Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[Pittauro]

I'll note, on the talk of next turn, that there's a very good chance that Axe will just… go get the key, the moment we find it and tell her. Maybe even force an automatic expedition. I can't really see her going "oh, you know where the thing I need to end my eras long imprisonment is? I guess I can wait a month or two for you to be ready to get it."

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She MIGHT maybe be willing to wait, as long as it's during the same summoning? The main thing would be avoiding the returning chains.

that said, if we tell her where it is she's likely to live on her own. Maybe she'd wait until the next turn as we'd basically be going "give me a few days/weeks to prepare supplies and plan for the trip.

 

[Zxzx24]

I'll note, on the talk of next turn, that there's a very good chance that Axe will just… go get the key, the moment we find it and tell her. Maybe even force an automatic expedition. I can't really see her going "oh, you know where the thing I need to end my eras long imprisonment is? I guess I can wait a month or two for you to be ready to get it."

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Would that be a bad thing?

And think of our poor brother... made to run off from the estate...

 

[angelsadvocate666]

She MIGHT maybe be willing to wait, as long as it's during the same summoning? The main thing would be avoiding the returning chains.

that said, if we tell her where it is she's likely to live on her own. Maybe she'd wait until the next turn as we'd basically be going "give me a few days/weeks to prepare supplies and plan for the trip.

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I mean, her greater self in the Mansus is still trapped and surrounded by the evidence of her failures. Name or not, that can't exactly be great psychologically speaking.

Would that be a bad thing?

And think of our poor brother... made to run off from the estate...

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Oh I don't think it's bad, just noting down that the whole "can't do an expedition until the turn after it's found" rule might not matter.

 

[Pittauro]

Oh I don't think it's bad, just noting down that the whole "can't do an expedition until the turn after it's found" rule might not matter.

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we did get interrupts at times. Then again we might just have the actions be made a fleeting opportunity for the follow-up turn.

 

[spiderhellian]

Watchpony. He said the words were wrong not the truths they represent, but I could be wrong too.

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Hahahaha oops! That's an error.

 

[Iustus Vitea]

Sure, I definitely think that it's likely that it would also have high-level books (if not necessarily Level 7, since Frangiclave is there and is the key to a Name's friendship). But then, we also thought it was likely that one of the Blank Plains' locations would give us a Winter scrap ("it's the Winter area! how could it not?"), and we all know how that prediction turned out.

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I don't think any of the Mansus expeditions have given scraps? It's always been for doing something in the Mansus, passing a check if even for that.

This is going to be a long and dangerous expedition, I feel getting a tier 5 book and the Frangiclaive is the bare minimum here.

 

[Pittauro]

I don't think any of the Mansus expeditions have given scraps? It's always been for doing something in the Mansus, passing a check if even for that.

This is going to be a long and dangerous expedition, I feel getting a tier 5 book and the Frangiclaive is the bare minimum here.

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We've only had the ONE mansus expedition, the Ruined Church. And we gained both Grail and Lore there... then we met Mareinette.

 

[Greymere]

I don't think any of the Mansus expeditions have given scraps? It's always been for doing something in the Mansus, passing a check if even for that.

This is going to be a long and dangerous expedition, I feel getting a tier 5 book and the Frangiclaive is the bare minimum here.

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Wasn't talking about a Mansus expedition, just exploring locations in the Mansus (e.g. the Dry Well, the Garden of Lights), which have always given us a scrap. Betting that one of the two remaining Blank Plains locations at the time could give us a Winter scrap, which turned out to be the Garden of Lights (Lantern) and the Tower (SH) is the reason we had to let Baldomare expire, because we had to eat the Woods-Fruit to reach Moth 4 so that we could teach Selene a lesson that turn w/o rolling.

 

[OurLadyOfWires]

Watchpony. He said the words were wrong not the truths they represent, but I could be wrong too.

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Hahahaha oops! That's an error.

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Well, uh, I guess that technically is a typo. But no, I definitely meant the truth behind the two words was what's wrong.

 

[Iustus Vitea]

We've only had the ONE mansus expedition, the Ruined Church. And we gained both Grail and Lore there... then we met Mareinette.

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Wasn't talking about a Mansus expedition, just exploring locations in the Mansus (e.g. the Dry Well, the Garden of Lights), which have always given us a scrap. Betting that one of the two remaining Blank Plains locations at the time could give us a Winter scrap, which turned out to be the Garden of Lights (Lantern) and the Tower (SH) is the reason we had to let Baldomare expire, because we had to eat the Woods-Fruit to reach Moth 4 so that we could teach Selene a lesson that turn w/o rolling, iirc.

