Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[IronHydra]

I wouldn't mind us losing most of our remaining morals

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That's a shame. I do have qualms with that.

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I enjoy Velvet having morals, and trying to keep to them as much as possible, but I like it as we watch them slowly crumble and erode due to her climbing the Mansus, one of my main factors of enjoyment out of this quest is the descent she undergoes in order to ascend. I think it's a really tragic but meaningful story. She'll keep by those she loves most, but when it comes down to it, anyone who's not a part of her Coven and Family, she may be willing to do anything, sacrifice almost anything for her goals. Sure, she'll try to do what's right and honest when possible, but the level to which she'll go is nigh bottomless. Willingly scarring the world for their and her sake.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

She only had normal human kids, their are probably ways to do this.


GM said that Velvet will have nothing to do with Twilight anymore. So at best she becomes Celestias personal Inquisitor, with the personal task of taking down Velvet, at worse she embraces the Wolf.

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Due to being Above All Doubt, I don't think Celestia will be tasking anyone with taking down Velvet. She checks us with Lantern herself for that.

 

[Pittauro]

While I could be potentially convinced to go for the cannibalism thing (though only if we're in an emergency), I agree that I don't want Velvet's mortals to erode that much further than they've already have. If nothing else, I think the story would lose a lot of its impact if morality stopped mattering and the quest devolved into a string of endless petty opportunism.

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yeah. the Grail Sacrament is probably the one I'm most hesitant with (not counting the Wolf's).

I mean, We just found out that a Sacrament is a deep change of your most inner self, a sacrifice.

WHAT will we be sacrificing and changing when taking part in Mareinette's "dinner"?

Even the Winter Sacrament is likely only about an understanding and probably "acceptance" of death, but I worry what the result of the cannibalism sacrament will be like.

Remember that Celestia ocasionally has visions of the future and that she was the one to free Nightmare Moon, in canon atleast.

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that's actually not canon. She has ONE "potential" vision that I can remember (Tirek), and it was probably not about the future but the present.

Her being the one to free Nightmare Moon is very much fanon, as well as the "she gets visions of the future" thing.

It's a valid read, but it's NOT explicitly canon.

 

[Rafuki22]

Her being the one to free Nightmare Moon is very much fanon, as well as the "she gets visions of the future" thing.

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...I looked it up and Lauren Faust literally confirmed it on twitter...

Watch the episode again ---- the stars aligned in a perfect pattern that allowed her escape. And who controls the sun and the moon and the stars...?

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Fair on the future sight.

WHAT will we be sacrificing and changing when taking part in Mareinette's "dinner"?

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Still willing to do it.

 

[Bakkasama]

Alternatively (and I am just mentioning this option for completion's sake), we could replace the Twilights to gain a confidant and then use her to either do the Moth or Grail sacrament. So Spoiled Rich for Moth Sacrament and then Rarity, Twilight and either Jade or Fluttershy for Grail. Since it makes it so that they will never leave us that let's us level up Rarity's grail without risking her turning on us if she somehow matches our leveland discover our unmoral dealings.

 

[Rafuki22]

Since it makes it so that they will never leave us that let's us level up Rarity's grail without risking her turning on us if she somehow matches our leveland discover our unmoral dealings.

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Doing All In without a befriended Mareinette is probably too dangerous, and we befriend her with her Grail Sacrament, not Velvet.

 

[DelightedOne]

I know it sounds unconventional but if we are not willing to befriend Mareinette could we... kill her as a RA like with the Master? I think it would fit.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

I know it sounds unconventional but if we are not willing to befriend Mareinette could we... kill her as a RA like with the Master? I think it would fit.

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RA are just a mortal doing stuff with mortal power, If something that minor could kill Mareinette she would have died a long long time ago.

 

[DelightedOne]

RA are just a mortal doing stuff with mortal power, If something that minor could kill Mareinette she would have died a long long time ago.

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Noooo? The Regrettable Actions explicitly use the power of the Wolf Divided, an Hour.

 

[Rafuki22]

RA are just a mortal doing stuff with mortal power,

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Wut? Breaking the Door? Turning to Ash what was once the Master? With mortal power?

 

[OurLadyOfWires]

Is this the dreaded thread insanity people talk about?

 

[Venerable Ro]

@OurLadyOfWires, why yes, yes it is. Thank you for bringing this blessing upon our House.

