Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[DelightedOne]

Hey, don't do the Egg Unhatching dirty like that! It was the SiS who decided that the Sun should be unmerciful

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I would never say anything bad about the Egg, if it were up to me I would make it the Sun that returns in the Second Dawn... but Harmony literally has Kindness as an Element, you can't top that.

 

[spiderhellian]

I know the theories floating around say Harmony was made by/of the Hours but... It doesn't feel like it is. What if the Hours and gods have nothing to do with Harmony?

The first thing that comes to mind that supports this idea is Harmony not having a real presence in the Mansus, sure the Dreamland are trying to subvert the Mansus but why would it need to do that if it comes from an Hour? Shouldn't it know how to climb or get in by other means?

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Always love speculating about Harmony. It's definitely an idea, and it does fit with how long it took for things to go from the Forge's act to the deal with the Outsiders.

At the same time, we've had the Mansus-Wake correspondence driven home so many times that it feels weird that there would be something in the Wake that totally lacks Mansus representation.

(This is why I sometimes think Harmony is the Wake representation of the Glory itself…)

 

[Greymere]

I would never say anything bad about the Egg, if it were up to me I would make it the Sun that returns in the Second Dawn... but Harmony literally has Kindness as an Element, you can't top that.

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You can in BoH, technically! Or at least something very much like the Egg and not much at all like the SiS. Though I don't think the Egg Unhatching was at all vampiric like the new Red Sun would be (but only a little bit).

 

[Pittauro]

Absolutely not, wtf Pitt?

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I'm actually not in favour of it, but it IS an option... well, maybe. I was imagining she might ask for a prisoner as either gift 2 or 3, basically. Probably 3, if Bird believed that to be the one we'd likely refuse.

Just like her sacrament is an option.

I was also thinking of that omake where Copper was captured by her.

Again, I'm actually against it. But I'm sure someone will propose it.

The rape arguing before and now this, holy shit you are way too cavalier about this stuff. You do know what Marinette is liable to do to her yeah? And you still want to give Copper to her? Just use her for the Lantern Sacrament if you're that hell bent on giving Copper a fate worse then death.

Or better yet give her a clean and merciful end.

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I'm not in favour of giving her Mareinette, I mostly mentioned the possibility for completeness' sake.

I agree she doesn't deserve it. Hell, I'm still kinda hoping for a chance to talk things out, though I'm not sure I'm willing to risk it AND that it would work out even if we did.

(on a side note I'm actually not sure how I feel about Windy. We don't KNOW anything certain about him. He MIGHT be a serial killer, but then again maybe not. He MIGHT have started to work towards wolf disaster, but then again, maybe we're still in time to stop him "peacefully".

And about the rape, my argument was and has always been that it was a shitty choice, but not necessarily worse than what we ended up picking (or, really, any of the other options. They were ALL shitty in different ways, and it depends on how you judge them which one was worse), and YES, that if I judge by the pain an action causes it would have been worse if Cadance was aware of it (though again you could argue she'd have a right to know EVEN if it makes her miserable... but then of course we'd have no way to inform her)

Side note, I'm actually in favor of Baldomare lantern sacrament over our personal one. WHEN POSSIBLE I'd rather avoid "evil" acts, and preferably even the morally questionable ones.

I'd be fine-ish with sacrificing someone we already mean to kill, but even so I'd rather avoid it.

I prefer Baldomare Lantern over personal Lantern because of that.

I'll PROBABLY prefer Biedde Edge over personal edge (we COULD in theory just go and kill Comet after all, if we really wanted the Sacrament. Get an influence and we PROBABLY could not lose. (I say probably because we haven't seen Biedde's yet).

I actually prefer Mareinette Grail (implied to be cannibalism) over Personal Grail (implied to be heavy and permanent brainwashing), but I also heavily dislike both.

And I'm starting to reconsider personal winter (a painless death to 3 admittedly (likely) innocent ponies), though I'm hoping we get a chance at a less questionable Winter sacrament.

Without the Hours and with the Mansus damaged the Wake would be broken too, ponykind would have to learn how to survive in a world that wasn't made to work without gods... so they made their own. From their wishes, hopes and dreams came a bright light(a kind one, kinder than any Sun) that would help the world heal and care for it. The Pillars planting the Seed that would grow into the Tree of Harmony fits that.

But due to its unorthodox creation it took a long time for Harmony to act properly in the Wake, that is why ponies had to move the sun and the moon, change the seasons, control the weather and basically maintain everything in the world alone. Celestia and Luna most likely only move the sun and the moon because the unicorns that did it literally lost their magic compared to the earth ponies and pegasi who did not suffer that much.