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Ah I meant traveling in the Mansus.

We've gotten scraps for achieving something, passing a check basically. A reward and not a freebie. Though in the Garden of Lights case it's probably 'cause it's the grave for the SiS rather then SiR. Lantern Hour he may be but he doesn't do much in his Lantern aspect. Getting on Winter was a safe bet then.

I get what you mean about assuming but this is still the best course of action.

 

[spiderhellian]

This is going to be a long and dangerous expedition, I feel getting a tier 5 book and the Frangiclaive is the bare minimum here.

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I really don't like gambling on losing Baldomare (and possibly having another contested summon down the line). Having a Name available is amazingly strong and it seems really unwise to let one go. (The kind of thing our Foes would never do!)

 

[Iustus Vitea]

I mean what else are we to do? At best can set up a conditional for turn turn 20, if we get a tier 5 and above book Baldomare gives us an Influence so we can do the SH actions, if we don't she goes and grabs herself a book.

 

[Greymere]

I mean what else are we to do? At best can set up a conditional for turn turn 20, if we get a tier 5 and above book Baldomare gives us an Influence so we can do the SH actions, if we don't she goes and grabs herself a book.

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You do realize that if she goes book-searching on T20 we wouldn't actually acquire the book until T21?

As for what else we could do... RotT on T19? Baldomare likely be busy w/ Frangiclave, but if we want to be sure we can scry one ourself. Would likely mean either (anticipated) Sacrament action or Canterlot search gets replaced, but tbh I would be inclined to skip the Sacrament next turn anyway since high DC + no SH Influence.

 

[Zxzx24]

I expect we will be fighting Copper for Baldomares summoning again.

 

[Greymere]

I expect we will be fighting Copper for Baldomares summoning again.

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...well at least having Frangiclave should make that easier, directly and indirectly?

 

[BlueSteel_Null]

What is the actual difference between a personal and a taught Sacrament. Like for example if we go for the Taught knock instead of the personal sacrament what would be the difference. Both on a Mechanical and Story side?

 

[Zxzx24]

...well at least having Frangiclave should make that easier, directly and indirectly?

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It should still be a priority. But I've already argued that point before.

 

[Greymere]

What is the actual difference between a personal and a taught Sacrament. Like for example if we go for the Taught knock instead of the personal sacrament what would be the difference. Both on a Mechanical and Story side?

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You get a different Sacrament power and Lore flavor.

That's literally the only difference as far as we've been told.

Would you like strawberry or chocolate flavored Lore?

 

[Nevermort]

…something I just realised, there's 9 Histories in this setting. Something didn't just break the Mansus they broke Eternity so bad that I'm surprised the world hasn't ended yet. Which I suppose I should've realised a while ago because the Hours are fucking dead but at the same time the Lock is perhaps the most tyrannical action ever taken in the History of the Mansus.

Edge Velvet would be fine, now Grail Velvet on the other…

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Having only 9 Histories each specifically with different Lore Velvet would be very strange. Perhaps Bird went with multiple parallel dimensions from MLP cannon instead. Remember that if Sunset exists there is also human mirror dimension. It would be another history I guess? Unless one of Lore Velvets is suddenly human.

Or maybe if one of Velvets becomes SH Hour then her retroactively having several different Histories centered around herself could be fairly normal.

No. The subtext tells you all you need to know, or all you can know.

Sometimes, getting a Sacrament is like jumping into a pit.

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@OurLadyOfWires What about individuals that can't take part in The Act? Sacrament text outright states that we will be told who is not available. Unless it is something that we will know only at four scraps of Grail?Does Cadence counts among those? Soft Sweeps? Stormchaser?

 

[Iustus Vitea]

You do realize that if she goes book-searching on T20 we wouldn't actually acquire the book until T21?

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Wait really? I thought she could grab and consume on the same turn.

As for what else we could do... RotT on T19? Baldomare likely be busy w/ Frangiclave, but if we want to be sure we can scry one ourself. Would likely mean either (anticipated) Sacrament action or Canterlot search gets replaced, but tbh I would be inclined to skip the Sacrament next turn anyway since high DC + no SH Influence.