 

[Witherbrine2671]

Probably.

Anyway, can't wait to see how Daughter of Axes reacts to us returning. She's a great character and I love piecing together what the hell she says, reading her creative language.

 

[Solace2117]

I've enjoyed this arc, the fun high school scenes and learning about Ace's sister, but the Twilight stuff has been exhausting. Despite how difficult it was I enjoyed the Master RA debate, it had stakes and real meaning. This just feels unnecessary. Will it hurt human Twilight if we leave, yes, but we didn't guarantee Velvet could bring her. If Harmony supposedly can help one Twilight then the other will be fine. She's in high school, she'll graduate and life will move on.
What is she actually going to do other then try and fill the Twilight shaped hole of guilt Velvet feels. We're near the end game, we have more important things to focus on.

As to pony Twilight, Velvet isn't doing this for her benefit. She's choosing to traumatize her again for her own gain. It's inherently selfish. Also I don't understand the fear mongering there. The Wolf cult may be a threat, but the Wolf isn't. It doesn't care and if anything seems to favor Velvet as much as it can. If people are that worried get stronger. We've been told if you want to avoid unexpected threats, be strong enough to stop them. That means befriending Names, sacraments, and climbing.

I'd really like to do Uncle Steppes FO. I genuinely enjoy his character and want to see more. If the threats are that imminent, scry for a level 7 book, vote for a sacrament, attempt to understand an artifact. Do things that help with the goal. We need to stop digging at old wounds. If there's something that can actually help in the future, fine, but it's not now and Glory is in reach. Velvet doesn't need a new Twilight to play with.

 

[Flaregamer82253]

I know it sounds unconventional but if we are not willing to befriend Mareinette could we... kill her as a RA like with the Master? I think it would fit.

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I mean, the thing with the Master is that we explicitly got him because we surprised him. Marinette probably knows that we killed the Master that way. We probably won't get a second chance.

Also, there's the whole using the Wolf to kill the greatest Name/peak of Grail left. You know, the lore that encompasses passion, desire, blood, and love. Do we really want to touch that with a Wolf that will be stronger than all those previous?

 

[OurLadyOfWires]

In other news, wow, I did not realize it was already Thursday. This week has been hectic, and it's still far from over.

However, let's put a deadline for this particular matter, yes?

Voting will close in approximately 24. Or "whenever I am available tomorrow night to close it".

Good evening everyone.

 

[Pittauro]

...I looked it up and Lauren Faust literally confirmed it on twitter...

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Lauren Faust was also not involved past season... 2 I think? If I remember right she was not the one to come up with Twilight's ascension either, she was planning for Celestia to be a bit more "divine" that she turned out to be in the end.

Basically many things she was planning either never happened or were retconned. Can you point out to anywhere in the show BESIDE the Tirek vision where it's mentioned she can see the future? I can't.

Again, it's a valid read, and I can easily believe it's what Lauren Faust planned, but I think it wasn't explicitly canon from what's shown in the cartoon itself.

I thought you were commenting on the future sight, not the stars thing. That's fair, and hey, someone had to come up with the 1000 years prophecy... It makes sense that was planted for Twilight to find. Unless it was retconned later on (but I don't think they ever talk about it, so...)

Honestly I've always been annoyed they never talked about it. That Twilight never asked more questions about what Celestia's plan was, and why.

Doing All In without a befriended Mareinette is probably too dangerous, and we befriend her with her Grail Sacrament, not Velvet.

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eh, between (hopefully) Baldomare and Axe, and ideally a few mares-in-the-mirror we can equip with other studied artifacts, Mareinette would definitely help but is NOT necessary.

I know it sounds unconventional but if we are not willing to befriend Mareinette could we... kill her as a RA like with the Master? I think it would fit.

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I think that in the right (or wrong) situation that COULD happen, but it would require special circumstances.

When we killed the master we narratively basically led him into the perfect trap before unleashing the Wolf. It would take special circumstances for us to get an RA to kill Mareinette, I think.

I mean, the thing with the Master is that we explicitly got him because we surprised him. Marinette probably knows that we killed the Master that way. We probably won't get a second chance.

Also, there's the whole using the Wolf to kill the greatest Name/peak of Grail left. You know, the lore that encompasses passion, desire, blood, and love. Do we really want to touch that with a Wolf that will be stronger than all those previous?

