Exalted 3E Discussion

Yzarc · Feb 3, 2016

Serafina said:
I'm sorry, but Craft in its current state is indefensible.

Well, both yes and no.

The Charms to "Help" craft is both boring and useless. I did agree with you there. But even with the Slots (Which can be ignored) and even with the different xp (Which I wish I could have ignored), all you really need is 10 or so charms in craft, mainly the "Experiential Conjuring of True Void" cascade and just ignore all the other so called "Charms" which are all useless chaff. (I am not happy about a lot of them)

Craft was made with a ton of weird decisions that I ran into, that when I checked OP, was "Working as Intended," as in a intentional part of the system. Craft was intended with only a certain type of play in mind and unfortunately quite a lot of people don't hit that. I think that why the whole, "You are not the Targeted Audience" thing came from.

But yes, the Idea was good and works and is fun if you do a lot of crafting, but is very subjective, bloated withwhat I feel are unnecessary parts and gets bogged down fast without some much needed house ruling. I never disagreed with anything you said except the part that the core system is broken as some people are arguing. It does work and is fairly fun, if highly limiting. The System could use a ton of changes but works, if not thematically then in action resolution.

I was forced to give it a fair chance and while I largely won't use it as it,it can be used.

Smuthunter · Feb 3, 2016

Nervaqus987 said:
And that's not even getting into how goddamn late the game is.

We're all upset about that. The difference is I think it wound up being worth the wait and I'm looking forward to paying money for the hardcover when it comes out.

Nervaqus987 said:
Again, seriously?

So what, in your eyes people cannot read through a system, see what it does and what it says to do and then not recognize the flaws in it?

No. Emphatically no. You can't understand any complex system just by reading a book about it once or twice and never putting it through its paces. Try doing this with a calculus textbook. Go on, I'll wait.

Valette-Serafina said:
...I am a person, and can have feelings about things I was emotionally and financially invested in.

Why the fuck are you arguing against that?

Because you're acting like a child who won't even try his dinner because he doesn't like the way it looks.

Valette-Serafina said:
I'm fairly sure I was quite clear about why I didn't switch.

Let's look at the resources each player and I, the storyteller, need to keep track of in a combat encounter.

In Ex2, that's Motes, WP, Health Levels, and sometimes Virtue Channels. If my players are being silly buggers, Banked Attacks. And Speed, before I houseruled that away.

In E, that's Motes, WP, Anima level, Health Levels, Charm Reset status, and Initiative. Looks about the same? It's not, given that nearly every bloody charm has a different reset condition, Initiative is bouncing around everywhere by design, and I only have so many tokens for NPCs.

I am one person. How the flying fuck am I supposed to run a full Wyld Hunt like this? I'm sure it's wonderful for PvP, or a situation where the players fully understand how their charms work, but I run games in the real world.

I've addressed these exact complaints before earlier in the thread. Get different-colored tokens to represent your resources. Have the players put their purchased charms on a set of flash cards for easy reference. Players track their own anima levels, motes, WP, health levels and initiative and you do so only for NPCs. A Wyld Hunt is represented by a single battle group and maybe two or three dragonbloods most of the time. I'm not even a GM and even I can think of this shit.

Valette-Serafina said:
We got the E craft system, as well. Go on, defend that!

If I ever get the itch to make a craft character then I'll be sure to give you all of my very intelligent and informed opinions on the subject. Don't hold your breath though since I don't play craft characters outside of Kamidori Alchemy Meister and the Atelier series.

Serafina said:
60+ charms?
Even an Essence 5 Solar can not POSSIBLY have all of them. You're Essence 5 at 300 XP. Thats 37 charms, plus the ones you start out with. Even if you focus your character fully on Craft, you won't even have most of the Craftcharms by the time you're Essence 5.

Protip: most characters aren't supposed to have all the charms in a tree. Doing so is a sign of a person who is crazy-focused on being the greatest X in Creation to the exclusion of applying his divine power to any other field.

Nervaqus987 · Feb 3, 2016

Smuthunter said:
No. Emphatically no. You can't understand any complex system just by reading a book about it once or twice and never putting it through its paces. Try doing this with a calculus textbook. Go on, I'll wait.

This assumes I only read the book once or twice and didn't go over the mechanics multiple times, sat on things a few days, then went back and reread.

Hint.

Smuthunter · Feb 3, 2016

Nervaqus987 said:
This assumes I only read the book once or twice and didn't go over the mechanics multiple times, sat on things a few days, then went back and reread.

Hint.

I'm waiting for you to tell me what your experience in playing the game is, not how long you spent not playing it.

Drak4806 · Feb 3, 2016

Valette-Serafina said:
In core. More will be released, and I daresay that evocations will have some. This is an unacceptable level of bloat in Core.

I think the devs said they weren't going to release new charms like in Ex2. Whatever charms are in the coresplat books are it.

Sydonai · Feb 3, 2016

Drak4806 said:
I think the devs said they weren't going to release new charms like in Ex2. Whatever charms are in the coresplat books are it.

Horseshit.
I give them two months after releasing the core book, and that's being generous.

Yzarc · Feb 3, 2016

Didn't they say that they are going to release new Occult Charms that are connected to Workings in the Sorcery Book?

Exalted – Paths of Brigid: Brigid, Twilight Caste Solar Exalted, Mother of Sorcery, champion of the Divine Rebellion and first generation Solar Exalted, died over four thousand years ago, at the start of the First Age. Hundreds of years after the death of Brigid, the Zenith sorceress Salina set out to write her biography. The resulting book was the Paths of Brigid. Salina's magnum opus is a rich Exalted 3rd Edition exploration of a thousand obscure and occulted rituals of sorcery presented as a history of sorcery while providing players with myriad new sorcerous rituals, sorcerous Charms, and spells of the Emerald, Sapphire, and Adamant Circles of Sorcery. It is an in-depth look at sorcery in a very non-standard format, covering expanded sorcery systems in addition to adding new spells to the libraries of Creation's sorcerers. 160 pages. PDF/PoD.

Doesn't say Solar Charms but are introducing new charms.

Anasurimbor · Feb 3, 2016

Smuthunter said:
Protip: most characters aren't supposed to have all the charms in a tree. Doing so is a sign of a person who is crazy-focused on being the greatest X in Creation to the exclusion of applying his divine power to any other field.