I'm not sure if there wasn't any use of the lores at Harmony's birth but it definitely doesn't use them, maybe because it was made to substitute the old order of the world? But i'm pretty sure it knows about them at least, even if it can't/won't use them.

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That would imply that Harmony is a nascent Hour. Probably the first of a new kind, just like there's Hours from Light that came from Glory, or Hours from Blood that came from sacrifice, and Hours from Flesh that were once mortals.

 

[Iustus Vitea]

Hey, don't do the Egg Unhatching dirty like that! It was the SiS who decided that the Sun should be unmerciful

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The Egg isn't exactly clean. Beyond being a God-from-Stone and so part of the pantheon that oppressed humans in the ending where it is brought back it comes as a false red sun which demands blood sacrifices. The SiS is better in comparison, also we know the rise of an Hour changes the Lores so why not the fall too? Who knows maybe once unmercifulness was a small part of Lantern but with SiS gone and the Watchman as the primary Lantern Hour things have changed.

 

[Greymere]

The Egg isn't exactly clean. Beyond being a God-from-Stone and so part of the pantheon that oppressed humans in the ending where it is brought back it comes as a false red sun which demands blood sacrifices. The SiS is better in comparison, also we know the rise of an Hour changes the Lores so why not the fall too? Who knows maybe once unmercifulness was a small part of Lantern but with SiS gone and the Watchman as the primary Lantern Hour things have changed.

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"Oppressed humans" is a funny way of saying "didn't want them in the Mansus and otherwise dgaf". And that is an extremely uncharitable interpretation of the Red Sun, considering that every single ending it's involved in portrays it in a positive light and is explicitly named as a kinder sun.

Edit: It also ignores that the blood sacrifice thing is pretty strongly implied to be mutual. It takes a very small amount of blood from humanity, and in turn it sheds it's own blood to protect them.

 

[spiderhellian]

I get so confused whenever the conversation brings in Book of Hours lore

 

[Pittauro]

I still stand by my vote that it was better to let Master possess us. Just think how ruthlessly efficient Velvet would have been. And getting her family killed would have been a game over so they would be relatively safe from Master, likely used as leverage to have Velvet do what Master wish. In most others matters Master would need to play Velvet's role ,i.e. act as she would have acted and periodically sacrificing a pony or two for ritual is not much worse than creating Ash Wastes.

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I lean towards it being a "noble" but stupid course of action, as we had no way of knowing just what the Master would do with this.

To start with, that would have revealed Selene. and we'd be giving the Master some of our APs to do who knows what.

Celestia trying to break into Dream realm would definitely speed up her discovering Lores.

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I don't think she can. It seems like a Luna-only ability. And if she managed to enter the Mansus somehow, which again I'm not sure she'd be able to do on her own... Well, then she still has to learn everything about it on her own.

"Oppressed humans" is a funny way of saying "didn't want them in the Mansus and otherwise dgaf". And that is an extremely uncharitable interpretation of the Red Sun, considering that every single ending it's involved in portrays it in a positive light and is explicitly named as a kinder sun.

Edit: It also ignores that the blood sacrifice thing is implied to be mutual. It takes a very small amount of blood from humanity, and in turn it sheds it's own blood to protect them.

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unwelcome in the mansus kinda means "they're not the main species", doesn't it?

Actually, were the Carapace Cross welcome in the mansus BEFORE Humans forced their way in? I think they were implied to be the previous dominating species (somewhat implied to be the equivalent of dinosaurs I think?)

 

[DelightedOne]

At the same time, we've had the Mansus-Wake correspondence driven home so many times that it feels weird that there would be something in the Wake that totally lacks Mansus representation.

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That can be explained by one of my previous rants about Harmony. In it I suggest that Harmony is not reflected in the Mansus because it is not in the Wake yet.
There is also the viewpoint that the Dreamlands trying to take over the Mansus is the representation of Harmony, but due to what it is trying to accomplish it is really, really, really small.

That would imply that Harmony is a nascent Hour. Probably the first of a new kind, just like there's Hours from Light that came from Glory, or Hours from Blood that came from sacrifice, and Hours from Flesh that were once mortals.

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That is possible but it doesn't feel right, you know.
Harmony's nature is unlike any of the other Hours and while it being a new kind could explain its existence I think that it is something new, that is why no one understands Harmony like the lores and why it is trying to change the Mansus, it is new, special, unique... It is not part of the World like the Hours so it has to work harder and progress slower than them.

