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Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

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[X] Compromise.

Pittauro said:
I really REALLY hope we get to change the personal one, but I'm just not comfortable with seriously considering the implied permanent brainwashing.
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The personal Grail Sacrament is not brainwashing.

As long as the Minions got that way purely through narrative function (e.g. Rarity, Jade) it's just a mutual choice to keep our relationship as it is forever.
That's an essential part of any long-lasting relationship, of any kind.
Not a violation of personal autonomy.


EDIT: And yes, while the event itself had Grail in it I'm pretty sure Rarity got the way she is by her own unfettered choice.
She wants what we can give her, but that doesn't mean we're coercing or grooming her in any way; we just happen to be able to give her what she wants better than anyone or anything else could.
That's also why she ceases to be a follower once reaching our level of Grail. She's better at getting what she wants herself than we are at giving it to her. Skill issue, not brainwashing.
 
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OurLadyOfWires said:
This isnt by any means a criticism. But reading this did make me chuckle.

It's the age-old problem of "we are in ap hell" and "new servant? Nah. What would i use it for anyways?" :V
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I mean people are also saying... "what do we even want fluttershy for" :V so I felt it was a valid point.

I have many rudimentary questions for comet feet. Not the least of which is, "What are you going to tell Fluttershy." Alongside "What do you want ME to tell Fluttershy???"

But I think at this point Velvet is... sufficiently adroit at telling lies.
 
I think a lot of people make a lot of assumptions about what the Grail Sacrament—and a couple of others—entails, when they're very definitely vague for a reason. Unless someone can put up a WoQM clarifying either way, absolutely fucking nobody should be making definitive statements on, say, whether it's brainwashing or not.

(Personally it sure as fuck sounds like it is to me, but I will be the first to admit that it's just a guess.)
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
Frankly Comet is not valuable at all to use now that we have Biedde, and soon to be super easy access to Mares in the Light. Summoning requirements: LANTERN 80, KNOCK 60, EDGE 60.

Baldomare General bonus: +30, once we have the add the EDGE Level 3 (STUDIED we already have, and the Knock 6 Artifact. Baldomare +60 Lantern reroll + 60 Knock + 45 Edge. Add in even a minor Edge Reagent and she basically cannot fail.

And I want the next thing we go after to be the Edge 6 Furious Sliver. Both to prevent it being used against us, and it just the best possible weapon for a fight. Basically a requirement to get the Edge Sacrament.

Fluttershy is valuable both as someone can back us up socially, and just having a person around to be friends with.
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Ah yes. Fluttershy. Notable extreme introvert and asocial Fluttershy. Backing us up on a social action. We're talking about the same character here, right?

Also you're kind of ignoring that even though MitLs do have Edge 3, that is... very likely not what we'd be using them for. Because they are Lantern spirits, first and foremost. And what is Lantern-aspected that we're pretty much always wanting to do to some degree? Cast RotT. Also the opportunity cost in having Baldomare be the one to summon them; a turn she spends summoning a MitL is a turn she spends not applying her ludicrous bonus to finding new expedition sites or artifacts for us, or channeling Influences to boost our own actions, or doing something plot-relevant like helping us search for the Outsider.

Especially when, if we get to keep Frangiclave after breaking DoA's chains, Jade will be perfectly able to summon MitLs on her own.

Also, as a reminder, we don't actually have a permanent three-circle ritual site yet. Next turn will be the last turn we can summon things without suspicion until we can find a new site, if we don't get lucky with the Canterlot caverns. Which also reminded me: If we do have Baldomare channel a SH Influence for Sacrament purposes (and the caverns don't give us a three-circle site), we might want to consider spending an AP to find a permanent three-circle ritual site. It'll probably be an expedition site or something, but it's not like we don't have several Names we can throw at an expedition-shaped problem.

Edit: Also maybe once we've resolved the Frangiclave expedition, we can have someone scry an artifact that can help with finding expedition sites, so that our non-Baldomare summons and Confidants can actually find higher level expedition sites with some amount of consistency :V

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jason1stlegion said:
As long as the Minions got that way purely through narrative function (e.g. Rarity, Jade) it's just a mutual choice to keep our relationship as it is forever.
That's an essential part of any long-lasting relationship, of any kind.
Not a violation of personal autonomy.
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You know what else is part of long-lasting relationships? Having the choice to leave if you decide you want/need to.
 