I'm not entirely unsympathetic to this argument, but Craft is still huge and complicated. It just feels like a bit much. Plus, it's hording ~~charms~~ word count and space which could be better used by other more deserving Abilities. Dodge, perhaps, or even War, though those... don't urgently need anything that I can think of. Performance, now, that has some glaring holes. There's an acting tree, with a separate subsection and everything— which consists solely of a single charm. It's practically screaming "feel free to add some stuff here".

Also, they discussed how Solars can shatter bones with a shout— then inexplicably forgot to actually include such a charm. There's Demon Wracking Shout, which slaughters armies, but only of demons or other spiritual beings whose very existence is a crime against righteousness— ghosts, faeries, nameless forgotten horrors, and corrupt gods.

Yzarc · Feb 3, 2016

Well, they essentially made charms for Specialities in certain places and not for the ability that they are supposed to support. Like that Dance or Sex charms. This is not including that charm that gives you dice for being underground.

Valette-Serafina · Feb 3, 2016

Smuthunter said:
Because you're acting like a child who won't even try his dinner because he doesn't like the way it looks.

Ever try Fugu? I don't need to try some things to know that I don't want to.

I've addressed these exact complaints before earlier in the thread. Get different-colored tokens to represent your resources. Have the players put their purchased charms on a set of flash cards for easy reference. Players track their own anima levels, motes, WP, health levels and initiative and you do so only for NPCs. A Wyld Hunt is represented by a single battle group and maybe two or three dragonbloods most of the time. I'm not even a GM and even I can think of this shit.

And now you're hypocrite and condescending! Wonderful, how very impressive!

Protip: Don't assume that a GM with more than five years of experience can't tell how a system will work in play by reading it. I make systems for quick games. Dissect others for parts, change rules to fit games. I understand how they work. I was reading rulebooks for fun when I was twelve.

You say complex? That's part of what I'm judging. If I need to reread parts, my players will, inevitably, need them explained more than once. If I cannot memorise a system, I'll need to refer back to it in play. If the index is terrible, then mid-game referencing will slow things to a crawl.

If there are charms that provide additional rolls, they will be used. Tell me, is two higher than one? Do I need to test that in a game? No, because that's basic math. So? Rolling twice will take longer than rolling once.
Now look at Inner Eye Focus. Look at Lightning Speed. Sensory Acuity Prana. Awakening Eye. Eye of the Unconquered Sun. Adamantine Fists of Battle. River-Binding Wrath. Orichalcum Fists of Battle. Flawless Handiwork Method. First Movement of the Demiurge. Cup Boils Over. Lore-Inducing Concentration. Excellent Strike. Masterful Performance Exercise. Coursing Firebolt Flash. Salty Dog Method. Immortal Mariner's Advantage. Unimpeachable Discourse Technique. Knowing the Soul's Price. Unshakeable Bloodhound Technique. Bestial Traits Technique. Ambush Predator Style. Eye-Deceiving Camouflage. Swarm-Culling Instinct. Flying Steel Ruse. Four Glories Meditation. Invoking the Chimera's Coils.

Can you guess what all those charms have in common? It's not just that they're reroll charms.

Is it going to take time for my players, and me, to count out how many threes we rolled, and how many extra successes they give us? What about how many chains of 4-5-6 showed up?

Do you think that just might slow down play?

The issues are quite obvious. Right there on the surface. And then I take a closer look, and I find that they go all the way down. There's silly little nonsense like how Martial Arts work, for example.
I want to learn Steel Devil Style, an Armed-Only martial art? Well, I'd best be good enough at punching people!

And as for your ideas? It doesn't work that way in real life. I do not have players committed enough to put together twenty+ flashcards, I do not have enough tokens, and I cannot rely on my players keeping track of their condition alone: I need the information, because some of it can be seen by NPCs. This is basic shit. I. Need. To. Know.

If I am not aware of my player's conditions and available resources, I cannot adapt the game properly. I cannot decide on the correct actions for NPCs. I cannot advise now players. This is the difference between a player and a storyteller: I need to keep track of everything, because I am running the game.

As for a wyld hunt, you've clearly never seen what they're supposed to be like.

If I ever get the itch to make a craft character then I'll be sure to give you all of my very intelligent and informed opinions on the subject.

Don't make promises you can't keep.

Drak4806 said:
I think the devs said they weren't going to release new charms like in Ex2. Whatever charms are in the coresplat books are it.

They also said that it'd be out last year.

Jarudazuigu · Feb 3, 2016

On the issue of craft and martial arts. I always disliked Exalted take on martial arts so nothing much changed here. Still dislike.
Craft on the other hand? New Sorcery is fun. Sorcerous Workings are loads of fun!

I ignored the Craft rules, as boring, and left only the mundane basics and used Sorcerous Working as replacement. Also Charms person can develop with Artifacts, the so-called Evocations. Fun.

Valette-Serafina said:
...That's not how EXP works in Exalted.

Also, if you're playing with murderhobos, that's the problem. Stop doing that.

Murderhobos were the best Players I ever had. Motivating and entertaining them with my scenarios was simple.
Lets agree to disagree, we simply have very different view on what's flawed with Exalted, as a game system.

Valette-Serafina said:
I'll not argue that the system doesn't have flaws, but a more powerful and skilled Exalt having an advantage against a less powerful and skilled one is not among them.
As for threats, you're quite simply wrong there.

Exalted is based of WoD. Where combat is made to be semi-realistic deadly. With a bit of tactical thinking you can defeat most foes. Rest, you brute-force.

Valette-Serafina said:
Three Dragonblooded, and a large squad of mortal Archers.

Really? It is what it boils down towards for you? How many X takes to kill Y?

Because for me it's a problem not of numbers but of "This dude could be kingdom's best swordsman on his best day ... but it doesn't matter. Average Exalt ignores him because he's just mortal and will die without dice-adders."

Valette-Serafina said:
...You have completely misunderstood how Exaltation works. Each and every Exalt is an outstanding person.
Yes, even the Dragonblooded.

I don't see it. After reading about canon Exalts, when I remove Exaltation from the equation I see random person. Not Exceptional person.
Unless you mean that tiny, and apparently not heeded to, bit of flavor text about "how" Exaltation picks a host? Truthfully speaking it is just a Lottery. Nothing more.

