Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[Iustus Vitea]

No it isn't. Vote closes on Friday, that tally was just a test.

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Wait, it's not Friday?

Checks date

Ah my bad

 

[Greymere]

Wait's not Friday?

Checks date

Ah my bad

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Nope, gotta wait one more day

 

[Pittauro]

So, given how ponies were doing fine for the last 1000 years, doesnt Harmony get some browny points?

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There's even an argument that, very slowly, Harmony was tearing down the Tribal Door on their own without having to use the WOLF like we did.

I can easily imagine that, in a best ending like end of MLP FIM, the door would have been torn down, and/or replaced by something better.

That's if the Mansus still stood at all.

I'm kind of annoyed we then have the 5th gen mlp series and movies just showing everything falling apart just a few years to decades after... but that could easily not be canon to this setting at all.

I like to think that a victory needs two things: a door and a key.

You need to discover what the door is. You need to discover what the key is. Then you need to acquire the key and take it to the door.

Apply this to the four known victory conditions, and see for yourself how far you are from anything other than Glory. Ignore all thread-optimist while making said analysis.

That's all i am comfortable saying, if that makes sense.

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Well, for Glory we presumably found the Door, and know what the Key is. It's a difficult one to get, but we know what it is.

For Moon, we are in the process of REACHING the Door, as presumably that would be on the "mansus moon". No idea what the key would be at all.

for Harmony, presumably the "Door" would be the reunited Alicorns and maybe that research project we unlocked. Wasn't there something about the two halves reforming a bridge/door? Hard to say what the key would be.

for Wolves, the Doors are our adversities/problems, and keys are the Regrettable Actions, I'd say.

Moon ending… we suspect that the SH Sacrament getting us to the Tower is at least moving in the direction of the Door, but have no confirmation. Though I suppose it may be the Door with the Sacrament being the key. But again, we don't know. Technically 0 steps in.

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SH sacrament is a key in the same way knowing how to pass through the White or Branding Door is a key. it's just an intermediary step. the "Door" is probably on the Mansus Moon, but the key would be learning HOW to switch House of the Moon for House of the Sun, I think.

Harmony, again, we suspect the Memory of Light research will lead us to the Door, and I would assume the two Sisters are the key, but we aren't sure and definitely haven't "found them." Again, technically 0 steps.

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Alternatively, maybe the Memory of Light (Somehow I remembered it being called "path" of light) AND the Sisters are just the doors, and the key is something beyond that. After all we don't want to JUST reach Harmony, we then want to talk and teach it in that ending, or at least reach an understanding and alliance of sort.

Wolf Ending is probably, well, the Wolf itself as the Door, and a fully Stained Velvet as the key.

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that's valid too. I was thinking of the Regrettable Actions as Keys, and the problems we solve with them as Doors.

Pretty sure I mentioned it in my omake but my theory on Harmony's plot is that it is attempting to subvert the Lores with its Elements. Something similar to how Forge subverted Flint.

So basically- Laughter subverts heart, Love subverts grail, Kindness subverts winter, Honesty subverts lantern, loyalty subverts edge while Magic subverts forge.

The Dreamlands subverts the Woods. (Wonder how that's going now?)

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that's a good theory actually. Though I'd say that this is not subversion, but replacement. Subversion would be more of...

well, we know Winter subvert Edge. but Arguably Fluttershy showed that Kindness subverts Edge too, and thus Kindness replaces Winter in its role.

Lantern Subverts Moth, but with Moth being about chaos and intrigue, it's easy to see why Honesty could subvert Moth, and thus replace Lantern.

and so on.

Now to move onto my concerns of Harmony's grand plan. I have three major concerns.

First, replicating the Intercalate. The major enforcers of Harmony's plan in this are a result of it replicating the most abominable crime. Sure it seems to have worked out great but any plan that has let's replicate the situation of the birth of the Wolf-Divided as a major part is a concerning plan.

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Counter: the Intercalate was a violation, and forced. The Outsider that became the Alicorns accepted it willingly. It seems like it's a "positive" version of the Intercalate, a gentler and kinder one, kinda like how you imply Harmony's Virtues are meant to be gentler replacements for the lore principles

Second, the state of the Manus. The house of the Sun and the wake are reflections of one another. That the Manus is a ruin makes one concerned about the real state of the Wake.

