more lack of actions than fear of danger that had us delay again and again I think.We can finally do our personal secret histories sacrament. (Really should have started this a while back, dangers are lesser given our reroll and due to the value of Baldomare actions personal is probably better)
I suspect it's more likely we'll take Mareinette to Personal grail, and even more likely we'll take neither.We could combine our Grail and Moth personal sacraments. Once we get 4/4 grail (which is going to be a pain) we can forfill our personal sacrament with Rarity, Jade and some confident we have leashed. Then we can use that confident for our Moth personal sacrament. (Can't get the heirs sacrament anymore (real shame) and I think we'd prefer personal to our dear Lady in Wires sacrament)
obviously the greater part of the fault in what happened to Twilight is on the Master and on Chrysalis.Velvet should take responsibility for her own actions and let others take responsibility for their own. Don't dismiss others agency.
Besides Velvet may be an important piece on the board but she's no player yet.
it has already been proven, without a shadow of a doubt (at least to me), that a regrettable action will ALWAYS be worse than just killing someone.
By the wording, our personal grail sacrament is taking 3 of our closest friends, and brainwash them so they'll never betray us no matter what. I find it's a step too far for me.
I suspect it's more likely we'll take Mareinette to Personal grail, and even more likely we'll take neither.
By the wording, our personal grail sacrament is taking 3 of our closest friends, and brainwash them so they'll never betray us no matter what. I find it's a step too far for me.
I just wouldn't like to play a Velvet that's willing to do that to her closest friends. Even the leash, bad as it was, is at least temporary.
Even Rarity's current minion condition can be "removed" by teaching her Grail.
I can't bring myself to justify permanently brainwashing Velvet's closest (non-family) allies and friends.
I'd rather have her become a cannibal.
obviously the greater part of the fault in what happened to Twilight is on the Master and on Chrysalis.
We still made it possible for them to do it though. Our share of blame is smaller, but it's still there.
And considering Velvet just caused the death of the Master and leads the not-secret police, I'd argue she IS a player. Still a dark horse (pun!), but a player in truth now.
Other known players would be Celestia, Copper (a minor one), possibly Discord. Cadance is not quite there yet I think, and the Names explicitly are NOT players, not really.
...well, MAYBE Biedde's Edge Rival? That one might be, I suppose, but it still feels unlikely.
That's like saying that, in real life equivalent, if a system is set up to make corruption inherently easier and more rewarding, it's still those being corrupted and corrupting who are at fault.In the end every pony gets to pick of their own free will how to act. They don't have to listen to Evil and perform dark deeps. They don't have to listen and follow Paranoia's words and instead can overcome them.
not necessarily? In my opinion is more of a "makes bad actions worse" more than adding new ones. and someone, somewhere, will always pick the bad actions.Negaverse wise all Evil does is add an option which doesn't have to be picked.
and if they had those traits while also not having Paranoia that would STILL reduce problems worldwide more.
The real tragedy of the regrettable actions is not that they make the world a colder place it's how they do it. The world becomes a colder place because ponykind makes it so. All the wolves do is set a path, it's ponykind that chooses to walk it. The darkness, the cold, it is a curse ponykind brings upon themselves. And so history repeats itself once more.
That would be more convincing if Harmony wasn't being worded the exact same way.
Shining will never betray Cadence no matter what after what Cadence did with the power granted to her by Harmony via her Element did to him.
Technically speaking Cadence brainwashed Shinning for her own personal Love sacrament equivalent. Now I'm not saying that's a moral thing for her to do but narratively Velvet seems set to support such actions.
mh... I suppose the alternative interpretation is possible, but I find it more likely it's just a conventional "they'll love us forever and never go away" brainwashing option. Or, I suppose, a "remove the ability to stop loving us".As I mentioned before I don't quite agree with this interpretation.