Except Dragon-Blooded, but hey majority of them are average. Exceptions do follow and make their representatives special. Like Her Redness.

Valette-Serafina said:
Good and Evil are subjective. That is the understanding that Exalted is written with.

I distinctively remember saying good and evil. Without capital letters. Unless you claim that platonic ideals are subjective.

I can see we don't see each other here but shout at clouds, so lets drop the topic.

Valette-Serafina said:
I see what your problem with Exalted is. It's you.

*claps hands repeatedly*

Thank you for reverting to name-calling when you can't rebuke someone properly.
Lets drop it, it doesn't hold merit when we don't seem to be even in the same room of the House of Understanding.

Valette-Serafina said:
Most people think that Slavery is wrong. Don't you?

I say that I don't believe things till I check myself. Can slavery be wrong? Obviously. I am uncomfortable with putting my livehood in other person's hands.
Can I imagine that there could be someone who would be comfortable and content being sort of property? With effort, but there are all sorts of people.

I hoped you understood what I meant by my words there, but my hope is dashed when you revert to mantra-ing "Slavery is wrong!".
Why? Because mindless repeating of even common sense turns it into dogma. Wich often leads to looking down on people who don't share your dogmas.
Wich, in your domgatic mind, lessens them ... and that makes thought-leap of doing things to not-people that would be wrong doing to people is ok if it's not-people.

Very easy.

Valette-Serafina said:
Indeed. And what they do with their power is what defines the Exalted.

My point is ... I don't see heroic side of the Exalts, like at all. All I see is random people going bat-shit-insane with power.

Me or you would be same deal were one of us suddenly win Exaltation Lottery.

Valette-Serafina said:
None of them are Average.

Remove the powers. See what's left. If what's left is an exceptional person, we are in agreement.
If someone random? You will see my point of annoyance with Exalts.

On the note, I don't have big problems with Exalted-the game. I do have problems with Exalts themselves. Especially the representative Solars.
One of the best Exalted games, and longest lasting ones, I ever DM-ed was without a single Exalt in the group.
And the people there faced odds you usually pit Exalted against. And you know what? With tactical thinking and clever use of available resources they won.
Thus reinforcing my point of original annoyance: It is not an Exaltation that makes a Hero.
Authors paid lip service to that thought ... but they then written their core NPCs in a way that states "Exaltation made that semi-obviously random person, a hero."

Yzarc · Feb 3, 2016

Jarudazuigu said:
I say that I don't believe things till I check myself. Can slavery be wrong? Obviously. I am uncomfortable with putting my livehood in other person's hands.
Can I imagine that there could be someone who would be comfortable and content being sort of property? With effort, but there are all sorts of people.

You are describing stockholm syndrome or something similar to it. If you want it to become disturbing? Replace Slavery with Rape.

Smuthunter · Feb 3, 2016

Valette-Serafina said:
Ever try Fugu? I don't need to try some things to know that I don't want to.

E

isn't going to kill you you enormous drama llama. Try a metaphor that actually demonstrates your point next time.

Valette-Serafina said:
Protip: Don't assume that a GM with more than five years of experience can't tell how a system will work in play by reading it. I make systems for quick games. Dissect others for parts, change rules to fit games. I understand how they work. I was reading rulebooks for fun when I was twelve.

Which is irrelevant because none of that experience is with E

. Your massive throbbing hateboner is not a valid replacement for live-fire testing, of which you've done none.

Valette-Serafina said:
You say complex? That's part of what I'm judging. If I need to reread parts, my players will, inevitably, need them explained more than once. If I cannot memorise a system, I'll need to refer back to it in play. If the index is terrible, then mid-game referencing will slow things to a crawl.

That's true with every printed RPG. I suppose you also refuse to play D&D because you need to stop and look up what spells do every time the wizard takes his turn?

Valette-Serafina said:
Is it going to take time for my players, and me, to count out how many threes we rolled, and how many extra successes they give us? What about how many chains of 4-5-6 showed up?

Do you think that just might slow down play?

No, because I don't see these charms being used by every player on every turn. Even if they were, you need to test them out to see how the new combat system flows now that it's been cut down from the ten steps it used to be, I'd wager even with rerolls it'll still be faster and more streamlined than the old system.

Valette-Serafina said:
And as for your ideas? It doesn't work that way in real life. I do not have players committed enough to put together twenty+ flashcards, I do not have enough tokens, and I cannot rely on my players keeping track of their condition alone: I need the information, because some of it can be seen by NPCs. This is basic shit. I. Need. To. Know.

Then that's a problem with your group, not with my solution. If they can't be assed to put a little effort into their game instead of making you do all the work then you have my sympathies for having lazy players.

Valette-Serafina · Feb 3, 2016

Jarudazuigu said:
Murderhobos were the best Players I ever had. Motivating and entertaining them with my scenarios was simple.
Lets agree to disagree, we simply have very different view on what's flawed with Exalted, as a game system.

If you enjoy running a game for murderhobos, do not complain about the murder.

Exalted is based of WoD. Where combat is made to be semi-realistic deadly. With a bit of tactical thinking you can defeat most foes. Rest, you brute-force.

No, it isn't. Both systems run on storyteller, but they use different adaptations of it.

Really? It is what it boils down towards for you? How many X takes to kill Y?

Apparently that matters to you, given that it's what you were talking about.

Because for me it's a problem not of numbers but of "This dude could be kingdom's best swordsman on his best day ... but it doesn't matter. Average Exalt ignores him because he's just mortal and will die without dice-adders."

Assuming the average Exalt has a moderate combat investment, the kingdom's best swordsman losing to one of the world's best sword/ax/spear/hammer wielders, or martial artists, or archers, or assassins...
Not really all that implausible. Give the second person Magic? Obviously the Exalt has the edge. They move faster, with more grace and precision. They hit harder, they can crack stone with their footsteps. They can shatter the finest steel, react to attacks they cannot see.

Superhuman power on top of the pinnacle of human skill is better than almost pinnacle human skill. 5 in a combat skill, something most player Exalts have, is the utter limit of human mastery.

I don't see it. After reading about canon Exalts, when I remove Exaltation from the equation I see random person. Not Exceptional person.
Unless you mean that tiny, and apparently not heeded to, bit of flavor text about "how" Exaltation picks a host? Truthfully speaking it is just a Lottery. Nothing more.