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On the other hand, we already know the Dreamlands are trying to replace the Woods. If you want to rebuild a house, you first need to demolish it. Presumably there's something going on metaphysically that would move the "mansus reflects the wake, wake reflects the mansus" aspect from the Mansus itself to the Dreamlands and whatever would come later from it.

Dreamlands replaces the woods, and with a strong enough light from the dream doors and the Alicorns stops the Worms from proceeding further up. Something else would later replace the Mansus itself, maybe. Or maybe that section would just be... sort of closed off.

Third, and my most major concern is the side effects of Harmony's subversion of the Lores in regards to the worms. The Lores were used to shield the world from the worms. Heart for example is the Lore of the Great Protector of the world. Baldomare mentioned that somebody ensured some pretty powerful lore defenses got put up and otherwise the world would be Wormed. But if the defenses of the world are based on the lores what happens when that lore weakens due to Harmony's subversion efforts? That the Elements seem to have an attractive quality compared to the lores to the worms only makes things worse.

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Baldomare, to be fair, does NOT know if Harmony added similar defenses. She can't know. And the Elements of Harmony and Alicorns are able to deal with Worms in a way that seems beyond what the Lores could do, so again maybe the element virtues are meant to be a replacement better suited to deal with them.

What would be some interesting negaverse characters we could have created?

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I'm still wondering how not being a pony would change interactions with the Mansus, and particularly branding and tribal doors.

on a side note, I probably would NOT take Family again. Family has been the largest malus for us.

It's been delightful for the story, as the contrast between Velvet's goals and her trying to keep her family safe, together and on her side makes for a great story... but objectively without them we would probably have already won. We would have far more easily removed our frightened and scarred maluses, we would have been able to do more expeditions and study, we would have more confidants, and so on.

Of course our family is also a source of opportunities. Just look at how Stormchaser somehow befriended Comet, or how our little fillies captured Axe's heart.

...and I suppose Mareinette is more interested in us due to velvet being a Mother, and her being determined to have us eat Silky eventually.

 

[Iustus Vitea]

That's if the Mansus still stood at all.

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Why wouldn't it stand? This Quest runs off of CS lore so the Glory is literally the light of creation. The Wake is the reflection and rarefactions of the Glory. The Aspects aren't just fancy ways to do Magic they're the laws that govern the world, you know stuff like gravity, the strong nuclear force and all that jazz.

Baldomare, to be fair, does NOT know if Harmony added similar defenses. She can't know. And the Elements of Harmony and Alicorns are able to deal with Worms in a way that seems beyond what the Lores could do, so again maybe the element virtues are meant to be a replacement better suited to deal with them.

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Dude Harmony doesn't even know the Worms exist so that doesn't track, also I would like to once again point out the fact those are lesser Worms.

I'm still wondering how not being a pony would change interactions with the Mansus, and particularly branding and tribal doors.

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Well seeing as there isn't an Hour whose service we can enter into we'd have to sneak in through the cracks and gaps in the Walls of the Mansus like our predecessors once did.

…

Correct me If I'm wrong but the Stag Door isn't broken in this continuity is it? So that means the Lithomachy went way differently and yet also not all that different.

 

[spiderhellian]

Correct me If I'm wrong but the Stag Door isn't broken in this continuity is it? So that means the Lithomachy went way differently and yet also not all that different.

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And the Temple of Wheel stands (stood) as a proper temple!

It's actually not clear how the Lithomachy went down at all, and it seems plausible things are very different from CS canon.

 

[Pittauro]

Why wouldn't it stand? This Quest runs off of CS lore so the Glory is literally the light of creation. The Wake is the reflection and rarefactions of the Glory. The Aspects aren't just fancy ways to do Magic they're the laws that govern the world, you know stuff like gravity, the strong nuclear force and all that jazz.

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Because I wouldn't put it beyond Harmony to replace the Mansus with something else.

Or at least to change it so much it's basically the same thing.

Dude Harmony doesn't even know the Worms exist so that doesn't track, also I would like to once again point out the fact those are lesser Worms.

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Have you met Harmony and asked her?