 

[Greymere]

Actually, were the Carapace Cross welcome in the mansus BEFORE Humans forced their way in? I think they were implied to be the previous dominating species (somewhat implied to be the equivalent of dinosaurs I think?)

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Less the previous dominating species and more human precursors. As in, at some point, a large chunk (but not all) of the Carapace Cross did something to transform themselves into humans. I've seen some speculation that the collective shearing might have been what birthed the Moth (who, as a reminder, is From-Blood), but that's mostly just WMG.

 

[Greymere]

That is possible but it doesn't feel right, you know.
Harmony's nature is unlike any of the other Hours and while it being a new kind could explain its existence I think that it is something new, that is why no one understands Harmony like the lores and why it is trying to change the Mansus, it is new, special, unique... It is not part of the World like the Hours so it has to work harder and progress slower than them.

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I gotta be honest, it mostly feels like you just really don't want Harmony to interact with the CS half of the fusion universe rather than there being evidence of Harmony being something Completely Different vs. a new type of Hour or something.

 

[angelsadvocate666]

Harmony was at least present and powerful enough to contest the Colonel over Comet. Or Kindness was at any rate, if the Elements can be meaningfully seperated from the greater whole.

 

[Pittauro]

I gotta be honest, it mostly feels like you just really don't want Harmony to interact with the CS half of the fusion rather than there being evidence of Harmony being something Completely Different vs. a new type of Hour or something.

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also it just...

Glory and Hours are foundational to the setting. We know NEW types of Hours can come to exist, that things in the Mansus CAN change, and even change A LOT, as the Lithomachy proves.

The change from Hours to Harmony doesn't feel to me more significant than the change from gods from Stone to Gods from Light, Flesh and Blood.

Harmony makes more sense as a nascent Hour, or in any case the result of the actions of previous Hours, that as something coming out of nowhere that does NOT follow the paradigm.

And if Harmony was a Nascent Hour, than it trying to "recolor" the lores into the Elements would make sense. It's hour principle are formed after all, they're the Light of the Glory colored and shaped by the Hours. Or at least that's how I understood it.

With most of the old Hours dead, weakened or sealed, it makes sense that the old principles would grow weaker and potentially leave way for something new to replace them.

 

[DelightedOne]

I gotta be honest, it mostly feels like you just really don't want Harmony to interact with the CS half of the fusion universe rather than there being evidence of Harmony being something Completely Different vs. a new type of Hour or something.

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Oh, I really want Harmony to interact with the CS side of the world it just feels fundamentally different from the Hours for me.

But yeah, in canon the Hours are gods but there are gods who are not Hours and Harmony could be one of them but they always felt so weak that it doesn't really compute in my brain that Harmony could be one of them that is where that theory came from in the emotional sense.

 

[angelsadvocate666]

Most of the "Gods" who aren't Hours are literally just Names being mistaken for real players by people who don't know the power structure., IIRC. That or they're shit that was made up because, again, their worshippers don't know the actual Mansus stuff.

Then there's things like Janus who could be all of the Hours, none of them, or even a select few, depending on who you talk to.

 

[Greymere]

The change from Hours to Harmony doesn't feel to me more significant than the change from gods from Stone to Gods from Light, Flesh and Blood.

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More BoH lore talk incoming but:

I just had kind of a funny thought, regarding the different 'eras' in SHverse. Starting with From-Stone, then to From-Light, -Flesh, and -Blood... and then, potentially, to From-Steel. Moving from being ruled over by gods, to becoming gods, and then finally becoming the creators and masters of the gods.

Idk, I thought it was a bit of an interesting observation

But yeah, in canon the Hours are gods but there are gods who are not Hours and Harmony could be one of them but they always felt so weak that it doesn't really compute in my brain that Harmony could be one of them that is where that theory came from in the emotional sense.

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Tbh the only two I can think of off the top of my head are Vak, who is the personification of the Peacock Door (edit: and was/is a Name of the Horned Axe), and Janus, whose entire existence, or if he even can be meaningfully said to exist as an actual entity, is basically a big fat question mark.

 

[angelsadvocate666]

I just had kind of a funny thought, regarding the different 'eras' in SHverse. Starting with From-Stone, then to From-Light, -Flesh, and -Blood... and then, potentially, to From-Steel. Moving from being ruled over by gods, to becoming gods, and then finally becoming the creators and masters of the gods.