If you ignore the details about the setting, of course you'll be wrong about how it works. Tell me, which of the signature Solars is a normal person, again? The Lunars? The Sidereals?

Except Dragon-Blooded, but hey majority of them are average. Exceptions do follow and make their representatives special. Like Her Redness.

Again, your standard of average is very, very off. Each and every Terrestrial of the Realm is held to a standard: A standard that most people cannot match.

I distinctively remember saying good and evil. Without capital letters. Unless you claim that platonic ideals are subjective.

If you wish to criticize my habit of unneeded capitalization, I would request that you make absolutely certain that your own spelling and punctuation is of a higher standard.

*claps hands repeatedly*

Thank you for reverting to name-calling when you can't rebuke someone properly.

If you choose to diminish the setting in your mind, the problem is in you. Not the setting.

I say that I don't believe things till I check myself. Can slavery be wrong? Obviously. I am uncomfortable with putting my livehood in other person's hands.
Can I imagine that there could be someone who would be comfortable and content being sort of property? With effort, but there are all sorts of people.

Historically, slavery has always been accompanied by abuse on a massive scale. If I wish to pick an institutionalised evil for the sake of making a point, there are few better choices.

I hoped you understood what I meant by my words there, but my hope is dashed when you revert to mantra-ing "Slavery is wrong!".

Is it not?

Why? Because mindless repeating of even common sense turns it into dogma. Wich often leads to looking down on people who don't share your dogmas.
Wich, in your domgatic mind, lessens them ... and that makes thought-leap of doing things to not-people that would be wrong doing to people is ok if it's not-people.

This is rather hard to decipher.

From what I can gather, "Having a moral code is bad, because it might lead to you thinking that people who do things you think are bad deserve less than people who do things you think are good, and that might lead to depersonalization"?

Are you telling me that it's wrong to look down on slavers and rapists?

My point is ... I don't see heroic side of the Exalts, like at all. All I see is random people going bat-shit-insane with power.

Me or you would be same deal were one of us suddenly win Exaltation Lottery.

So, Panther, a legendary martial artist and veteran pit fighter who turned his back on a life of decadence and was Exalted for it, a man who travels the world aspiring to bring righteousness with him, a man who fights gods and frees slaves...
He's just some random Joe to you.

Harmonious Jade, an assassin raised from birth to kill for a demon cult, is a normal person.

Black Ice Shadow, a child born in a shadowland and raised by gods, trained to bring balance to the world but shunned by his peers, he is normal.

The Maiden of the Mirthless Smile, a girl who heard the whispers of the dead creators of the world all her life, a woman who sought out a dread necromancer on a whim, she is normal.

Where the hell do you live, if this is your standard? Australia?

Remove the powers. See what's left. If what's left is an exceptional person, we are in agreement.
If someone random? You will see my point of annoyance with Exalts.

In most cases, you take the Exaltation and what's left is a person with at least one virtue at 3 or higher and most likely one or more 5 dot ability(s). That is exceptional. That is a person who has a true mastery of a field, and some strong emotional drive.

If you don't think that's anything special, then you're also arguing that Olympic athletes and rocket scientists are just random people.

Smuthunter said:
E isn't going to kill you you enormous drama llama. Try a metaphor that actually demonstrates your point next time.

Alright. I see no problem with turning up my nose when presented with rancid dogshit on a plate. I do not need to try a bite to know that I want something better.

Which is irrelevant because none of that experience is with E. Your massive throbbing hateboner is not a valid replacement for live-fire testing, of which you've done none.

Not going to dispute the Hypocrite thing, huh?

You can keep howling your baseless argument to the heavens, but E

is nothing special. It's a roleplaying game, like any other roleplaying game, and I can see the flaws in the system clear as day.

Your argument also says that an experienced mountain climber cannot identify a bad handhold by sight, only by testing it with their weight. It is the argument that a chef cannot identify bad ingredients before making them into a meal.

I am not testing a recipe, I am looking at a mechanical system, numbers and rules. If I can see a flaw here, it exists. If anything, play will show more flaws, not less.

That's true with every printed RPG. I suppose you also refuse to play D&D because you need to stop and look up what spells do every time the wizard takes his turn?

No. D&D has a good index, and spells are alphabetised. I do advise new players not to play Wizard-type casters, though.

I make certain to memorize the most common spells, too. And the damage for the most common weapons.

If I'm running a quick game, I'll disallow primary casters.

No, because I don't see these charms being used by every player on every turn. Even if they were, you need to test them out to see how the new combat system flows now that it's been cut down from the ten steps it used to be, I'd wager even with rerolls it'll still be faster and more streamlined than the old system.

Excellent Strike is three motes. With mote regeneration, that's something that can be thrown out almost every attack. It is a basic, easy to access charm, and something that most players will want if they use melee.
Orichalcum Fists of Battle is scene-long.
Four Glories Meditation is Permanent.

As for attack steps, let's take a look at what they actually are.

Ex2: 1) Declare attack and charms used, stunt. 2) Declare Defence and charms used, Stunt. 3) Attacker rolls. 4) Attacker rerolls, if using one of the few charms that provide a reroll. 5) Penalties are applied to the attacker's roll, with DV applying last. 6) Exists specificly for charms that activate in step 6, as DV is not rolled. 7) Raw damage is calculated. 8) Hardness and Soak are applied. 9) Counterattack Charms activate. 10) Damage is rolled and applied.

E

: 1) Attack is declared. Withering/Decisive is decided. Stunt. Some charms declared.
Withering attack steps: 2) Defence is declared. Stunt. Some charms declared. 3)Attacker rolls. 4) Attacker's partial reroll charms lead to second, third, and possibly fourth rolls. If the defender is using a high priority charm that uses the attacker's 1's for something, that is used here. 5) Attacker decides whether or not to use a total reroll charm. If they do, steps 3-5 are repeated. 6) Defence and penalties are applied. 7) Raw damage is calculated. 8)Soak is applied. 9) Damage is rolled. 10) Attacker's partial damage reroll charms are used. 11) Initiative changes are calculated and applied.
Decisive attack steps: 2) Defence is declared. Stunt. Some charms declared. 3)Attacker rolls. 4) Attacker's partial reroll charms lead to second, third, and possibly fourth rolls. If the defender is using a high priority charm that uses the attacker's 1's for something, that is used here. 5) Attacker decides whether or not to use a total reroll charm. If they do, steps 3-5 are repeated. 6) Defence and penalties are applied. 7)Hardness is applied. 8) Damage is rolled. 9) Damage rerolls. 10) Damage is applied. Attacker's initiative resets.