CELESTIA does not know the Worms exist. But Celestia is not Harmony, and it's unclear just how much agency, sapiency and ability to communicate Harmony has in the first place.

For all we know Harmony DOES know about the worms, and their plan was

"I will build a light so bright
All the Worms from dark shall die"

 

[Iustus Vitea]

It's actually not clear how the Lithomachy went down at all, and it seems plausible things are very different from CS canon.

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I mean we can assume certain things went the same, the Tide was swallowed up by the Grail, the Colonel and the Mother of Ants worked together to kill the Seven-Coiled, the Horned Axe still survived and demanded that the Thunderskin be killed, the Moth erupted out from the Wheel and so on.

Because I wouldn't put it beyond Harmony to replace the Mansus with something else.

Or at least to change it so much it's basically the same thing.

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Now I don't know MLP lore so I may be wrong here. But Harmony didn't literally create the world or single handidly maintains its existence. It is not the linchpin from which all springs, in this continuity Harmony too is a reflection of the Glory and while it may rise to an Hour like status in that it is through which the Glory's light is reflected and coloured I really don't think it's going to replace the Glory.

-snip

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I mean if we're throwing things like sapience, sentience and an ability to plan right out the window then there isn't really an argument for Harmony on this basis is there? Either it knows and can't (or won't) communicate but still has a plan that's gonna fail, or it isn't capable of that degree of thought and the side effects of it's basic functioning are insufficient to protect the world.

Because the underpinning of this entire argument is that either due to ignorance or an inability to do so Harmony will fail to protect us.

Also, I feel it's a pretty safe bet to assume ignorance is the problem here because for each of the endings the broad strokes path the Master gave us has been correct; get past the Tricuspid Gate and reach Glory, get to the House of the Moon and use it to reverse the decline of the Mansus, reach Harmony tell it about the Worms and teach it to hide.

 

[Pittauro]

Now I don't know MLP lore so I may be wrong here. But Harmony didn't literally create the world or single handidly maintains its existence. It is not the linchpin from which all springs, in this continuity Harmony too is a reflection of the Glory and while it may rise to an Hour like status in that it is through which the Glory's light is reflected and coloured I really don't think it's going to replace the Glory.

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To be fair we don't quite yet know what Harmony really is.

For all we know it's a fragment of Glory wishing to replace the original, or the Glory of a different Mansus.

it's not even completely clear what GLORY Is, really, not in terms of specifics.

Also, I feel it's a pretty safe bet to assume ignorance is the problem here because for each of the endings the broad strokes path the Master gave us has been correct; get past the Tricuspid Gate and reach Glory, get to the House of the Moon and use it to reverse the decline of the Mansus, reach Harmony tell it about the Worms and teach it to hide.

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the only path they have been proven sort of correct has been Glory though.

He assumed Harmony is ignorant, and that it can be taught.

He assumed it's possible to switch the House of the Moon with the House of the Sun.


how? no idea. We only have an idea of how to reach them both, but that's it.


For Glory... well, that was obviously always going to be an option. Since Forever, "climbing the Mansus" has always been a valid solution.

 

[Iustus Vitea]

or the Glory of a different Mansus.

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One thing, there is no other Mansus there is only THE Mansus because the Histories spring from it.

how? no idea. We only have an idea of how to reach them both, but that's it.

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True but from a purely gameplay/meta perspective I'd assume my point holds.

 

[Pittauro]

One thing, there is no other Mansus there is not THE Mansus because the Histories spring from it.

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The Chandler is possibly one of the Hours. It has been attested by her Names that there are other worlds, with other Manses.

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[angelsadvocate666]

Other Manses exist, just not multiple Histories within one Mansus. Not in Esquestria, anyways.

 

[Iustus Vitea]

Wait my bad I meant other Glories. There is only one Glory.

I really don't know why I'm mixing so many things up today

 

[Pittauro]

If there's other Manses, there's other glories. A Mansus without a Glory is meaningless after all.


What the Chandler's blurb means is basically there there's other worlds out there completely separate from the one we know of.

It's not another History, which is sort of a parallel timeline. It's more like going to a different universe or setting, I imagine.