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oh, that too. We already corrupted "the fear of the dark" from "fear of the unknown" to "fear of the teeth and claws of the wolf"

I'd rather not repeat that.

 

[holylemonaple]

[X] Return home, with Diary and Frangiclave, and fulfill your bargain with the Daughter-of-Axes. (End the dream, and redistribute your remaining action points.)

I like the idea of a Velvet with... something approaching morals.

Wait. I already voted.

 

[DelightedOne]

[] Return home, with Diary and Frangiclave, and fulfill your bargain with the Daughter-of-Axes. (End the dream, and redistribute your remaining action points.)

I like the idea of a Velvet with... something approaching morals.

Wait. I already voted.

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You do know you can change your mind and vote for something else, right? I'm asking because you were going to vote differently than your original vote.

 

[holylemonaple]

...Huh. Didn't know that was a thing that was allowed; thought once you voted you had Voted. Thanks for telling me

 

[Solace2117]

I think to kill Matrinette with an RA we'd have to lure her to the Manse. I don't normally agree with Shaper, but it might be worth pursuing heart. If her heart sacrament befriends her like the grail it might be worth exploring. She's a complicated character and if her grail sacrament leans into her worst parts, her heart may lean into her best and be more in line with the morals we ascribe to. No guarantee, but may be worth trying.

 

[Pittauro]

...Huh. Didn't know that was a thing that was allowed; thought once you voted you had Voted. Thanks for telling me

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Nah, the tally will automatically only pick up your most recent vote with the standard settings, so you can change your mind as many times as you wish to. You just need to make a new post with a vote, (or edit an older one, though new post is usually preferred )

 

[Steady Gaze]

…huh, I'm not too late. And the thread has really gone while I was gone. I've said (1, 2, 3) most of what I wanted to say before. People don't seem to be incorporating the uncertainty of outcomes in their calculus or incorporating that much nuance into their views. But I guess that's arguing on the Internet for you.

My guys, I love player agency as much as the next person. But I need you to understand the Twilight boat sailed away a long, long time ago.

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In short, "no". I have no desire to let pony!Velvet readdress pony!Twilight back in Equestria, if you decide not to do the switch.

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Yep, that's what I've been trying to say.

There's been a whole lot of people getting on their high horse about the morality and how terrible and selfish it would be to do the Twilight swap, but I haven't seen anyone actually answer the questions I posed a while back. What, precisely and exactly, is the plan for helping Twilight's problems if we leave her in Equestria? How many resources will we devote, and will we see it through in the face of chaotic events and demands on our limited time? Until these are answered, I continue to view leaving her in Equestria as simply a way to ignore the problem and kick the can down the road until it's too late, all the while pretending our hands are cleaner this way.

The fact is, here she'd be in a society where psychotherapy has become an actual scientific discipline, as well as being surrounded by people who genuinely love her, even if they don't believe what she may say about ponies and magic. People who would actually be there for her, not just "maybe Cadence will drop by when her duties bring her into the same town." And giving her a clean separation from magic might well be healthier for her than leaving her there struggling to open a door with a splintered horn stump. Putting Twilight here honestly seems like the more ethical choice than keeping her in Ponyville staring at the wall, alone, while we hope a deus ex machina someday somehow fixes it.

I frankly couldn't care less if people want to accuse Velvet of being selfish by doing this. If the ethical choice and the selfish choice are the same thing, Velvet can be as selfish as she wants and more power to her.

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I was maybe a bit too nice to say it this directly, but yep, I think you're right on the money. About Twilight's current chances, and about all the moralizing about "selfishness".

I enjoy Velvet having morals, and trying to keep to them as much as possible, but I like it as we watch them slowly crumble and erode due to her climbing the Mansus, one of my main factors of enjoyment out of this quest is the descent she undergoes in order to ascend. I think it's a really tragic but meaningful story. She'll keep by those she loves most, but when it comes down to it, anyone who's not a part of her Coven and Family, she may be willing to do anything, sacrifice almost anything for her goals. Sure, she'll try to do what's right and honest when possible, but the level to which she'll go is nigh bottomless. Willingly scarring the world for their and her sake.

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Yes! I had a couple related thoughts on this awhile ago (1, 2).