Add one step to both of those, by the way. Counterattacks still exist, but they don't seem to have a set place in attack resolution anymore.

So, which has fewer steps, again?

Then that's a problem with your group, not with my solution. If they can't be assed to put a little effort into their game instead of making you do all the work then you have my sympathies for having lazy players.

Flashcards are not "a little" effort, and that is the only issue that my players could resolve.

Smuthunter · Feb 3, 2016

Valette-Serafina said:
Alright. I see no problem with turning up my nose when presented with rancid dogshit on a plate. I do not need to try a bite to know that I want something better.

That's better. You're still incapable of judging it without playing it.

Valette-Serafina said:
Not going to dispute the Hypocrite thing, huh?

Not going to dignify an ad hominem attack, no.

You can keep howling your baseless argument to the heavens, but E is nothing special. It's a roleplaying game, like any other roleplaying game, and I can see the flaws in the system clear as day.

Your argument also says that an experienced mountain climber cannot identify a bad handhold by sight, only by testing it with their weight. It is the argument that a chef cannot identify bad ingredients before making them into a meal.

Both of the above examples have experience in relevant fields. You have no experience with E

. You are a rank amateur trying to claim mastery of a subject you've never touched before.

Valette-Serafina said:
Excellent Strike is three motes. With mote regeneration, that's something that can be thrown out almost every attack. It is a basic, easy to access charm, and something that most players will want if they use melee.

They'll also be wanting to use all of their other charms, not just the same one turn in and turn out. The mote economy influences player behavior and which charms get chosen on which turns depending on the situation.

This is exactly what I'm talking about: you present theorycrafting and white room scenarios as evidence when those scenarios don't reflect the way people actually play games.

Valette-Serafina said:
So, which has fewer steps, again?

So apparently you didn't even read the corebook. It's four steps for whithering attacks and four steps for decisive attacks.

Withering:
1) Roll your dicepool to attack.
2) Add up weapon damage + strength + threshold successes to calculate raw damage. Weapon damage + strength is going to be a static number most of the time so really this is just your base damage plus extra successes.
3) Subtract target's soak from damage and roll a number of dice equal to whatever is left over.
4) Calculate the initiative exchange.

Decisive:
1) Roll Dex+Ability against the target's defense.
2) Roll a dicepool of your current initiative.
3) Count successes and apply an equal amount of damage.
4) Reset to base initiative if the attack was successful.

Charms may occasionally add another step or two or the occasional reroll but as I already pointed out you won't be using the same charms on every turn thanks to the limits of the mote economy. And the amount of time a reroll adds to the process is insignificant in any event. What, two seconds to pick a die up and drop it back on the table is somehow a big deal to you?

Valette-Serafina · Feb 4, 2016

Smuthunter said:
That's better. You're still incapable of judging it without playing it.

Both of the above examples have experience in relevant fields. You have no experience with E. You are a rank amateur trying to claim mastery of a subject you've never touched before.

What part of running games for more than five years did you miss?

E

is not some miraculous, new subject. It is a roleplaying game, that runs on the storyteller system.
I know roleplaying games, and I have significant experience in using storyteller system games.

You, on the other hand, are by your own admission not a gamemaster.

Maybe I should try and give you another argument, though. Demonstrate the flaw in your reasoning undeniably.

Can that vehicle fly? I have my own opinion on the subject, but I want yours.

They'll also be wanting to use all of their other charms, not just the same one turn in and turn out. The mote economy influences player behavior and which charms get chosen on which turns depending on the situation.

This is exactly what I'm talking about: you present theorycrafting and white room scenarios as evidence when those scenarios don't reflect the way people actually play games.

Guess how the mote economy changed in E

! If you guessed that it didn't, you were wrong.

With an established mote regeneration that requires nothing, Charms are even more usable! Yes, that's right, using more than one charm a turn is encouraged!

SO, using my experience of what players will want, what kinds of charms will see frequent use? Perhaps the ones that make attacks more likely to hit? Maybe the ones that improve damage? As a player, I know that I'd use both quite a bit.

Why look, it seems that some of those those charms fit the "Easy access, low cost" requirement for frequent use. I guess that they'll be used whenever a player can spare the motes! After all, Motes regenerate on a player's turn, and most players hate to waste a resource like that.

Certainly, you can construct a situation where a player might not want to use a charm that enhances their attack. In actual gameplay, charms get used.

So apparently you didn't even read the corebook. It's four steps for whithering attacks and four steps for decisive attacks.

Now, see, that's funny. I had the backer PDF open when I made my last post, and I double-checked. And y'know what? They made the same mistake you're making. Let me just correct you, In Red.

Ooops, looks like you missed a step. Who are you attacking? You need to declare that, or you're not attacking anyone! Attack type, target, and stunt go before the roll, every time. That's a step!
Withering:
1) Roll your dicepool to attack. Wow, you even missed something that was in E core! I'm impressed!
Protip, after the attack roll the defender gets to declare their defence. Oh, and that's ignoring all the reroll steps that you have to include if you're comparing this to Ex2!
2) Add up weapon damage + strength + threshold successes to calculate raw damage. Weapon damage + strength is going to be a static number most of the time so really this is just your base damage plus extra successes. Yep. And Charms. And Evocations. And maybe also circumstantial bonuses, too!
3) Subtract target's soak from damage and roll a number of dice equal to whatever is left over. Don't forget the Rerolls!
4) Calculate the initiative exchange.
1/10, nice try, but you really need to check your source a little harder. Oh, and maybe think a little about how it'll actually work in play, too.

Decisive:
1) Roll Dex+Ability against the target's defense. I see you remembered this time! But remember, the defender's declaration of defence is also a step.
2) Roll a dicepool of your current initiative. Charms can modify this, remember! And you forgot rerolls again.
3) Count successes and apply an equal amount of damage. Unless a charm changes that. Also, remember rerolls!
4) Reset to base initiative if the attack was successful.
2/10. Better, but still just regurgitating propaganda without thinking about what it means.