Yes Rarity can be free from our influence, but it is personal sacrament that should be applicable for every case. Let's say we gathered 3 full time minions, what brainwashing them further will accomplish? It is entirely redundant at this point. They are already brainwashed to follow her.Thus Velvet making sure that they will never leave her is likely something else. Like binding their spirits to her so they can't die natural death. Or some kind of life sharing between each others. There are plenty of possibilities. I am not expert on CS rituals so I don't have a good guess at the moment, but we should not assume that Grail is restricted to mind control only. Perhaps the fact that we need four members can point to what ritual it may be. Another good indication of what ritual entail would be with whom Velvet will be willing to conduct it. If any family members can be included we can safely assume that it is nothing malevolent at least. I think Sacrament description mentions that Bird will tell us who is excluded from it so we will have additional info before attempting it.
possible. Indeed if we had recruited her conventionally maybe things could have gone differently. Same if we told the Master more.Interestingly I think deciding to tell cult about Twilight being useful only as Shining Armor's sister played a major role in cult treating her as a means to an end instead of recruitment target. Cause we had a option to introduce her as prospective member instead, but wanted to keep her to ourself. And not coming on expedition to rescue her personally of course. Well it all ended up with getting Master into position to kill him so perhaps it is not the worst outcome.
Here we go again...I see where your coming from but narratively I feel like your still dismissing the agency of others.
In the end every pony gets to pick of their own free will how to act. They don't have to listen to Evil and perform dark deeps. They don't have to listen and follow Paranoia's words and instead can overcome them.
Negaverse wise all Evil does is add an option which doesn't have to be picked.
Ponies can get teamwork traits that overcome Paranoia.
The real tragedy of the regrettable actions is not that they make the world a colder place it's how they do it. The world becomes a colder place because ponykind makes it so. All the wolves do is set a path, it's ponykind that chooses to walk it. The darkness, the cold, it is a curse ponykind brings upon themselves. And so history repeats itself once more.
That would be more convincing if Harmony wasn't being worded the exact same way.
Shining will never betray Cadence no matter what after what Cadence did with the power granted to her by Harmony via her Element did to him.
Technically speaking Cadence brainwashed Shinning for her own personal Love sacrament equivalent. Now I'm not saying that's a moral thing for her to do but narratively Velvet seems set to support such actions.
Princess Celestia's reaction]
[Amassed Virtues: "The Princess of the Sun: +1"]
[Amassed Miseries: "Rude Awakening: -1", "Canterlot Burns: -1"]
[Total dice modifier: + 1 - 1 - 1 = -1]
[Roll (1d6): 3 – 1 (total modifier) = 2]
7 or higher: "The Paragon of Harmony walks upon Equestria. None shall find her wanting."
6: "The morning sun comes, and the horrors of the night flee from its bright gaze."
5: "Bowed, but unbroken. Shaken, but still determined. The sun's light was warmer, before, but its light is still there."
4: "The clouds are too heavy, too numerous. The sun is still there, but we cannot reach it, and it can no longer reach us."
3: "Will the sun ever rise again? It might have forsaken us. It might just not care anymore."
2: "The sun blazes with wrath. Her will shall no longer be denied."
1: "Dawnbreaker has come. If the Moon will not rise, then the Sun will never set."
0 or lower: "The Sun was divided, and this is its wound."
Just want to point out that if it is a Watchman's Glass, which all descriptions of it so far have aligned with, it would actually be Lantern 6.We know now Celestia has a Lantern 7 Mirror, that could have likely awakened Luna (if not gently). And there WAS a chance of us convincing Celestia of letting us do it our way, by slowly teaching Selene.
When? I honestly don't remember either. Wrong she can be, even the knowledge of a Lantern Name has limits, but I don't think she's been anything less then truthful
That one really wasn't worth it, when I read the update preceding that I literally put down my phone to pray you guys didn't use one of our limited get out of jail cards because you were squeamish.I'm kind of unsure if destroying the door was worth it, in hindsight. I'm leaning no on consequences, and yes on "it would have taken us so long to climb otherwise that I think we couldn't afford that risk".
Counterpoint, Velvet's Grail realisation was a kind of mild control and her general psyche makes me believe it will be something mind rapey
That is the barest of silver linings dude and so far removed from what happened that I hesitate to even say its connected. Quester's greed fucked us there. (Could someone explain specifically why people didn't want Twilight to be part of the cult btw? As in what action could she not do as a Cult member)Well it all ended up with getting Master into position to kill him so perhaps it is not the worst outcome.
You know what the funky thing is? The Wolf-Divided may have existed before the SiS was struck down.Someone brought up the idea that idea that Harmony was the Sun in Splender or a piece of it reforged. This intrigues me cause in many ways Harmony seems to be the opposite of the Wolf Divided. Considering the Wolf is the wound created by the Sun in Splender's division it kind of makes sense that him reforged would be counter point. We don't have enough knowledge and I'm not an expert in the lore, but it one of the reasons I'm so interested in a host of guests. I doubt it'll have as great of an impact as the Wolf and really we don't have time to try and fully heal the wounds on the world either way, but I'm interested in seeing what happens.