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I find it kind of poetic that we summoned Biedde in the same Turn that we confront Comet Feet. I suppose the question I want to put forth is this: do we want Comet Feet to be a tool -- or a friend?

In this meeting, let us ask: what is our intent? To forever direct him, or to let him choose his own actions -- to let him decide the intent behind his actions?

EDIT:
the focus isn't on Comet Feet, the focus is on Velvet Covers. What does Velvet Covers wish for Comet Feet to be?
Then this wish in turn characterizes Velvet Covers and her own resolution.
OurLadyOfWires said:
No. No short term traps. Only long term implications.
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It's really not (just) about Comet Feet - it's about the action we take to deal with Comet Feet and the consequences of that action.
 
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Cochimetl said:
Comet will never be our friend.
He's likely (never destined, not with the way the Histories work) to become Stromchaser's friend though.
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Yeah, that is true, unfortunately this World doesn't seem to let Velvet and Comet start over.

Buuuuuut... if Equestria became a better place again, it just might be possible. I always wonder how much Evil is doing to make things bad, this could be one of the small details.

Saving the Crystal Empire would probably make it possible since according to Celestia "If the Empire is filled with hope and love, those things are reflected across all of Equestria. If hatred and fear take hold...". That looks like the perfect counter to Evil if we haven't healed the Stains by then and if we did that would boost Harmony enough for things to become generally better, that sure can't hurt.
 
It's not a binary between merry friendship and loathing hatred, there's a vast spectrum to be had. Right now we're pretty far into the hatred part of things but I think we could get around to "my wife's Thursday neighborhood crochet and gossip get-together buddy" level of mutual disinterest. With a side of "coworkers who have completely different hobbies and social lives but manage to coordinate on job tasks well."

I don't think he'll ever like us, but I think it's very possible to get him to neither hate nor fear us.
 
Are you friends with your neighbor? The one two doors down that you only occasionally see? Probably not, but if you see them you might at least give that vague nod of notice.

Are you friends with the other neighbor though? The loud one, always up at odd hours, making noises that somehow always reach your ears with the grating voice? Probably not. Your thoughts about them are probably at most idle frustration.


Friendship is nice, but as long as it's a bit further from active antagonism, that's progress.
 
Venerable Ro said:
It's not a binary between merry friendship and loathing hatred, there's a vast spectrum to be had. Right now we're pretty far into the hatred part of things but I think we could get around to "my wife's Thursday neighborhood crochet and gossip get-together buddy" level of mutual disinterest. With a side of "coworkers who have completely different hobbies and social lives but manage to coordinate on job tasks well."

I don't think he'll ever like us, but I think it's very possible to get him to neither hate nor fear us.
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I don't. He knows we were and are involved on shady and dangerous stuff and we introduced his girlfriend to it. Lores can be dangerous just from knowing them and they change ponies. I don't think he would ever not dislike us because jusr getting involved with us is likely to distress, harm or change Fluttershy eventually.
 
The option for compromise outright states he will no longer hate us or gain hatred. If ANYTHING could let us befriend him, it would be this. And it guarantees that just casual use/favors won't worsen our relationship. I wouldn't say he's overly useful now, but we could try teaching him a bit of Moth and sending him to assassinate Copper?

Or bring him with us and Beidde when we go after her eventually. If we do. Not to mention the benefits of making him 'Not an enemy' and strengthening his ties to us when copper comes looking for an inside agent to help her take us out. Which I'm certain she'll do eventually. Especially with her growing cult, Ponyville taking on new members constantly, and us not knowing every single person around.

Even more especially with us no longer having total control of all the details on who is included in the house staff… all it takes is one Grail/Moth or Moth/Edge assassin with high enough lore or good enough Rolls, or the right influence, and our family will be in danger.

Having Fluttershy to handle socializing the town a bit more and Comet to better handle the Copper situation is useful. But frankly, having Comet be on a dedicated 'anti Copper' duty would be rather more useful than having Fluttershy at all. Compromise gets us both, just with half the AP of successful Negotiation or Conscription, and a friendlier starting point should we get the chance to improve things in the future. Which this option will probably permit.

Overall, Compromise just feels like a narratively better option, and sets a precedent. If we get the chance to compromise with Copper, that could be a major boon. A semi-friendly or at least non-hostile cult? Spreading the Lores for our officers to pick up clues on?