Oh, and you forgot counterattacks. Remember, they have their own keyword, they are an important part of the system.

See? Much better. Now scroll up and look at the actual steps. Compare Ex2 and E

, and remember that if you're going to skip a step in one, you need to skip that step in the other to accurately measure how streamlined they are in comparison.

Charms may occasionally add another step or two or the occasional reroll but as I already pointed out you won't be using the same charms on every turn thanks to the limits of the mote economy.

My, my, you really aren't thinking about this at all. Just because you can say mote economy doesn't mean you know how it works.

So, let me explain something. Every turn, each Exalt who's fighting gets five motes. That means that any expenditure of less than five motes is free. Every turn, every player will want to spend at least five motes, to get the full value of that ongoing recharge. It is a free resource.

Spending more than five motes is something that will happen in any game which isn't white room optimised. Players will want to use their powers. Given that they have a reserve motepool, they will dip into it. Perhaps, some turns, they'll take a few moments to refill their pool, but for the most part, Players will be spending motes.

Now, they'll want cheap charms that have big results. Let's look at Swarm-Culling Instinct as an example.

Swarm-Culling Instinct costs two motes, and supplements a join battle roll. It is Essence 2, Thrown 4, and has four prerequisites. It is likely to end up in the hands of a thrown-focused character very quickly.

It triggers a cascading reroll if the player using it rolls any tens, allowing them to reroll one non-success dice per ten. If the rerolled dice show a ten, that's another die that can be rerolled.
You might say "That's a one in ten chance, that shouldn't be a problem." That would betray a lack of experience in roleplaying, however. It is white room logic, which you profess to dismiss. In actual gameplay, I have seen a player roll fifteen dice and get fifteen tens. That was a thing that I saw happen, after he rolled nine and got eight the session before.
Additionally, it allows the player to make (Dexterity) instant attacks provided each attack is aimed at a different opponant. As someone who has actual experience running games, I read that as (5, maybe 4) attacks. Each attack is rolled separately, and may be enhanced.

This is a cheap, useful Charm. If a player has it, there is no reason for them not to use it at every opportunity. Even being low on motes is no reason to do so, because if it's the only charm they use that turn, they regain three motes.

Let's look at Excellent Strike, as a second example. It's a nice, simple Melee Charm. No prerequisite Charms, at the bottom of a number of nice trees, Melee 2, Essence 1. Any Solar who has even a little interest in picking up a sword can get this, and it's always going to be useful.
Three mote cost, which means that if they only have a few combat charms, this one will see a lot of use. If, on the other hand, they have lots of combat charms, this one will still be a nice option.

What does it do? It makes it impossible to botch. All 1s are rerolled until there are no 1s, and the attack gets an automatic success. That sounds useful, right? One success is worth two motes by the Excellency scale, and this one becomes more powerful the more dice are rolled.

That's just a surface look, though. I look deeper. Excellent Strike has a special interaction with Iron Whirlwind Attack, you see. It only needs to be activated once to be applicable to every attack in the flurry. Assuming the Player who decided to use that charm was thinking, that's between three and five attacks that reroll 1s until 1s stop appearing, for a cost of 8m, 1wp.

And the amount of time a reroll adds to the process is insignificant in any event. What, two seconds to pick a die up and drop it back on the table is somehow a big deal to you?

Allocate perhaps fifteen seconds for the first roll, more if more dice are being rolled. Each of them needs to be counted. For each die that needs rerolling, that's at least one second.

This adds up. It slows down play. I know how this works. E

does not have some magical aura that makes rerolling dice faster or more streamlined. Dice are dice, and they will always behave like dice regardless of the system they're used with.

A dice pool system will always need to focus on simplicity of rolling, because it's intrinsically less efficient than rolling one die and checking it. E

does not.

kinglugia · Feb 4, 2016

SWLIHN will have fits trying to calculate E

stuff, I guess. Or maybe ssomeone could program something to do all the rolls calculation.

Smuthunter · Feb 4, 2016

Valette-Serafina said:
What part of running games for more than five years did you miss?

When did you miss the part where it's not relevant to playing E

?

Valette-Serafina said:
E is not some miraculous, new subject. It is a roleplaying game, that runs on the storyteller system.
I know roleplaying games, and I have significant experience in using storyteller system games.

You have no experience with E

. Your experiences with Scion or WoD or what the hell ever are of no relevance.

Valette-Serafina said:
Maybe I should try and give you another argument, though. Demonstrate the flaw in your reasoning undeniably.

Can that vehicle fly? I have my own opinion on the subject, but I want yours.

False equivalence fallacy. My argument is that you cannot grasp the working of a complex system solely by observation and no personal experience. A car is a system we both have extensive personal knowledge of and whether it can fly or not is a simple answer even for an uneducated layman. What you are claiming is that you can read the manufacturer's manual for that go-kart a few times and -- using only that knowledge -- understand how it works in intimate mechanical detail down to how the individual components affect the performance of the whole machine as well as whether a component is defective or not. I on the other hand am insisting that you need to have actually disassembled and reassembled the machine in question in order to obtain that degree of competence. And while I'm not a gamemaster, I fix cellphones and other delicate electronics for a living so I know something about what it takes to gain that kind of familiarity with a complex system.

Valette-Serafina said:
Guess how the mote economy changed in E! If you guessed that it didn't, you were wrong.

With an established mote regeneration that requires nothing, Charms are even more usable! Yes, that's right, using more than one charm a turn is encouraged!

SO, using my experience of what players will want, what kinds of charms will see frequent use? Perhaps the ones that make attacks more likely to hit? Maybe the ones that improve damage? As a player, I know that I'd use both quite a bit.

Why look, it seems that some of those those charms fit the "Easy access, low cost" requirement for frequent use. I guess that they'll be used whenever a player can spare the motes! After all, Motes regenerate on a player's turn, and most players hate to waste a resource like that.

Certainly, you can construct a situation where a player might not want to use a charm that enhances their attack. In actual gameplay, charms get used.

The problem is they'll also be wanting to use their athletics and dodge and stealth and resistance and all their other combat-applicable charms in addition to whatever their melee/archery/whatever charms are plus taking advantage of the bonus dice from their free excellencies. 5m per turn isn't nearly enough to cover an all-out attack and defense on every turn even if the excellency is all you're using, so motes remain a finite resource.