Yeah agreed to be honest I think only killing the master was kind of worth it.That one really wasn't worth it, when I read the update preceding that I literally put down my phone to pray you guys didn't use one of our limited get out of jail cards because you were squeamish.
there's an argument that if you were "destined" to do something ,was it ever really your own choice in the first place?Tl;dr: The Wolves use Mind Control and Reality Warping to do their jobs, it isn't a choice. Shining wasn't brainwashed to love Cadance, but Velvet did use the Leash to make him propose.
I will not entertain the idea that the actions taken by the Wolf will prove to be anything but disastrous.
I include Soft Sweeps in this. But also recognize that there was no world where Velvet continued without doing that. That it is an uncertain tragedy in wait concerns me.
But the Wolf is not a tool to be used.
True, though close enough.Just want to point out that if it is a Watchman's Glass, which all descriptions of it so far have aligned with, it would actually be Lantern 6.
That one really wasn't worth it, when I read the update preceding that I literally put down my phone to pray you guys didn't use one of our limited get out of jail cards because you were squeamish.
"Yes, I ruined my friend's life. Yes, all she has asked of me now is to leave her alone. Yes, I would like to do better by her.
I'm willing to make an exception for Soft Sweeps because in her case we sort of used the wolf embers to power her. It's an unclean power source, but AS LONG AS IT'S CONTAINED it's fine-ish.
Of course as we do more regrettable actions the wolf is strengthened, and so is the corruption inside Soft Sweeps. It's been all but confirmed that at max corruption SHE will be the last wolf child, the only wolf daughter.
That said, all wolf actions will end up being disastrous. Sometimes its worth taking them, but only because the alternative is even potentially worse... Or, more likely, more inconvenient to us
Usually when it comes to thinks most personal to here.When? I honestly don't remember either. Wrong she can be, even the knowledge of a Lantern Name has limits, but I don't think she's been anything less then truthful
Harmony seemed to have contained it pretty well.It is not contained. It cannot be contained.
The Manus itself could not contain The Wolf. The reason it remained was because it sought pain and its own end, and where it was was how it could do that.
Soft Sweeps is....
Evil, Paranoia, and the youngest, Ash, will do their work. The capacity and understanding once more of an evil. The distrust inherent between others. The fear and suffering of what is out there, no longer hidden in the dark. They will do their work and the world will suffer for it.
Soft Sweeps will reap the harvest of their work.
She wears the face of a friend. She speaks and the uncertain rumblings that the people there felt responds. Because of course it does. Her brothers planted that worry, that fear, that uncertainty and despair.
Tell me. Velvet saw in the dim distance how Windy Flakes felt the touch from the wolf as it brushed by Winter. That from someone attuned to see.
What happens when a wolf wears the face of a friend? When they fan the embers and uncertainty in the hearts of others?
Soft Sweeps is galvanizing the people she meets. Those who are susceptible to the despair and the agony.
Where does that end?
It is not contained.
The problem with doing anything to Twilight is that, from what I recall, the healing rituals largely require willing targets. Or at least someone you can make remain very still and not do anything while you work strange , delicate, and eldritch magics on them that warp their minds and bodies.
We're also largely relying on her not actually knowing anything concrete and doing anything funny would ruin that. Well, unless we're happy sticking her in the basement forever so she can't tell on us, or just plain killing her.
The Incision might not work but the Redemption WILL and I think it was what Velvet was going to offer Twilight if she reached the third threshold in this:I'm also unsure if what did happen with Twilight would count as something those rituals would work on.
The reason we couldn't reach it is because Mareinette chomped +20 from our grail influence that turn. But that is just one more reason to kill her.[Grieving, neglected, angry. Breakpoints, 50/70/100/120/150]
[Roll: 24 + 14 (Diplomacy, Grail doubled) + 30 (GRAIL bonus, doubled) + 20 ("An Urgency of Appetite") = 88]
[Second threshold reached]
<50: Disastrously bad.
50: You "only" made things worse.
70: She came, and then she spoke, and that was it.
100: An impossible suggestion.
120: ???
150: ???
The idea is her not knowing it was Velvet, at least not in the moment. Also I doubt she has the will to resist now, fixing the horn first should make her trust Mareinette, then if the Incision is confirmed to work we ask her if she would like to be relieved of some of her burdens.The problem with doing anything to Twilight is that, from what I recall, the healing rituals largely require willing targets. Or at least someone you can make remain very still and not do anything while you work strange , delicate, and eldritch magics on them that warp their minds and bodies.