I don't know if it'll EVER be possible, but this sets precedent for us compromising and forgiving even with those that betrayed us, as long as compromise and honest reconciliation can be reached. That is a pretty powerful precedent to have influencing Velvet's persona from here-on out… I have to feel that this would impact how likely we are to be capable of ending the Cult Wars. It died once already, and ponies are better than they used to be. Surely we can kill the wars again… with the right narrative and mechanical precedents, and our ex-master no longer actively encouraging them… Surely…

Edit: Specified later on to be 'will no longer gain hatred just for us asking a favor'. Which is different than not gaining it at all.
 
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"Comet Feet, come with me as I annihilate Copper's everything."
"But don't worry, I'm not going to make you kill any more ponies or anyone you know; I just need someone to accompany Baldomare and Axe for finding and defusing any Windigo bombs they have in Manehattan."
"Biedde will be handling all the murder, you see."
 
Here is a thought: with Comet more firmly on our side (assuming compromise works), what if we sent HIM to Copper to try to organize a meeting in a neutral location?

That's if we have any interest at all in negotiating/diplomacing with Copper.

If not, then scry or explore for her, then send Biedde and/or Names to kill her.
 
I like the mutual nature of Compromise. I am certain it will prompt a few fleeting opportunities in the future if Comet would ask Velvet for something. The other options don't seem to allow that.

Also, while I'm thinking on it. Anyone got a preliminary tally?
 
Maer said:
The option for compromise outright states he will no longer hate us or gain hatred. If ANYTHING could let us befriend him, it would be this. And it guarantees that just casual use/favors won't worsen our relationship. I wouldn't say he's overly useful now, but we could try teaching him a bit of Moth and sending him to assassinate Copper?
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A minor nitpick but the option for compromise only says that his hatred will not grow as a result of asking favors. It says nothing about him not hating us anymore.
OurLadyOfWires said:
[] Compromise.
-Velvet Covers and Comet Feet will reach an agreement.
-Velvet Covers will be prohibited from teaching anything about the Lores to Fluttershy. It will no longer be acceptable to level Fluttershy up, ask her to perform rituals, or do other Lore-related actions.
-Comet Feet will no longer grow his hatred towards you every time you ask him for a favor.
-Comet Feet and Fluttershy will remain a "single" Confidante, together. But rather than having to "ask Comet for a favor", he will take over Fluttershy's actions and perform them, if he is better suited for it. (Asking Fluttershy to go on an Expedition, or perform a ritual, will have Comet Feet to do it instead, for example).
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So it means that:
a) He will retain his current level of animosity until something else comes along to change it (he hates us)
b) We will not be able to teach the lores to Fluttershy, which means his hatred will not grow futher as a result of teaching her the lores (since we can't).
c) His hatred will not grow further as a result of using him for confidant actions (presumably because we will ask him to do them directly instead of using Fluttershy as intermediary and getting her involved that way).
d) It is technically possible for his hatred to keep growing if Fluttershy gets more involved with us, it will just be considerably harder for it to happen since the deal removes the options of teaching her about the Lores and he takes over her confidant actions. It might still happen as a result of events or if Fluttershy ends up targeted as a result of her association with us or if Fluttershy decides to do independent research (since we are the ones who informed her of the Lores' existence).

Granted, it is the most stable/less problematic option other than perhaps assassination, but assassination is actually getting rid of resources in exchange for security and I think we do that too much already.
 
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Ah… thank you for the point, Bakkasama. That does change things a bit, but really not much. We can improve our relationship with him fairly passively by getting Fluttershy more friends- Jade, Rarity, possibly some of the other Mane six… maybe introduce her to Cadence?

Regardless, helping her and making her happy, as well as trying to help him like that would help our relationship improve- heck, we're the wife of his friend. Improve that friendship and his own opinion of us will likely rise, especially as we continue to keep our promise.

This sets us up to finally start making amends and soothing the raised hackles and healing the wounds. That's important. Though… speaking of Cadence…

In 100% convinced it's already been brought up, but does anyone else REALLY want to teach her Grail?

Edit: Maybe also have the girls go help Fluttershy with her animals? It's impossible not to be happier when our girls are around, and it'll also teach them how to care for animals! Maybe they'll learn other useful things and get the rest of their friends involved?
 