Idk, I thought it was a bit of an interesting observation

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I mean, if Hours are embodiments of their Lores, and Lores are natural laws of reality, then that's literally just the progression of civilization in a nutshell.

> gods are natural forces poorly understood in a world dark and dangerous to humans
> humans are now the dangerous ones, controlling much of the world but still contending with those natural forces on an even playing field with at least some understanding of them.
> presumably technology will grow until we can actively control and define those natural forces directly, but we're not quite there yet.

Interestingly enough, the way Ponies control their weather, days, and seasons would probably put them in the latter category, though mostly just because, at least in this setting, the natural forces they're controlling pretty much died and weren't putting up a fight anymore. Though i do have to wonder what happened in the Wake to parallel the stuff we've learned about how the Mansus got fucked up.

 

[Iustus Vitea]

"Oppressed humans" is a funny way of saying "didn't want them in the Mansus and otherwise dgaf". And that is an extremely uncharitable interpretation of the Red Sun, considering that every single ending it's involved in portrays it in a positive light and is explicitly named as a kinder sun.

Edit: It also ignores that the blood sacrifice thing is pretty strongly implied to be mutual. It takes a very small amount of blood from humanity, and in turn it sheds it's own blood to protect them.

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They didn't want them in the Mansus yes but they, the Seven-Coiled in particular, visited cruelties upon humans too. And I didn't say the Egg was evil only that it isn't wholly good. To clarify the SiS isn't wholly good either. There are endings where the Second Dawn is a good thing, others where it's neutral and some where it's bad. Just like there are endings where the Red Dawn is a good thing, some in which it is neutral and a few where it is bad (yes they exist, take A Cage of Light for example).

Plus there is the ending where the 'SiS' rises again but it's light is red and it demands sacrifice. I was mostly thinking of that ending when I made the reply because the very obvious implication is that in that ending the Egg is masquerading as the SiS. And then there are the books that talk about the Red Sun being false, a devourer of humans or our enemies depending on whoose blood we give it.

Less the previous dominating species and more human precursors. As in, at some point, a large chunk (but not all) of the Carapace Cross did something to transform themselves into humans. I've seen some speculation that the collective shearing might have been what birthed the Moth (who, as a reminder, is From-Blood), but that's mostly just WMG.

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Didn't that happen after the Lithomachy?

Edit: Just checked and it happened before.

Tbh the only two I can think of off the top of my head are Vak, who is the personification of the Peacock Door, and Janus, whose entire existence, or if he even can be meaningfully said to exist as an actual entity, is basically a big fat question mark.

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There are also the Gods-from-Nowhere who might be proper Hours might be something else depending on what you consider a proper Hour is. Then there are the Gods humanity cursed themselves with in the Woods, of which the Moth goes on to become an actual Hour.

 

[Greymere]

Just like there are endings where the Red Dawn is a good thing, some in which it is neutral and a few where it is bad (yes they exist, take A Cage of Light for example).

Plus there is the ending where the 'SiS' rises again but it's light is red and it demands sacrifice. I was mostly thinking of that ending when I made the reply because the very obvious implication is that in that ending the Egg is masquerading as the SiS. And then there are the books that talk about the Red Sun being false, a devourer of humans or our enemies depending on whoose blood we give it.

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The Cage of Light ending is not a negative portrayal of the Red Sun. Like, this is the exact text:

When once the Wolf-Divided is caged in light, the Sun will harden like spring ice, until - as we were born from the Shell - so the Red Sun will hatch, but gently. Each day it will accept a little - a very little - of our blood… and each night it will protect us. As it goes down into evening, as it rises in the morning, it will remember us in song. [You have proved yourself as Librarian; convinced the Hours to accept a History; changed the world; won the game. This is the memory that does not die. Please accept our congratulations.]

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This is not a ending that shows the Red Sun as a bad thing. Especially because the Prodigal version of this ending, which as a unique ending has more details compared to the generic one, is one of the endings that explicitly names the Red Sun as being kinder.

 

[Nevermort]

Less the previous dominating species and more human precursors. As in, at some point, a large chunk (but not all) of the Carapace Cross did something to transform themselves into humans. I've seen some speculation that the collective shearing might have been what birthed the Moth (who, as a reminder, is From-Blood), but that's mostly just WMG.

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I think in the wake they simply evolved into humans. I kind of correlate Wheel with ecosystem in general or at least some important parts of it. So far it is only way how I am able to imagine Moth simultaneously taking over Wheel's skin and hunting it. Human consciousness first possessing part of the Wheel (since animals are parts of ecosystem) and then hunting down the other parts (large segment of other animals).