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Yeah I was going to skip Sacrament next turn from the start, grabbing a book is fringe by me. Bits, I suppose, are the only concern both because of the rituals and the expeditions

What is the actual difference between a personal and a taught Sacrament. Like for example if we go for the Taught knock instead of the personal sacrament what would be the difference. Both on a Mechanical and Story side?

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Put plainly our Sacraments are more dangerous/costly to get and might be weaker but are based on our interpretation of the Lores and the life we have led so far. An Invitation is by comparison, cheaper, presumably safer and might be stronger at the cost of having our interpretation changed.

To take Grail as an example our current guess is that our Sacrament is some mind control related power and further turns our understanding of Grail to mindcontrol. Marinette's on the other hand relates to cannibalism and probably gives us health regen or power gain at the cost of eating people.

 

[spiderhellian]

If we do get a SH influence a personal book search action would probably be super strong? Would need to confirm that we can search + buy + give to Baldomare in one turn. And I'm trying to keep in mind that we should leave planning details to after Luna is awakened (maybe she can help, eg with archives access..?)

 

[BlueSteel_Null]

You get a different Sacrament power and Lore flavor.

That's literally the only difference as far as we've been told.

Would you like strawberry or chocolate flavored Lore?

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yes but if you go far enough into a lore, wont you eventually master all flavors of that lore, both strawberry and chocolate, or are you locked out of one by picking the other.

 

[spiderhellian]

yes but if you go far enough into a lore, wont you eventually master all flavors of that lore, both strawberry and chocolate, or are you locked out of one by picking the other.

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Specific skills leveraging the lores can differ quite a bit. We've seen this in the realizations — another Velvet might not get our darkvision or danger sense, let alone what another pony with a totally different background gets.

Even if multiple Sacraments give the same level of understanding of a lore, a different 'Solemn Oath' will lead to a different flavour of that understanding and different skills we might gain from it. So yes, there is some lock out.

 

[des-pair-2]

yes but if you go far enough into a lore, wont you eventually master all flavors of that lore, both strawberry and chocolate, or are you locked out of one by picking the other.

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I think that our puny mortal minds cannot comprehend both strawberry and chocolate flavor of the same Lore at the same time. They would just mix together in our minds into nonsense and that's not something we would want to happen.

 

[Shaper47]

Because your mind was finally ready for it.

And your body was once again in its correct form.

And you remembered the knowledge needed to open it.

And, at long last, you had the strength to do what had to be done.

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I'm flattered, really I'm so very flattered.

Love should not be attachment nor obsession, but free-flowing and freely given.

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A pretty lie, a beautiful lie. But if love was not such an attachment for Velvet it would not hurt her so. The possible bad end of losing our loves shows what love is to Velvet.


Nice omake, though you kinda did Our Lady of Wires a bit dirty in it.

 

[Crystal Violet]

yes but if you go far enough into a lore, wont you eventually master all flavours of that lore, both strawberry and chocolate, or are you locked out of one by picking the other.

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Hm... I mean, on the one hand, it seems as if a Sacrament is something special- But I could assume that it is, in the end, an extension of a Lore, regardless of how special it is, even if it does have a large effect- Much like how flavour can make all the difference in the taste of food. I would say that it probably will have a lasting effect on us, but we could potentially learn how to apply or understand a different aspect of a Lore later on, though I'd also say that Sacraments are unlikely to have a small effect, regardless. If you were to understand enough of a Lore to imitate the effects of another Sacrament, I'd assume one would be very high in said Lore anyways. Of course, if you regarded a Sacrament as part of the "foundation" that is building on an understanding of a Lore, then it would have a much greater effect on how it is perceived later on, since we build on that perception. Or perhaps you could view understanding a Lore as finding the pieces of a puzzle that already existed... maybe, even adding pieces to that puzzle itself, given that understanding is based on perspective, and everybody is different in some way.

I will say that this is only an assumption on my part as to how it would work, though. There are a lot of possible ways it could be expressed, and I'd probably be very tired before ever exhausting all the possibilities, and far be it from me to presume how the quest works in the first place. ^-^ I'd certainly be interested in seeing how high levels of Lore are expressed from the perspective of someone with that height, however, since they seem to be based on an understanding of the world, and how it is seen, so it might be interesting narratively speaking.

...Huh. I seem to have a habit of blurting out large chunks of text. Well, hopefully this was helpful.