After all, the Outsiders have to come from somewhere. Unless that's just the term from beings coming from Nowhere.

uh. Could Discord just be the Name of a God-from-Nowhere?

 

[Iustus Vitea]

If there's other Manses, there's other glories. A Mansus without a Glory is meaningless after all.

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What I meant was that there is only the Glory and then there is the Mansus and from there are the Histories. There may be other Mansus but there is ever the single Glory because the Glory wasn't always there. I'm talking out CS and BoH lore here, the Glory wasn't always a thing after all, there was a time before and there may be a time after it. The other Mansus may have something like the Glory when even the Histories are so wildly divergent and it isn't a given there even are other Mansus because the Chandler is so steeped in mystery anything related to them is suspect.

Plus how would anyone ever figure out if such were true? Last I checked interstellar travel or visitors were not a thing in CS and even things that fell to Earth had Lores attributed to them. And if the other Glory was an alt earth setting then how would one get to it? Even Light needs a path to travel.

After all, the Outsiders have to come from somewhere. Unless that's just the term from beings coming from Nowhere.

uh. Could Discord just be the Name of a God-from-Nowhere?

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We've been over this before, if Outsider is a term for something from Nowhere then someone would've blown open the lock a while ago, Baldomare would've commented and one other argument that I can't remember right now.

 

[Shaper47]

Baldomare, to be fair, does NOT know if Harmony added similar defenses. She can't know. And the Elements of Harmony and Alicorns are able to deal with Worms in a way that seems beyond what the Lores could do, so again maybe the element virtues are meant to be a replacement better suited to deal with them.

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Who knows? Not us, that's who.

You know we could probably have an expedition to check on the wards. Baldomare to find them, Velvet Axe to take us there and Biedde to deal with any worns.

 

[Iustus Vitea]

Even if such an expedition was possible we are not doing it ever short of the Wards unraveling if we don't. No getting within a History of the fucking Worms

 

[Pittauro]

Who knows? Not us, that's who.

You know we could probably have an expedition to check on the wards. Baldomare to find them, Velvet Axe to take us there and Biedde to deal with any worns.

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While I like the idea, presumably Baldomare already checked (she mentioned she'd check, right?) and if they've hold on for this long, it's unlikely a few more months will make a difference, especially considering how damned BUSY we are.

We need to get the SH sacrament, ideally get forge and heart 4 (at least Forge, it's just an action!), do Frangiclave expedition, summon Biedde and Axe, deal with the aftermath of Luna's return (whatever that ends up looking like)... And those are basically the not-controversial things, what more or less everyone can agree on.

Then there's everything else.

 

[Iustus Vitea]

Do we have a free study action? Coulda sworn we did

 

[LieutenantSpirit]

on a side note, I probably would NOT take Family again. Family has been the largest malus for us.

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Given everything with Akulites, I'm surprised no one brought them up when Velvet was designed and the "family" option was chosen. Then again, reading through the posts back then, the pony aspect was the primary focus over anything involving Cultist Simulator.

I personally think that even with their "drain" on our actions, having a family has only helped the quality of the quest overall.

 

[Greymere]

While I like the idea, presumably Baldomare already checked (she mentioned she'd check, right?) and if they've hold on for this long, it's unlikely a few more months will make a difference, especially considering how damned BUSY we are.

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It also assumes that the wards are actually a single physical location and aren't just, like, diffuse metaphysical stuff. The closest I could think of would be the Dreamland w/ the cutie mark doors, and we've both already been there and generally avoid it for obvious reasons.

Do we have a free study action? Coulda sworn we did

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Nah, we have a free social action. Studying still takes an AP commitment.

 

[Shaper47]

While I like the idea, presumably Baldomare already checked (she mentioned she'd check, right?) and if they've hold on for this long, it's unlikely a few more months will make a difference, especially considering how damned BUSY we are.

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It would definitely be a long term thing but there could be interesting rewards.

The information alone is valuable and I'd expect high level Secret Histories and Heart scraps.

It also assumes that the wards are actually a single physical location and aren't just, like, diffuse metaphysical stuff. The closest I could think of would be the Dreamland w/ the cutie mark doors, and we've both already been there and generally avoid it for obvious reasons.