Valette-Serafina said:
They made the same mistake you're making.

So now you're claiming you know the system better than the people who built it from the ground up. Does your arrogance know no limits?

Valette-Serafina said:
My, my, you really aren't thinking about this at all. Just because you can say mote economy doesn't mean you know how it works.

So, let me explain something. Every turn, each Exalt who's fighting gets five motes. That means that any expenditure of less than five motes is free. Every turn, every player will want to spend at least five motes, to get the full value of that ongoing recharge. It is a free resource.

Spending more than five motes is something that will happen in any game which isn't white room optimised. Players will want to use their powers. Given that they have a reserve motepool, they will dip into it. Perhaps, some turns, they'll take a few moments to refill their pool, but for the most part, Players will be spending motes.

You're forgetting about excellencies. You can spend up to ten motes just augmenting your attack for a single roll and another ten augmenting your defense, and that's only against a single attack from a single enemy because the defense boost is reflexive. Add charms on top of that and suddenly 5m per turn doesn't look like such a big deal anymore.

Valette-Serafina said:
Allocate perhaps fifteen seconds for the first roll, more if more dice are being rolled. Each of them needs to be counted. For each die that needs rerolling, that's at least one second.

I use an Android app called Dice Roller. Plug in the number of dice, select the d-size, add a modifier if necessary, push button and bam, instant die rolls organized neatly from largest to smallest result.

Valette-Serafina · Feb 4, 2016

Smuthunter said:
When did you miss the part where it's not relevant to playing E?

You have no experience with E. Your experiences with Scion or WoD or what the hell ever are of no relevance.

Do you know just how many mechanics are crossed over? Motes, Excellencies, the basic assembly of a dice pool...

This is not. A. Special. Game. It uses mechanics I have seen before. It uses systems that are quite familiar. I can see how it ticks, where the stress points are, how it will break in play.

False equivalence fallacy. My argument is that you cannot grasp the working of a complex system solely by observation and no personal experience. A car is a system we both have extensive personal knowledge of and whether it can fly or not is a simple answer even for an uneducated layman. What you are claiming is that you can read the manufacturer's manual for that go-kart a few times and -- using only that knowledge -- understand how it works in intimate mechanical detail down to how the individual components affect the performance of the whole machine as well as whether a component is defective or not. I on the other hand am insisting that you need to have actually disassembled and reassembled the machine in question in order to obtain that degree of competence. And while I'm not a gamemaster, I fix cellphones and other delicate electronics for a living so I know something about what it takes to gain that kind of familiarity with a complex system.

No. What you're saying, explicitly, is that until I play the game I can make no judgements at all.

By that logic, you cannot say anything about anything you have not personally used. By that same logic, until you have driven that go-cart, you cannot say whether or not it can fly.

Your metaphor is better, though. "I on the other hand am insisting that you need to have actually disassembled and reassembled the machine in question in order to obtain that degree of competence."

Yes, that's how it works. I have the system right here, on my computer. I have for months, and I've gone over it more than once. I've "Taken it apart". I am not working from second hand, I have the actual thing right here, and the components are defective.

The problem is they'll also be wanting to use their athletics and dodge and stealth and resistance and all their other combat-applicable charms in addition to whatever their melee/archery/whatever charms are plus taking advantage of the bonus dice from their free excellencies. 5m per turn isn't nearly enough to cover an all-out attack and defense on every turn even if the excellency is all you're using, so motes remain a finite resource.

One attack charm is hardly an all-out offence.

You clearly have no clue what you're talking about here, so I'll let your persistent ignorance speak for itself.

So now you're claiming you know the system better than the people who built it from the ground up. Does your arrogance know no limits?

OKAY, WE'RE DOING THIS NOW!

So, let's follow the steps you list! I roll an attack without declaring a target! I hit nothing! Wow, such system, much useful!
Now let's say it's a withering attack! According to you, it hits if I roll one success! Such Balance!
Rerolls never happen, because there's no space for that!
Defensive Charms are useless, because they don't have place to be activated!
Counterattacks, likewise, do not happen!

SEE HOW WELL THAT WORKS?

The Devs for EX3 are liars, and incompetent. That is clear from the system they made. Hiding an attack step by not giving it a number is not removing that attack step, and you should be able to see that.

You want to apply the same process to Ex2? It's four steps too!
1) Roll attack and compare to DV.
2) Calculate Damage.
3) Apply Soak+Hardness.
4) Apply total Damage.

Amazing, how much you can cram in if you're aiming to make something look simple.

So yes, I am saying that I have fucking eyes and a brain. I thought you did too, but clearly not!

You're forgetting about excellencies. You can spend up to ten motes just augmenting your attack for a single roll and another ten augmenting your defense, and that's only against a single attack from a single enemy because the defense boost is reflexive. Add charms on top of that and suddenly 5m per turn doesn't look like such a big deal anymore.

No, you can't, because you can't activate defensive Charms.
There is no step that allows you to declare or enhance your defence, as you have clearly stated. Only four steps, and none of them are for the defender.

As has been established. Motes will be spent. That is what they are for. They will be spent on useful things.

If someone spends ten motes on an Excellency for more dice, they are more likely to use a charm that makes the most of each die, not less. You would know this if you actually thought. In a version of Exalted with less accessible perfect defences, all-out attacks will be significantly more useful. Spending fifteen motes on one attack is something that the system incentives, strongly.

I use an Android app called Dice Roller. Plug in the number of dice, select the d-size, add a modifier if necessary, push button and bam, instant die rolls organized neatly from largest to smallest result.

Well jolly good for you, but that's irrelevant. You can take your overpriced electronic problem solver, shove it up your ass, and remember that not everyone is fucking rich!

Nervaqus987 · Feb 4, 2016

Smuthunter said:
You have no experience with E. Your experiences with Scion or WoD or what the hell ever are of no relevance.