 

[Shaper47]

[NON-CANON stories will have their titles starting with "In which..."]

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Grrr, if only somepony hadn't burned down the Woods to dust.

 

[OurLadyOfWires]

@OurLadyOfWires What about individuals that can't take part in The Act? Sacrament text outright states that we will be told who is not available. Unless it is something that we will know only at four scraps of Grail?Does Cadence counts among those? Soft Sweeps? Stormchaser?

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Just like the other Sacraments, you'll learn more about it once you get enough scraps, yes.

Wait really? I thought she could grab and consume on the same turn.

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To be honest, if you discover a book at the end of the turn Baldomare is going to leave, you can gift it to her right before she skedaddles.

So yeah, technically if you make a shop action or an expedition on the turn Baldomare is set to leave, and you happen to find an applicable book, we can make an "end of turn" vote to decide if you want to give it away or not.

I think that our puny mortal minds cannot comprehend both strawberry and chocolate flavor of the same Lore at the same time.

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I think I recall this kind of discussion before, in the previous thread. And I think the analogy I used is that a Sacrament is like a Master's Degree.

You need to "specialize" yourself in order to go any deeper into the Lores than you already are. So yes, I agree with you, no double-dipping on flavors. At least, the quest (or rather, a mortal's life) is not long enough for you to acquire two Sacraments.

Because it's not a matter of "do prerequisites, gain bonus". A Sacrament is, well, taking a deeper plunge into something. So in order to get another Sacrament on the same Lore, you would either have to drag yourself out of the water, and start the journey from scratch (like an amnesia playthrough) or go so much deeper that you can basically reach the Sacrament from the end of the path (which is what Namehoos would be closer to).

These analogies aren't perfect. But I hope they help a little bit.

I'm flattered, really I'm so very flattered.

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Wat?

 

[BlueSteel_Null]

Just like the other Sacraments, you'll learn more about it once you get enough scraps, yes.


To be honest, if you discover a book at the end of the turn Baldomare is going to leave, you can gift it to her right before she skedaddles.

So yeah, technically if you make a shop action or an expedition on the turn Baldomare is set to leave, and you happen to find an applicable book, we can make an "end of turn" vote to decide if you want to give it away or not.


I think I recall this kind of discussion before, in the previous thread. And I think the analogy I used is that a Sacrament is like a Master's Degree.

You need to "specialize" yourself in order to go any deeper into the Lores than you already are. So yes, I agree with you, no double-dipping on flavors. At least, the quest (or rather, a mortal's life) is not long enough for you to acquire two Sacraments.

Because it's not a matter of "do prerequisites, gain bonus". A Sacrament is, well, taking a deeper plunge into something. So in order to get another Sacrament on the same Lore, you would either have to drag yourself out of the water, and start the journey from scratch (like an amnesia playthrough) or go so much deeper that you can basically reach the Sacrament from the end of the path (which is what Namehoos would be closer to).

These analogies aren't perfect. But I hope they help a little bit.


Wat?

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Thanks for that, I just hate it when You have to lock yourself out of a options, When ever there are options infront of me, if i'm completely blocked out of taking one, then I have to spend a hard while thinking about it. Even if there is no functional difference for the story wiather or not it is locked. I like the idea that a future Velvet or anyone can have the option to go back and take the second option.
Besides with the immortality of ascending, we have all the time, in all the History's to study every lore. After all we started our Journey as Moth, To understand nothing, then lore keeper, to attempt to understand all, to then History, to embody all possibility's.

P.S. I just thought of something Secret History is subverted by every other Lore thus Secret History can be understood as the most basic form of lore, thus it has basically equal potential in every other lore. It would just take time, and understanding.

 

[Greymere]

To be honest, if you discover a book at the end of the turn Baldomare is going to leave, you can gift it to her right before she skedaddles.

So yeah, technically if you make a shop action or an expedition on the turn Baldomare is set to leave, and you happen to find an applicable book, we can make an "end of turn" vote to decide if you want to give it away or not.

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Shop action meaning a purchase, or shop action meaning actually finding the book? Just to clarify, bcuz the distinction is a bit important.

I.e. if we (or Baldomare) take a "find books" action on T20 (or scry a purchasable one via RotT I guess) and that "find books" action produces the option to buy a Level 5+ book, will you effectively give us the option to decide whether to buy it and give it to Baldomare at the end of T20 instead of where it normally would be (T21 plan voting)?