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That's why Velvet Axe would be needed to probably get to the location while Biedde should come along as protection.

 

[Pittauro]

Given everything with Akulites, I'm surprised no one brought them up when Velvet was designed and the "family" option was chosen. Then again, reading through the posts back then, the pony aspect was the primary focus over anything involving Cultist Simulator.

I personally think that even with their "drain" on our actions, having a family has only helped the quality of the quest overall.

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sure. As I said, good for the story, bad for our objectives.

It would definitely be a long term thing but there could be interesting rewards.

The information alone is valuable and I'd expect high level Secret Histories and Heart scraps.

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In that case we'd want to wait until we're done with the Sacrament anyway.

 

[Shaper47]

In that case we'd want to wait until we're done with the Sacrament anyway.

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Of course, it's a thought for long term afterall.

 

[Alan975]

Random thought that I'd like to add here.

Presumably, there will be no replays/save-scumming later on, so wouldn't it be fun to pivot to harmony? It is arguably the best option if we are to play this as morally righteous.

As much as reaching glory would fix things, we'd still have installed ourself as a tyrant.
Not to mention, getting to compare what we have in lore with the elements and perhaps even outplaying the princesses in their own game.

Would be a risk since we're "locked in"... but I'ts no fun if we just go along with that.


What's the worst that could happen? When the Wolf is backed into a corner, it'll still be on our side.

No matter what, we win.

So the only important question is how you all want to play, not how you need to play.

 

[Lorrie]

Presumably, there will be no replays/save-scumming later on, so wouldn't it be fun to pivot to harmony? It is arguably the best option if we are to play this as morally righteous.

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No not really, Glory is much more interesting than Harmony, and it's way too late to claim the moral high ground. Besides highly doubt reaching Harmony would fix Regrettable Actions and the longer we take the greater the risk of something happening that results in another being picked.

Also, in no way would reaching Glory make us a tyrant as we'd not be ruling over anyone as Hours are consigned to the Mansus.

 

[Darkday]

What's the worst that could happen? When the Wolf is backed into a corner, it'll still be on our side.

No matter what, we win.

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I envy this amount of optimism. While technically we can do a wolf victory whenever, considering the costs of that to the world I consider it a miserable fail state. Better than the worms and and little else. Something that other stories would dedicate themselves fully to preventing. I also have complete belief that if we truly mess around and act as if victory is assured Velvet will likely die or worse. We definitely can win and are in many ways a strong position but if you feel too confident consider that fact that the only reason we beat the master was because they honestly thought we were friendly and they were acting in our best interest if they had any suspicion of us they could have killed us pre wolf. This is by no means a won game.

 

[Lorrie]

Not to mention Harmony is the ending we have the least knowledge on, at least with the Moon we have the tower we can explore, while with Harmony we have one project we know very little about.

 

[Solace2117]

I'm all for dipping into Harmony for the same reason I don't mind exploring the tower that leads to the Moon. The lore is incredibly interesting and the potential to expand Velvet's power base to be able to deal with threats like the Master is never a bad thing. There's also the fact that I think Harmony is "good" and having some of its influence on Velvet when she reaches Glory could influence the world for the better, in the same way I think the more influence the Wolf has, the darker the ending will be.
Realistically Glory is the best option. For one we are much closer and in the end stopping the worms is what matters. Glory is the most powerful force, and I think our decisions will influence the nature of what reaching it means
For two we've been told the Harmony ending involves dimming the lights. We don't really know what that means, but it doesn't sound overall positive.
Though I do think the thread at times tends to underestimate Harmony. It's not Glory, but neither is the Wolf. I think the thread has a bit of recency bias because we've seen so much of the Wolf and little of Harmony.

 

[Iustus Vitea]

If we kill the Outsider and there is no large ritual we have to get the mats for then I suppose we could stick around a turn or two (of course if we do we aren't opening the bloody Gate) to explore the other options but we can't pivot away from Glory at this point. There is no path left to us but it, it would take more actions and thus turns then I'm comfortable with to actually get either ending.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

Dude Harmony doesn't even know the Worms exist so that doesn't track, also I would like to once again point out the fact those are lesser Worms.

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I don't think the Worm that made Nightmare Moon was a lesser Worm.