Smuthunter said:
False equivalence fallacy. My argument is that you cannot grasp the working of a complex system solely by observation and no personal experience. A car is a system we both have extensive personal knowledge of and whether it can fly or not is a simple answer even for an uneducated layman. What you are claiming is that you can read the manufacturer's manual for that go-kart a few times and -- using only that knowledge -- understand how it works in intimate mechanical detail down to how the individual components affect the performance of the whole machine as well as whether a component is defective or not. I on the other hand am insisting that you need to have actually disassembled and reassembled the machine in question in order to obtain that degree of competence. And while I'm not a gamemaster, I fix cellphones and other delicate electronics for a living so I know something about what it takes to gain that kind of familiarity with a complex system.

Okay, look.

3e, at its core, is a Storyteller system. Dicepools are a number of d10s based on the combined total of your relevant Attribute and Ability. Successes are seven and up, tens count twice. The various subsystems and powers are added on top of that and provide alterations to the rules presented in the base.

It is not some brand new, never before seen game system that no one has ever used before. People understand the fundamental basics behind this because they've experienced this sort of system before, and when you have experience with a system, you can figure out how things change.

For example, my mother is a very good cook. She knows what ingredients taste like, how to prepare them, how to put them together, etc. She can look at a recipe she's never had before and can know what it would taste like and how she can tweak it to better suit her tastes. She can do this because she's been cooking for years.

This is the basically the same.

People have experience with the Storyteller system. They have spent years picking it apart and putting it back together again and know what makes it tick. They've added rules, they've removed rules, they've seen the results.

3e is not a radical departure. It does not change so much as to render all previous experience irrelevant.

If, for example, 3e had shifted to a percentile based system or a diceless system, you'd have a point about experience with other Storyteller systems not applying. But it hasn't and you don't.

Smuthunter · Feb 4, 2016

Valette-Serafina said:
Do you know just how many mechanics are crossed over? Motes, Excellencies, the basic assembly of a dice pool...

This is not. A. Special. Game. It uses mechanics I have seen before. It uses systems that are quite familiar. I can see how it ticks, where the stress points are, how it will break in play.

You think you can. I have my doubts.

Valette-Serafina said:
No. What you're saying, explicitly, is that until I play the game I can make no judgements at all.

By that logic, you cannot say anything about anything you have not personally used. By that same logic, until you have driven that go-cart, you cannot say whether or not it can fly.

Your metaphor is better, though. "I on the other hand am insisting that you need to have actually disassembled and reassembled the machine in question in order to obtain that degree of competence."

Yes, that's how it works. I have the system right here, on my computer. I have for months, and I've gone over it more than once. I've "Taken it apart". I am not working from second hand, I have the actual thing right here, and the components are defective.

What you have done is read the instruction manual, that being the core rulebook. Until you've actually played with the system you have no more ability to tell me what parts work and what parts don't than any random person off the street.

Valette-Serafina said:
No, you can't, because you can't activate defensive Charms.
There is no step that allows you to declare or enhance your defence, as you have clearly stated. Only four steps, and none of them are for the defender.

It does actually say right there in the book that all charms have to be declared before any dice are rolled. Check page 251.

Valette-Serafina said:
The Devs for EX3 are liars, and incompetent. That is clear from the system they made.

What's clear to me is that you're a deeply biased source so I'll be deciding what's broken and what's not for myself.

It's also clear to me that this argument is starting to get kind of personal, so I'm going to stop here before I start saying things I can't take back.

Valette-Serafina · Feb 4, 2016

Smuthunter said:
What you have done is read the instruction manual, that being the core rulebook. Until you've actually played with the system you have no more ability to tell me what parts work and what parts don't than any random person off the street.

...
This is not a machine. It's not a recipe. It's not a martial art.
This is a rule system.

Your inability to get one simple fact through your skull does not make you anything but dense.

It does actually say right there in the book that all charms have to be declared before any dice are rolled. Check page 251.

And as that's not part of the sequence for attacks, they cannot be used.

If charms are declared, that needs to be part of the quick attack resolution list.

What's clear to me is that you're a deeply biased source so I'll be deciding what's broken and what's not for myself.

I'm no more biased than you, unless you happen to work for Onyx Path.

It's also clear to me that this argument is starting to get kind of personal, so I'm going to stop here before I start saying things I can't take back.

Too late.

Smuthunter · Feb 4, 2016

Valette-Serafina said:
Too late.

Then I owe you an apology, I guess I let my mouth run ahead of my brain so to speak. I do honestly think your opinions on the game line have been formed very prematurely but that's a stupid reason to start slinging insults at a person I otherwise have some respect for.

Valette-Serafina · Feb 4, 2016

Smuthunter said:
Then I owe you an apology, I guess I let my mouth run ahead of my brain so to speak. I do honestly think your opinions on the game line have been formed very prematurely but that's a stupid reason to start slinging insults at a person I otherwise have some respect for.

I have the actual rulebook in my computer. The issues I am seeing are not complex misjudgements of charm interactions, though there will be such.

They are as obvious to me as a square wheel on a wheelbarrow, and just as crippling.

Plotvitalnpc · Feb 4, 2016

Can this be the end of what remains of the argument, with or without any closing consensus?
It's uncomfortable seeing tensions build like this.

Smuthunter · Feb 4, 2016

I have no intention of continuing. At this point I think Val and I are just going to agree to disagree because this whole thing has left me feeling pretty shitty and I don't think I'll be revisiting the argument in the future.

Biigoh · Feb 4, 2016

.....

Just what. -_-

Jiven · Feb 4, 2016

Hu.

I guess I will continue on my Exalted 2nd Edition game and not "upgrade" to E

.

Yzarc · Feb 4, 2016

Jiven said:
Hu.

I guess I will continue on my Exalted 2nd Edition game and not "upgrade" to E.

3E has its pros and cons. It is not to everyone's tastes. The Devs made 3E a bit too much into what they feel Exalted "should" be rather than what it "could" be.

But all that aside.....

If you are a player, then try it out. If you are an ST? Feel free to stick to 2/2.5E. 3E dumps a lot of work on the STs shoulders, but is pretty fun for the players.

Nekraa · Feb 4, 2016

Yzarc said:
3E has its pros and cons. It is not to everyone's tastes. The Devs made 3E a bit too much into what they feel Exalted "should" be rather than what it "could" be.

Understatement of the year -.-

I just wish that one could avoid all complaints every damn time 3e is brought up. Yes, we get it, you don't like it. I mean, I'm about some twenty or so pages behind in SV's exalted thread as there's just so many people ragging on 3e all the time.

Negativity and vitriol isn't fun

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