For the record, I voted against leashing Shining to have him do the proposal (assuming my memory didn't completely rewrite itself). Obviously, it is important for us to respect ponies' autonomy. In that situation, it just seemed to me that we were violating a pony's free will so that Cadance didn't have to be sad. I.e., to spare somepony's feelings. Whereas in this situation, violating somepony's autonomy has a chance to have greater (on balance, positive?) effects.

A lack of certainty is part of the game, but ultimately, you and I must make our decisions. The swap has higher positive variance in my opinion, so I vote for going home, a thaumonaut in tow. (And I kind of hope the QM finds this more interesting to write.) Or one more swing for Sunset Shimmer.

[X] Return home, with Diary, Frangiclave, and something else besides. Or rather, someone. (End the dream, bringing Twilight Sparkle with you, and redistribute your remaining action points.)
[X] They are young and impressionable. Thankfully, you are a responsible adult. (Hang out with Rarity and Fluttershy, your real-life confidantes)
[X] "Is there anything on your mind, Miss Jack?" (Approach Applejack)
[X] This place has a library. Go take a look.

 

[Solace2117]

e record, I voted against leashing Shining to have him do the proposal (assuming my memory didn't completely rewrite itself). Obviously, it is important for us to respect ponies' autonomy. In that situation, it just seemed to me that we were violating a pony's free will so that Cadance didn't have to be sad. I.e., to spare somepony's feelings. Whereas in this situation, violating somepony's autonomy has a chance to have greater (on balance, positive?)

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Look if you want to vote from a meta perspective that's fine. I wasn't here for the Shining vote so I don't have much to say one way or the other. We assume this world perfectly parallels ours and that there's good psychotherapy and family to support for her. There's no real evidence that Velvet knows this though, or that it's true. Realistically considering how Velvet experienced the world there's no guarantee it's even fully real. I don't necessarily think that's true, but considering the dream like nature it's possible. Even if it is real, Twilight might experience it like Velvet in which case it'll probably come off as a twisted parody which could cause her to spiral worse.

I've been viewing it more from a story perspective and from that view it comes off as worse then just selfish. For one the act itself. It's doubtful Twilight will come willingly. So essentially Velvet will need Axe to kidnap her and basically force her over so Velvet can bring the new Twilight over. Velvet is not doing this to help her. Velvet can't help her. As Ourladyofwires said there's nothing Velvet can do. This is replacing her, nothing more, nothing less. The fact it may help her, which I remain skeptical about but is possible, is an unintended side effect or disingenuous justification on Velvet's part. It also speaks to an unhealthy obsession on Velvet's part. It's essentially Velvet saying she wants Twilight back and since the current one is broken, she'll toss it out and replace it.

And ultimately for what, a confidant. Is that really that useful considering the effort needed for her to be truly useful, plus having to deal with any potential issues that arise. I doubt it'll be as simple as human Twilight comes over and immediately fits in with no suspicion. What else, a sense of accomplishment on Velvet's part that she finally "helped" a Twilight. If there was some greater good or even if it was helping one of her loved ones I could see it. Velvet doesn't know this Twilight, she has no connection to her. She's not a friend, she's a reflection of what used to be before events broke her, events Velvet played a part in. Velvet wants that Twilight back, but it's never going to happen and human Twilight can never really be her.

Sorry for the long rant. I think I'm done over analyzing fictional ponies in eldritch settings for the night.

 

[spiderhellian]

Alternatively (and I am just mentioning this option for completion's sake), we could replace the Twilights to gain a confidant and then use her to either do the Moth or Grail sacrament. So Spoiled Rich for Moth Sacrament and then Rarity, Twilight and either Jade or Fluttershy for Grail. Since it makes it so that they will never leave us that let's us level up Rarity's grail without risking her turning on us if she somehow matches our leveland discover our unmoral dealings.

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Hahahahahaha this would be the funniest outcome. This way nobody is happy! Bringing Twilight home for dinner…

And ultimately for what, a confidant. Is that really that useful considering the effort needed for her to be truly useful, plus having to deal with any potential issues that arise

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Just for the record, we did use a Name's action to grab a Risen this turn, because the alternative was missing out on a spare Velvet AP. Or using the leash, lol.

So this turn, Twilight would have meant a Biedde action. We have no idea what other capabilities, it any, she'd have, but it would be helpful with getting the cover your bases at least.