 

[Iustus Vitea]

The Cage of Light ending is not a negative portrayal of the Red Sun. Like, this is the exact text:



This is not a ending that shows the Red Sun as a bad thing. Especially because the Prodigal version of this ending, which as a unique ending has more details compared to the generic one, is one of the endings that explicitly names the Red Sun as being kinder.

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My bad I meant the Cage of Ice, got the two mixed up

 

[Greymere]

My bad I meant the Cage of Ice, got the two mixed up

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I'm... pretty sure that's not actually one of the Red Sun endings? A Cage of Ice is a Knock ending and the Red Sun is in the Scale endings, at least if I'm understanding how the BoH endings work correctly.

 

[Greymere]

To elaborate on the BoH endings thing, as far as I can tell, the "core" of the ending is determined by the Aspect, with the exact flavoring determined by which Numen you invoke and if it's a unique ending. Looking over the Big List of Endings, the cores seem to be:

Edge: Mansus-wide war between all the Hours
Forge: Rise of the Gods-From-Steel(?)
Grail: Devour the last remnants of the Gods-From-Stone
Heart: The reawakening of remnants from the era of Stone(?)
Knock: The Gods-From-Stone are back and FUCKING PISSED
Lantern: The Second Dawn goes as intended and brings back the SiS
Winter: No Second Dawn
Moth: Raising the City Unbuilt as the City Never
Moon: Raising the City Unbuilt in the House of the Moon
Nectar: The Gods-From-Stone are reborn (and aren't out for revenge)
Rose: Name Ys as the City Unbuilt
Scale: The Second Dawn brings the Red Sun
Sky: Name Port Noon as the City Unbuilt(?)

 

[Iustus Vitea]

I'm... pretty sure that's not actually one of the Red Sun endings? A Cage of Ice is a Knock ending and the Red Sun is in the Scale endings, at least if I'm understanding how the BoH endings work correctly.

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The Inescapable Confinement Numen endings are each about the imprisonment of an Hour, usually the Watchman sometimes others and the consequences of that. Mostly that means the Second Dawn doesn't come sometimes it means a God-from-Stone arises; once the Flint, once the Seven-Coiled and multiple times the Egg. The Scale one makes mention of a kinder Sun while the Knock one seeks revenge. (or at least that's how I read the Prodigal Knock Confinement ending). There are probably others but I can't exactly search them out right now.

 

[Greymere]

The Inescapable Confinement Numen endings are each about the imprisonment of an Hour, usually the Watchman sometimes others and the consequences of that. Mostly that means the Second Dawn doesn't come sometimes it means a God-from-Stone arises; once the Flint, once the Seven-Coiled and multiple times the Egg. The Scale one makes mention of a kinder Sun while the Knock one seeks revenge. (or at least that's how I read the Prodigal Knock Confinement ending). There are probably others but I can't exactly search them out right now.

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Ah, to clarify, since I was explicitly comparing/conflating the two: I don't think that the Red Sun is the Egg Unhatching, exactly. I think it is like the Egg Unhatching, and may indeed be a reincarnation of sorts of the Egg insofar as it is a reincarnation of the Sun, but it is not the God-From-Stone itself.

It hatched, after all

 

[Iustus Vitea]

It hatched, after all

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Point but I personally consider them to be very similar and that the Red Sun inherits many of the Egg's traits.

Also in the ending I mentioned while the Egg comes back it also hatches and people seek shelter specifically due to that event.

 

[Gyldir]

Absolutely not, wtf Pitt?

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Wow, overlooked that part.

Hard no on omake Mareinette-ing Copper.

But ok with cultist simulator feeding Copper to Mareinette (i.e. Copper gets eaten directly, leaving only her skin). Its not something Velvets should want, but If it makes Mareinette happy i could see it as a necessity to prevent harm from innocents.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

[X] [ASH-GUARD] Stalk.
[x] [ASH-PREY] Windy Flakes


We plan to kill Copper and her cult in a 2 turns by death of 3 names. Windy we have no idea on.

 

[Venerable Ro]

Look if you're going to kill someone just kill them, all this Mareinette kriffery is a bad habit to get into, gives her mixed messages when we'd like to at least try to mellow her out, and sets a bad example for our sons.

For that matter we're also hoping to get on good terms with the rest of our names, and while doing their various task/quest things is the primary way to get that done, not playing akulite games would probably help too.

 

[Lorrie]

Personally I'd rather use Copper for the Grail Sacrament, consuming the Grail cultist is amusingly ironic.