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Shaper47 said:
Eh, our personal grail sacrament sounds a lot like what Cadence pulled with us and Shinning to me.
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I still think that Velvet not wanting for other ponies to leave refers to them dying. We even have example of such thoughts in recent update
OurLadyOfWires said:
She got her boyfriend today. And tomorrow she will be married. And the day after she will be old. And after that you will be burying her bones in her final place of rest.
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And frankly brainwashing minions is entirely redundant action. Now if we bind their spirits to us so after death their stay with us in the Mansus instead of going to the new afterlife... There even was an ability to take dead lovers with you in CS. Or perhaps some kind of shared life pool?

Bakkasama said:
A minor nitpick but the option for compromise only says that his hatred will not grow as a result of asking favors. It says nothing about him not hating us anymore.
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I would add that Comet Feet will no longer grow his hatred towards you every time you ask him for a favor.
It can still mean that some favors will cause his hatred to grow. Although perhaps some favors could cause his hatred to abate for all I know.
 
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Maer said:
We can improve our relationship with him fairly passively by getting Fluttershy more friends- Jade, Rarity, possibly some of the other Mane six… maybe introduce her to Cadence?
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The best way of doing that would be to just get the rest of the Mane six to at least Close Friends, Confidantes got so much focus on this Quest(for good reasons of course) it made regular friends feel like they are not worth it and I would like to fix that someday(especialy with some of the most important ponies in the World).

Maer said:
In 100% convinced it's already been brought up, but does anyone else REALLY want to teach her Grail?
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Yes, it is one of her lores and if we want her to progress properly we need to teach her everything she can learn(it was implied unbalanced lores have adverse effects). Grail itself is not a problem since we are almost at All-4 with Heart being the only principle we need to level up so any "issues" with control should be behind us.

And if her Realizations are as good as Selene's it will definitely be worth it. There is also:
- The matter of what All-3 does for an Alicorn(and All-4 too) since Selene was a special case we never really got to see what that looks like, we will find out soon so if it is good we should give Cadance the same opportunity.
- The possibility of further training or benefits like with Selene.
- The need for a powerful "Confidante".
- This is less a point and more of a desire but... Alicornae Cadance(if Selene reaches that somehow we NEED to get Cadance like that, girl will need to shield a whole Empire pretty soon so she needs all the help we can give her).
- Another personal thing: I loved Selene's lessons and I want to teach more Alicorns.

That actually reminded me we need to know what the best order for her lessons is, we did well with Selene so I would like to repeat that with Cadance.
 
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DelightedOne said:
The best way of doing that would be to just get the rest of the Mane six to at least Close Friends, Confidantes got so much focus on this Quest(for good reasons of course) it made regular friends feel like they are not worth it and I would like to fix that someday(especialy with some of the most important ponies in the World).
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Probably because the nature of non-Confidants means they only rarely show up in the narrative unless we intentionally interact with them.

For instance, when was the last time we actually saw any mention of Cherilee or Filthy Rich?

DelightedOne said:
That actually reminded me we need to know what the best order for her lessons is, we did well with Selene so I would like to repeat that with Cadance.
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God I hope it's not the same format as Selene's lessons were. We don't have nine turns to wait for Cadance to get to Grail 3/Heart 3/Winter 3 if Sombra's going to start knocking on our metaphorical door soonish :V

I'd hope it'd be more like with regular Confidant training, going from Level 0 -> Level 1 -> Level 3 -> Level 4. Just with like, more pizzazz in the actual lesson-giving.
 
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Greymere said:
God I hope it's not the same format as Selene's lessons were. We don't have nine turns to wait for Cadance to get to Grail 3/Heart 3/Winter 3 if Sombra's going to start knocking on our metaphorical door soonish :V

I'd hope it'd be more like with regular Confidant training, going from Level 0 -> Level 1 -> Level 3 -> Level 4. Just with like, more pizzazz in the actual lesson-giving.
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That would be like half a Season away.

That might not be 9 turns at all, Selene only took that long because she was a filly, Cadance is fully grown and considering Alicorns have two actions that would be... 5 turns? But Selene can reach All-4 with one Velvet action now so it is possible investing 1 Velvet action could be the way we would raise Cadance's levels too, one stage at a time(3 turns).

Oh, Interesting thought: What would happen if All-3 Cadance saw Soft Sweeps? She is the most sensitive Alicorn when it comes to the lores and in the Princess Quest omake there was a hint she would be able to notice something about Soft so it is most likely the Daughter-to be and now that she is closer to existing it might be even more obvious.

That makes me think about Selene noticing it too after her Winter Realization, that drama could be so tasty.
 
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