We're also largely relying on her not actually knowing anything concrete and doing anything funny would ruin that. Well, unless we're happy sticking her in the basement forever so she can't tell on us, or just plain killing her.
Maybe we should let Twilight be for a bit considering the massive amount of stuff we need to do, the fact she wants nothing to do with us and the fact the most of our interventions in her life have made it worse. She is stable and we used one of the very valuable wedding opportunities to help her so maybe we should now try to focus on more pressing issues.
You know what the funky thing is? The Wolf-Divided may have existed before the SiS was struck down.
He's got Wolf iconography, there are sites dedicated to some unborn Wolf-God and in the histories the Sun rises again he doesn't rise as the Golden God-King but something altogether more bloody, his light red and the honor he held to diminished.
But the majority of that is BoH lore soooooooooo
Also for the Harmony slandering: Shining Armor CHOSE to be with Cadance that is why he is Love's Chosen, the only mind control involved in their relationship was Velvet pulling on the leash to make him propose THAT is the only brainwashing that happened.
That's like saying that, in real life equivalent, if a system is set up to make corruption inherently easier and more rewarding, it's still those being corrupted and corrupting who are at fault.
which is true, but it's also completely missing the point
If you want to make things better long term, you need to deal with the incentive structure of the organization/society you're talking about. Trusting in the inherent goodness of people is just foolish if you don't make sure that such good behaviour is rewarded and incentivized, at least on a large scale.
For him to be her Chosen he needs to choose her too, their Love is mutual not one sided, if it was Grail instead of Harmony it would fit the power you described but it isn't so it doesn't apply.False, like really really false.
Cadence made Shinning her chosen, he's literally called loves chosen.
The difference between the two is that one is where a power that manipulates peoples feelings for them is used to ensure they can never leave and betray them. And the other is where a power that manipulates peoples feelings for them is used to ensure they can never leave and betray them.
We literally already had this conversation with Cadence about her brainwashing Shinning on the topic of him not being able to say no.
The issue was a social one based on her Princess title, where Cadance worried Shining Armor would do anything she wanted because she is a Princess, including marrying her."I want to marry him, Velvet. I really, really want to. And not just for a party, or a ceremony, or a ritual, or whatever else that means. I just want to finally be able to look him in the eyes, and promise him that I will be with him forever. And… and I want him to finally do the same to me as well. Not because I want to do it in front of the whole world, but because I want us to do it from the bottom of our hearts. No more secret relationships, no more pushing back… no more hesitating."
"There, there… go on dear…"
"But every time I think about it, I also… it's not that I get scared? I trust him, I love him, but I still think that… that if I do it, it will be wrong?"
"What do you mean wrong, Cadance? What could possibly be wrong about two ponies who love each other getting married?"
"Because I am a Princess, Velvet. And… and I know it probably sounds silly, or dumb, or even stupid. But I think that… If I propose to Shining, will he accept it because he loves me? Or because I am a Princess, and a proposal from me is as good as an order form an alicorn?"
For now, I think Soft Sweep's therapy group will remain a mostly normal and constructive group, albeit one with subconscious undertones of agony and despair. Soft Sweeps herself is probably similar, being the same person she always was aside from the Wolves occasionally whispering in the back of her head.It is not contained. It cannot be contained.
The Manus itself could not contain The Wolf. The reason it remained was because it sought pain and its own end, and where it was was how it could do that.
Soft Sweeps is....
Evil, Paranoia, and the youngest, Ash, will do their work. The capacity and understanding once more of an evil. The distrust inherent between others. The fear and suffering of what is out there, no longer hidden in the dark. They will do their work and the world will suffer for it.
Soft Sweeps will reap the harvest of their work.
She wears the face of a friend. She speaks and the uncertain rumblings that the people there felt responds. Because of course it does. Her brothers planted that worry, that fear, that uncertainty and despair.
Tell me. Velvet saw in the dim distance how Windy Flakes felt the touch from the wolf as it brushed by Winter. That from someone attuned to see.
What happens when a wolf wears the face of a friend? When they fan the embers and uncertainty in the hearts of others?
Soft Sweeps is galvanizing the people she meets. Those who are susceptible to the despair and the agony.
Where does that end?
It is not contained.